Australia Australia - Lynette Dawson, 34, Sydney, Jan 1982 *Arrest*

[DRT]

Dear Al,

Points 1 through to 5 can be easily answered, and authoritively so , at this website...

Australasian Legal Information Institute

This will save people from endlessly typing and arguing, and you wont have to take the word of contributors whom you regard as
'confused'.

May I add one thing? It's a small thing, not major, it's point 4.

Does an Australian coroner retain the power to name a suspect in an inquest or has that power (as in the UK) been abolished. If it is retained, has it been used in previous recent cases?

This is your question.. But I already answered it for you <modsnip - personalizing>. I informed you that not one, but two coronial inquest had taken place and that both Coroners named Chris Dawson as the major suspect.

Now.. as you see, this will answer point 4. you can now be absolutely certain that , yes, indeedy, an AUstralian Coroner does retain the power to name a suspect in an inquest .

If it is retained, has it been used in previous recent cases? Yes, it has, as a short interlude of you reading the AustLi sight will make perfectly plain to you...… you will find many instances. Because , guess what, that power has been retained by the Coronial Court in Au.

So.. you see, there are similarities, and there are differences, as I pointed out to you already. <modsnip - condescending>

It is a matter of luck if your 'points' you raise are addressed... some people may not feel inclined to bother, some may be too busy to respond, some people may find the points you raise as irrelevant to their perspective of the matter. <modsip - condescending>

In addition to your points:

The Two Coroners in this case did everything according to the letter.
The 2001 Coroners stopped the proceedings when they felt there was enough evidence to refer a "known person" to the Director of Public Prosecutions.

After the referral and review the DPP made the decision that the evidence was not tested because there were no interviews. The second coronial inquest approximately 2 years later interviewed 20 witnesses. The second coroner made the decision that a known person should be referred for murder to the DPP.

The Coroner's role

"Power to refer to Director of Public Prosecutions

The Coroner cannot find someone guilty of a crime. If, at any time during the course of an inquest or inquiry, the Coroner forms an opinion that a known person has committed an indictable offence in connection with the death the Coroner is required to suspend the inquest or inquiry and refer the matter to the Director of Public Prosecutions. It is entirely a matter for the Director of Public Prosecutions to determine whether charges should be laid against the person, and a matter for the criminal courts to determine whether the person is guilty.

Similarly, the Coroner cannot determine civil liability, although the Coroner’s finding may be relied upon in subsequent civil proceedings and/or insurance claims."

Prosecution Guidelines | The Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions
"
Guideline 12
Reasons for decisions made in the course of prosecutions or of giving advice, in appropriate circumstances, may be disclosed by the Director to persons outside the ODPP. Reasons will not be given in any case, however, where to do so may cause serious undue harm to a victim, a witness or an accused person, or could significantly prejudice the administration of justice.

Generally the disclosure of reasons for prosecution decisions is consistent with the open and accountable operations of the ODPP; however, the terms of advice given to or by the Director may be subject to legal professional privilege and privacy considerations may arise. Reasons will only be given to an inquirer with a legitimate interest in the matter and where it is otherwise appropriate to do so. A legitimate interest includes the interest of the media in reporting the open dispensing of justice where previous proceedings have been public.

Reasons for not proceeding with a prosecution where committal proceedings or an inquest has taken place may be given by the Director.

Where there have been no prior public proceedings and a decision is made not to commence or continue a prosecution, reasons may also be given by the Director. However, where it would mean publishing material assessed as not having sufficient evidentiary value to justify prosecution, only a brief explanation may be given.

Detailed reasons will not normally be given publicly for the decision to appeal or not to appeal against a sentence."




The decision of the Coroner in the 2003 coroner's inquest for your perusal @alb1on.
https://theaustralianatnewscorpau.files.wordpress.com/2018/08/2003inquestday5-compressed.pdf

One thing of note the DPP does not have to publicise their rulings.

 

[alb1on]

Thank you for the kind responses to my questions, although I see that only one has been answered specifically - that regarding the coroner role. I assume, therefore, that the respondents agree with my original, and principal, point that the time taken by the ODPP to reach decisions is entirely reasonable given their remit and the tests they must apply for proceeding to prosecution. I was, of course, entirely aware of the role of the ODPP and asked the question to flush out those who think it should act beyond its remit. I presume that is why the responses avoided that question. My original point would have been quite unnecessary had all posters refrained from criticising the ODPP for their delays.

On the role of the coroner, I also had an ulterior motive. I thought (although was not sure given the passage of time) that Australian coroners retained the right to name a suspect. However, I wanted to draw the comparison with the UK system where that right was abolished specifically because of the risk of prejudicing a future prosecution. You may say that the rules in one jurisdiction are irrelevant to those in another (and that is true in specific terms) but senior courts in the US, UK and (yes) Australia often cite practice and precedent from other jurisdictions. The risk of prejudice is an obvious area where Australia can learn from the UK (and I know that the reverse is also the case - such as the excellent laws in parts of Australia requiring people in specified roles to report certain offences when they become aware of them, which would be a very useful recommendation for the current Jay Inquiry in the UK ).

 

[Trooper]

double post!

 

[Trooper]

Thank you for the kind responses to my questions, although I see that only one has been answered specifically - that regarding the coroner role. I assume, therefore, that the respondents agree with my original, and principal, point that the time taken by the ODPP to reach decisions is entirely reasonable given their remit and the tests they must apply for proceeding to prosecution. I was, of course, entirely aware of the role of the ODPP and asked the question to flush out those who think it should act beyond its remit. I presume that is why the responses avoided that question. My original point would have been quite unnecessary had all posters refrained from criticising the ODPP for their delays.

On the role of the coroner, I also had an ulterior motive. I thought (although was not sure given the passage of time) that Australian coroners retained the right to name a suspect. However, I wanted to draw the comparison with the UK system where that right was abolished specifically because of the risk of prejudicing a future prosecution. You may say that the rules in one jurisdiction are irrelevant to those in another (and that is true in specific terms) but senior courts in the US, UK and (yes) Australia often cite practice and precedent from other jurisdictions. The risk of prejudice is an obvious area where Australia can learn from the UK (and I know that the reverse is also the case - such as the excellent laws in parts of Australia requiring people in specified roles to report certain offences when they become aware of them, which would be a very useful recommendation for the current Jay Inquiry in the UK ).

<modsnip - fix broken quote>

<modsnip - condescending, personalizing>

btw,, another small thing, not major, merely incidental.. .


'On the role of the coroner, I also had an ulterior motive. I thought (although was not sure given the passage of time) that Australian coroners retained the right to name a suspect. However, I wanted to draw the comparison with the UK system where that right was abolished specifically because of the risk of prejudicing a future prosecution. You may say that the rules in one jurisdiction are irrelevant to those in another (and that is true in specific terms) but senior courts in the US, UK and (yes) Australia often cite practice and precedent from other jurisdictions.

Bolded by me for clarification.

nooo.. No. They may mention, and certainly, in Au, and one presumes, in the UK, mention as an aside, ( it would have to be not in any adversarial matter, perhaps in an open Enquiry, on a State matter ) but cite... no.. that is a legal term carrying legal weight, and requiring a legal response, .. certainly, I can truly assure you, Al, that in any US court, to cite the shenanigans of any other system of justice, as practice and precedent would result in a dismissal.

Imagine, if you will , the furore if , say, the State Attorney , in , say, the New York Judgement, began to 'cite ' practice and precedence from the Napoleon Code used in the French court!.. utterly unimaginable. These things don't happen, and I am sure they don't happen in UK courts, however, show me the example and I'm happy to re think!!..

I don't have any ulterior motive here, I am merely curious about the angle of the questions you have posed <modsnip - condescending>.

Obviously, something has disturbed your outlook, and , just as obviously, as you mention it a lot, no one is responding with any answer that is satisfying to you.. perhaps your questions need re working, or you've just struck it unlucky in responders!! **** happens, you know.. that's life!.

 

[alb1on]

Kru

<modsnip - fix broken quote>

<modsnip - condescending, personalizing>

btw,, another small thing, not major, merely incidental.. .


'On the role of the coroner, I also had an ulterior motive. I thought (although was not sure given the passage of time) that Australian coroners retained the right to name a suspect. However, I wanted to draw the comparison with the UK system where that right was abolished specifically because of the risk of prejudicing a future prosecution. You may say that the rules in one jurisdiction are irrelevant to those in another (and that is true in specific terms) but senior courts in the US, UK and (yes) Australia often cite practice and precedent from other jurisdictions.

Bolded by me for clarification.

nooo.. No. They may mention, and certainly, in Au, and one presumes, in the UK, mention as an aside, ( it would have to be not in any adversarial matter, perhaps in an open Enquiry, on a State matter ) but cite... no.. that is a legal term carrying legal weight, and requiring a legal response, .. certainly, I can truly assure you, Al, that in any US court, to cite the shenanigans of any other system of justice, as practice and precedent would result in a dismissal.

Imagine, if you will , the furore if , say, the State Attorney , in , say, the New York Judgement, began to 'cite ' practice and precedence from the Napoleon Code used in the French court!.. utterly unimaginable. These things don't happen, and I am sure they don't happen in UK courts, however, show me the example and I'm happy to re think!!..

I don't have any ulterior motive here, I am merely curious about the angle of the questions you have posed <modsnip - condescending>.

Obviously, something has disturbed your outlook, and , just as obviously, as you mention it a lot, no one is responding with any answer that is satisfying to you.. perhaps your questions need re working, or you've just struck it unlucky in responders!! **** happens, you know.. that's life!.

Kruger-Dunning? Since you ask, <modsnip - personalizing>. On the specific issue of citation of foreign law, you clearly disagree (for example) with Ruth Bader Ginsburg. I imagine, given your expertise, that you are also aware that US courts may decide matters of international contracts applying the law of the jurisdiction specified in the contract. But you asked for a specific, so; Scalia in Roper v Simmons in 2005; 'we often consult English sources when asked to discern the meaning of a constitutional text'. In the same case Kennedy also discusses foreign law as background in his opinion. No one is suggesting foreign law would prevail where it is in direct conflict with domestic law, but it is often used to inform opinion where a case is less clear cut. Hope this helps.

 

[Trooper]

Kru


Kruger-Dunning? Since you ask, <modsnip - personalizing>. On the specific issue of citation of foreign law, you clearly disagree (for example) with Ruth Bader Ginsburg. I imagine, given your expertise, that you are also aware that US courts may decide matters of international contracts applying the law of the jurisdiction specified in the contract. But you asked for a specific, so; Scalia in Roper v Simmons in 2005; 'we often consult English sources when asked to discern the meaning of a constitutional text'. In the same case Kennedy also discusses foreign law as background in his opinion. No one is suggesting foreign law would prevail where it is in direct conflict with domestic law, but it is often used to inform opinion where a case is less clear cut. Hope this helps.

Cite, doesn't mean to consult, or to mention or to adhere to precedent . The term 'cite' means precisely not what you claim there,Al!... <modsnip - condescending> I think what you mean is , to advise, to confer, to conjugate,.... all in place, but not cite, cite means as underlining a ruling already in place, and having relevance to the jurisdiction .

But lets not get bogged down in trivia. Referencing a USA law was in error, as that isn't 'citing' … that is conferring. Hope that helps.


Tell me what ails you, what is the real problem you have and perhaps we can work thru it <modsnip - personalizing>

 

[k-mac]

wonder whats happening on the hedley front at the moment?

more importantly hopefully something good is cooking at the dpp

 

[Trooper]

wonder whats happening on the hedley front at the moment?

more importantly hopefully something good is cooking at the dpp

I am expecting a bit of an apology from Cowdery, and a bit of upheaval yet again in the DPP , (NSW)….. people going downstairs and people shifted upstairs, with all the time wasting that takes...

Hedley has not indicated any resumption of the yarn as yet , far as I know...

meanwhile, up in Runaway Bay...….

 

[k-mac]

I am expecting a bit of an apology from Cowdery, and a bit of upheaval yet again in the DPP , (NSW)….. people going downstairs and people shifted upstairs, with all the time wasting that takes...

Hedley has not indicated any resumption of the yarn as yet , far as I know...

meanwhile, up in Runaway Bay...….

yes all is quiet...…..everywhere

 

[DRT]

Getting back to the topic of this board Lyn Dawson. Lyn Dawson was an alleged victim of domestic violence. Bev McNally detailed she witnessed.

"Bev McNally, nee Staniforth, is the first person to report witnessing Mr Dawson’s rough physical treatment of Lyn, saying it was quickly covered up when the couple realised she was present."

"Her emotional account comes as other witnesses tell of seeing shocking bruises on Lyn’s neck, arms and legs."

Nocookies

In Australia this year there has been 38 women killed, 14 men killed and 17 children/teens killed as a result of relationship violence.

Death Toll of Violence in Australia 2018

Lyn's disappearance and death reported by the coroner by a known person is something that was never fully investigated at the time. Each of these victims is more than a statistic.

 

[Trooper]

Kru


Kruger-Dunning?

edited by me for brevity.

Al....no one thinks you are a Dunning-Kruger sufferer... you might get things back to front ,, though!! truly.. no one has said that, we welcome you, and think you are simply super and heaps smart and right up to speed with AU law and this case particularly, and we just couldn't do it without you....

howzat?

 

[k-mac]

have been listening to a new podcast at abc called unravel season 2. it is focused on the Barrenjoey rd rapes and suspected murder of Trudie adams in the 70's.
those here interested in lynettes case might find it interesting as it is the northern beaches area it highlights some interesting patterns and ideology of the times of the locals.
around this time of trudie's disappearance lyn and chris , paul and Marilyn would have been purchasing their land up here.

of course I find zero connection to what happened to lyn to this case but I found the can do (ahem.....) of the mona vale police department bumblings rather similar.

and also the national park is /was a treasure trove of suspected burials.
where I personally suspect lyn likely is.

there was a huge contingent looking for Trudie at Ku-ring-gai at the time.
locals (including incoming )would have been acutely aware of the isolation of their location.

Unravel Season 2 | Barrenjoey Road

i am only a few episodes in but feel its reasonably relevant to lyns case because it was happening in her neighbourhood in her time.
the lax investigations and the lax crime reporting by locals specifically.

jmo

 

[DRT]

have been listening to a new podcast at abc called unravel season 2. it is focused on the Barrenjoey rd rapes and suspected murder of Trudie adams in the 70's.
those here interested in lynettes case might find it interesting as it is the northern beaches area it highlights some interesting patterns and ideology of the times of the locals.
around this time of trudie's disappearance lyn and chris , paul and Marilyn would have been purchasing their land up here.

of course I find zero connection to what happened to lyn to this case but I found the can do (ahem.....) of the mona vale police department bumblings rather similar.

and also the national park is /was a treasure trove of suspected burials.
where I personally suspect lyn likely is.

there was a huge contingent looking for Trudie at Ku-ring-gai at the time.
locals (including incoming )would have been acutely aware of the isolation of their location.

Unravel Season 2 | Barrenjoey Road

i am only a few episodes in but feel its reasonably relevant to lyns case because it was happening in her neighbourhood in her time.
the lax investigations and the lax crime reporting by locals specifically.

jmo

I have been listening too. There is a thread for Trudie Adams which has a lot of the information in the podcast already.

Australia - Australia - Trudie Adams, 18, Avalon, NSW, 24 June 1978

There is also a documentary which seems to be the same as the podcast but has some of the visuals of the area.

The importance of questioning relevant people and getting evidence at the time someone goes missing is common in both cases.

The blaming the victim mentality as well. Marilyn saying "I wish Lyn had fought for her marriage" versus "they shouldn't have been hitchhiking".

 

[k-mac]

do you have a link or name of the documentary drt?

 

[Goosewhisperer]

do you have a link or name of the documentary drt?

I think that was on last night, just called Barrenjoey Rd

 

[DRT]

I think that was on last night, just called Barrenjoey Rd

Barrenjoey Road

Sorry I meant to paste it. This is the direct link to the iview. Then I got looking up something else.

 

[k-mac]

thanks guys
would you believe I was listening to the pods every spare sec I had yesty no idea the doco was on!!!

 

[Cagney&Lacey]

After watching the first episode of Barrenjoey Road and seeing the vast amount of dense bush land so close to Lyn’s neighbourhood I’m left believing it to be highly unlikely that Lynette’s body will ever be found. Needle-Haystack

The amount of publicity at the time of the disappearance of Trudie Adams and the rapes that had occurred in the National Park would have made locals acutely aware of the dangers that laid at their doorstep.

Scenario: Lyn has become nothing more than an obstacle standing between me and a amazing life with my sexy young ex-student. She pushed me to it and I’ve finally snapped and killed her in a rage. What the hell am I going to do with her body? I can’t call my brother for advice as he’s away. The kids are asleep in their beds. I can’t go far. ..... Lots of *advertiser censored* going on down Barrenjoey Road way and cops found nothing. It’s only 15 minutes away. Grab my shoes and shovel. Wrap her up in the doona, throw her in the car. I race off to dig a shallow grave, dispose of this problem and get back to the house before the kids wake up. I’ve got until morning to sort out what to say about her disappearance. I need to talk to Paul. What would he do?

 

[k-mac]

After watching the first episode of Barrenjoey Road and seeing the vast amount of dense bush land so close to Lyn’s neighbourhood I’m left believing it to be highly unlikely that Lynette’s body will ever be found. Needle-Haystack

The amount of publicity at the time of the disappearance of Trudie Adams and the rapes that had occurred in the National Park would have made locals acutely aware of the dangers that laid at their doorstep.

Scenario: Lyn has become nothing more than an obstacle standing between me and a amazing life with my sexy young ex-student. She pushed me to it and I’ve finally snapped and killed her in a rage. What the hell am I going to do with her body? I can’t call my brother for advice as he’s away. The kids are asleep in their beds. I can’t go far. ..... Lots of **** going on down Barrenjoey Road way and cops found nothing. It’s only 15 minutes away. Grab my shoes and shovel. Wrap her up in the doona, throw her in the car. I race off to dig a shallow grave, dispose of this problem and get back to the house before the kids wake up. I’ve got until morning to sort out what to say about her disappearance. I need to talk to Paul. What would he do?

yep
agree 100% c&l

 

[DRT]

The "lazy journalist" up for a 2018 Walkley award.

Nocookies

Another summary of the case.

What you should know before listening to the popular true crime podcast 'The Teacher's Pet'