Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, Jun 1997 #3

[Sophie-Renee]

I can’t imagine he was very well known. Didn’t he only play three games for Luxembourg? A soccer player who only plays three national games for their country would only be recognized by only a small % of people in my opinion. Maybe I have that three game thing wrong but that’s what I recall I read....

3rd Ed

I looked more into Fernands soccer career and it seems he only played about 4 international games and often on the subs bench. The rest were national and he only played between about 1967 and 1969. So as far as becoming well known goes, he would only be known in those countries in which he played against. Namely, Spain, Denmark and Belgium. I think he played against Switzerland at some point aswell. There were only a couple of these games in which I think he was called onto the game from the subs bench. Would need to look it up again. But as being internationally known goes, I don't think he really was.

 

[KiwiNZ]

3rd Ed

I looked more into Fernands soccer career and it seems he only played about 4 international games and often on the subs bench. The rest were national and he only played between about 1967 and 1969. So as far as becoming well known goes, he would only be known in those countries in which he played against. Namely, Spain, Denmark and Belgium. I think he played against Switzerland at some point aswell. There were only a couple of these games in which I think he was called onto the game from the subs bench. Would need to look it up again. But as being internationally known goes, I don't think he really was.

Sorry I didn’t say he was international known, I referenced his own country Luxemburg which is a small population, like New Zealand if you are someone whom has represented New Zealand in a popular sport even only on a few occasions you are generally known. Just saying it’s an increased risk of been caught out using a false passport to re-enter your own country when someone might recognise you.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

So, just reading through the latest posts .... no, I don't think Marion met anyone through online dating - from what I've heard in the podcast I feel Marion was more likely of the persuasion to build up a rapport with someone she met in person, and then let it progress from there ...... I've gone off the scientology theory and now thinking, h'mm, she has met with someone representing themselves in, shall we say, a false way, not unlike, err, Kelly's story ..... yep, there doesn't seem to have been a love interest, no sign of "I've just met the love of my life", yes, just a sense of urgency, but why ..... that is the question?
PS: I wish they'd give us a hint, however subtle, about the ad in the LA magazine that has proved to be of interest ..... ah well, there it is.
PS: Heading off now, won't be back, that's it for me. Cheers

 

[Sophie-Renee]

Sorry I didn’t say he was international known, I referenced his own country Luxemburg which is a small population, like New Zealand if you are someone whom has represented New Zealand in a popular sport even only on a few occasions you are generally known. Just saying it’s an increased risk of been caught out using a false passport to re-enter your own country when someone might recognise you.

Sorry I didn't mean to say that you did, but I agree that he only had about 3 or so games. Internationally anyway. He played for Union Luxembourg as a midfielder as far as home games went. Another look I had was into names of team mates.. not because I necessarily believe they were involved, but to see if he could have known one them who perhaps had rivalry with, or who knows.. Someone who admired fernands skills and looked up to him. Someone who had connections to Australia also perhaps. I doubt there is anything in it, but who knows. But you are right, because even if you are just known nationally it is still enough to not want to be caught. I really don't think fernand was involved.

 

[KiwiNZ]

Sorry I didn't mean to say that you did, but I agree that he only had about 3 or so games. Internationally anyway. He played for Union Luxembourg as a midfielder as far as home games went. Another look I had was into names of team mates.. not because I necessarily believe they were involved, but to see if he could have known one them who perhaps had rivalry with, or who knows.. Someone who admired fernands skills and looked up to him. Someone who had connections to Australia also perhaps. I doubt there is anything in it, but who knows. But you are right, because even if you are just known nationally it is still enough to not want to be caught. I really don't think fernand was involved.

I don’t think Fernand is involved either, I can’t see how he could have been in Aus if we accept what the police say about no Remakel entering the country, also having a telephone number in the ad suggests to me that the person was in the country and in lennox heads, majority of the other ads had either international contact details or the newspapers box. Fernand would have had to have a male accomplice to answer the phone, I just don’t see it.

But the Ad is so close to Fernand’s actual description, age etc... that there must be a link, as you say did someone in Australia pretend to be him. Kelly said GM insisted she go to Luxembourg and she felt he had been there before he knew his way around. But I am not totally sold on GM but think he is a much better lead them FR.

Then we have to link the Ad to Marion, I think she could have bought the French paper but the years between the ad and her changing her name without telling anyone about her Luxembourg friend seems od.

I am convinced Marion removed the money from her bank, why bring her back to Aus if only to kill her straight away and have another women remove the money, professional scammers know the law they get the victim to move the cash not them, that way they it’s diffcult to be prosecuted.

I think by the time Sally got on her trail and the bank made contact Marion possible either knew she had been scammed and was ashamed, or she had been told if she spoke to anyone about it she wouldn’t get her money back, which is a common control method the scammers use.

As for the name change I couldn’t think whom could benefit from this, but then realised that people like GM whom spend their life trying to evade police and Interpol know the benefit of traveling on a passport that’s not your name, nobody knows what country you are actually in and makes it impossible to trace you. But I don’t think the person was clever enough to know that your old name links in the immergration system. Scammer tend to travel on fake passports, not change their name, and I asssume getting Marion to travel on a fake passport would have been a difficult sell, Just a thought.

Where is all of Marion’s luggage that she left with ? Was all of the luggage Lesley dropped her off with actually hers or was it also her travelling companions ( if she had one) maybe he couldnt afford to be seen with luggage if he was skipping bail or something. Hopefully the airline still has a record of her flight information, weights for her luggage etc...

Maybe no one travelled with her, maybe she was used to smuggle drugs, GM had drug conviction, I don’t know so many possibilities so little clues.

Gosh this is complex lol

 

[Estelle]

Someone asked what is the point of Marion changing her name?

As far as the con man is concerned, changing her name meant changing her passport but did Marion change everything? Apparently, she did not change her name on the accounts when she sent money to the UK. Is that correct? And also the bank account here? I guess that was in Florabella.

Marion does not seem the type to travel alone overseas - hence perhaps why she asked Loveday to drop her off at the bus stop even though she had a lot of luggage. Good question someone asked where was her luggage left? Did it arrive back in Australia?

Advantages for con man of name change:
1. Nobody could track her movements as nobody knew she changed her name. So if Marion was murdered, it is unlikely she would be found.
2. Female con woman could use Marion's passport to return to Australia on her airline ticket using Marion's passport and withdraw money from her bank account.

What motivated Marion to change her name by deed poll?
1. It makes it look as if she wanted to disappear from family and friends forever but did she really want that?
2. Con man told her that people who are not married cannot share a room in hotels in Europe so you have to lie that you are married and wear a wedding ring but it is easier to "change your name to my surname. After all, we will be married soon, so why not change it now?"

 

[Meligator]

I

Someone asked what is the point of Marion changing her name?
As far as the con man is concerned, changing her name meant changing her passport but did Marion change everything? Apparently, she did not change her name on the accounts when she sent money to the UK. Is that correct? And also the bank account here? I guess that was in Florabella.

Marion does not seem the type to travel alone overseas - hence perhaps why she asked Loveday to drop her off at the bus stop even though she had a lot of luggage. Good question someone asked where was her luggage left? Did it arrive back in Australia?

Advantages for con man of name change:
1. Nobody could track her movements as nobody knew she changed her name. So if Marion was murdered, it is unlikely she would be found.
2. Female con woman could use Marion's passport to return to Australia on her airline ticket using Marion's passport and withdraw money from her bank account.

What motivated Marion to change her name by deed poll?
1. It makes it look as if she wanted to disappear from family and friends forever but did she really want that?
2. Con man told her that people who are not married cannot share a room in hotels in Europe so you have to lie that you are married and wear a wedding ring but it is easier to "change your name to my surname. After all, we will be married soon, so why not change it now?"

just because one Remakel ad was located in trove online, we can’t be certain that was the only Remakel ad. Maybe he (whoever placed the ad) put same ad in smaller, local newsletters, possibly closer to 1997. Just making the case that there may have been other ways Marion connected with this person.

 

[KiwiNZ]

Someone asked what is the point of Marion changing her name?

As far as the con man is concerned, changing her name meant changing her passport but did Marion change everything? Apparently, she did not change her name on the accounts when she sent money to the UK. Is that correct? And also the bank account here? I guess that was in Florabella.

Marion does not seem the type to travel alone overseas - hence perhaps why she asked Loveday to drop her off at the bus stop even though she had a lot of luggage. Good question someone asked where was her luggage left? Did it arrive back in Australia?

Advantages for con man of name change:
1. Nobody could track her movements as nobody knew she changed her name. So if Marion was murdered, it is unlikely she would be found.
2. Female con woman could use Marion's passport to return to Australia on her airline ticket using Marion's passport and withdraw money from her bank account.

What motivated Marion to change her name by deed poll?
1. It makes it look as if she wanted to disappear from family and friends forever but did she really want that?
2. Con man told her that people who are not married cannot share a room in hotels in Europe so you have to lie that you are married and wear a wedding ring but it is easier to "change your name to my surname. After all, we will be married soon, so why not change it now?"

Her bank account in Aus that she took the $5k per day was in the name Marion.

 

[Estelle]

Her bank account in Aus that she took the $5k per day was in the name Marion.

So how could the female accomplice get hold of Marion's bank details to be able withdraw the $5k per day?

If Marion had met this con man in Australia, he would have known that she sold her house and had a substantial amount in her bank account. Perhaps they went overseas together and he used another name unknown to Marion or he went before her.

When she was in England, she could have tried to access the money she sent there and was denied so she revealed that she had another bank account in Australia with funds there. So he then could have decided to hold her hostage in fear of her life while he searched her possessions finding bank statements, driver's licence, return airline ticket, Medicare card, passport, etc. Then he could organise his female accomplice who looked like Marion to use her airline ticket to return to Australia from Heathrow instead of Luxembourg (with date brought forward) to withdraw the money and to leave traces of her in Australia by accessing her bank account to put police off the track when Marion was somewhere else and about to be murdered perhaps.

I do think it is very strange that $5k was withdrawn every day in cash.

I decided to access the timeline at https://7news.com.au/original-fyi/t...line-of-marion-barters-disappearance-c-200848

These are excerpts:

1997

August 1: Marion phones Sally from Tunbridge Wells, England (late afternoon/early evening AEST)

Someone using a passport in the name Florabella Natalia Marion Remakel arrives at Sydney on a flight from London. Her passenger card claims she is married, living in Luxembourg, with the occupation ‘home duties’, and staying in Australia for three days.

IMO that is just to put family and police off the track but if this was the accomplice, she must have stayed at least 3-4 weeks but why didn't she withdraw all the money? If it was Marion, why didn't she just get a bank cheque as who would want to have all that cash in your possession when it would be safer in the bank? It makes more sense if an accomplice withdrew it or if it was Marion, she could have been under duress to give someone the money and they kept asking for more?

August – September: Over three and a half weeks, someone withdraws $5,000 every day from Marion’s Commonwealth Bank account at the Byron Bay branch and the Burleigh Heads branch on the Gold Coast.

(Marion's local Commonwealth bank branch would have been Southport so she would not have been known at those branches. I would predict that if the accomplice withdrew this money, she would have left Australia on her own passport 3-4 weeks later)

October: Sally receives a call from Byron Bay police, who tell her they had located Marion and she didn’t want anyone to know where she was or what she was doing.

(I read that this did not happen but why would police lie to Sally? If the accomplice had changed the contact details on the bank account and given a phone number, then the accomplice could have told the police that she did not wish anyone to know where she was and that was credible to them as Marion had changed her name)

March 18 1998: The SA Missing Persons Bureau writes to Jack Wilson claiming they spoke to a Police Missing Person’s officer, who in turn spoke with a security officer at Colonial State bank, who claimed Marion withdrew the balance of her account at the Ashmore branch on October 15, 1990, and 'spoke of starting a new life'.

(Could that date be incorrect? 1990?
1990
Marion and Ray divorce.

(If that date is correct, of course, Marion was going to start a new life after her divorce. She later got a job at Southport and transferred all her funds to the Commonwealth Bank at Southport. Ashmore is on the Gold Coast and is where Marion used to live) .

 

[madoodi]

What I still find really perplexing is the crime stoppers call mentioning Armidale. That was before Marion's disappearance was public knowledge, correct?

 

[KiwiNZ]

What I still find really perplexing is the crime stoppers call mentioning Armidale. That was before Marion's disappearance was public knowledge, correct?

No that date (2002) was incorrect and corrected by Sally but sorry I can not find the source to the new date

 

[Estelle]

What I still find really perplexing is the crime stoppers call mentioning Armidale. That was before Marion's disappearance was public knowledge, correct?

I think we need to go back to previous media reports to get the facts and sequences of events correct so will post what I have found.

Clues have linked Ms Barter to Grafton, Moree and Armidale – an anonymous call to Crime Stoppers in 2002 suggested she had been buried near the University of New England – but there has been no physical evidence to back-up the information.

There’s even the possibility that Ms Barter never returned to Australia and that she could have been the victim of identity theft.

This was reported in the media in February, 2013

Searching for clues to find missing mum

POST #225 Australia - Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #2

There is a big discrepancy in the podcast with what happened following the crimestoppers tip. Garry says he went to Armidale in 2010, went to the address supplied by the caller- that the name was bogus and the address was right, but the people had no idea what he was talking about. Garry says he spent two days searching for the site, identified the site, organised SES volunteers, took the volunteers and a cadaver dog to the site and searched for two days.

Sally says he searched for one day with the dog and the handler, in the rain. (Episode 5) Both accounts were played next to each other, with no clarification as to who has telling the correct account. Why the producers didn't find out, and edit accordingly is mystifying.

POST #226 There's another Marion (Sandford) on the NSW missing persons register. She went missing from Sydney's northern shores (Cammeray) in 1980. On the missing person register it says that Marion's Sandfords disappearance was investigated in connection with two other missing women in 2002. Perhaps it was this new avenue of investigation that generated the crimestoppers phone call in 2002 and the call relates to Marion Sandford not Marion Barter.

POST #228 Cammeray (North Shore) north of Sydney, could have been mistaken for Northern NSW. But I do wonder how it could end up in Marion's file, when the Marion Sandford was a declared missing person at the time and Marion wasn't, why wouldn't it go in the Marion Sandford file .... that's odd, isn't it, so maybe there was some other clue in the call linking it to Marion Barter?

POST #230 We haven't heard much detail about the call so perhaps there was something said that linked to Marion Barter. I was thinking that if the call to Crimestoppers referred to a Marion but didn't mention a surname so perhaps a record of the call was put with all files with the name Marion (both Sandford and Barter files) or perhaps that the call may have originally been investigated with Marion Sandford disappearance but was ruled out for some reason and then referred to the Marion Barter investigation (which might explain some of the delay in the follow up).

POST #223 . FROM SALLY "Mum went missing in 1997 - last known location Grafton Northern NSW The first magazine article I did was in 2004 Mum was only added to the NSW missing persons register in 2007 (not nationally) I started the Facebook page - Missing Person Marion Barter in 2013 SO! How did the person who called Crime Stoppers in 2002 who said “a woman by the name Marion who went missing from Northern NSW was buried in bush land in Armidale” know she was missing? If the case wasn’t publicised till 2004 how the hell did he know that a Marion was missing and last known to be at Grafton Northern NSW? The said location in Armidale that the male gave to Crime Stoppers 100% needs to fully searched including SES and volunteers happy to help! To think Det. Gary Sheehan found it on her file years later in 2010 and no one had previously acted on it!"

POST #235 Because the caller only mentioned Marion (with no surname) the police would have added the tip to every file associated with a Marion and also any unidentifieds in the area (and probably similar names too like Marilyn, Margret etc). That one crimestoppers call has probably been considered in relation to many cases simultaneously.

POST #236 VERBATIM FROM THE PODCAST. I've gone back to the podcast where the Crime Stoppers call is mentioned. It's in Episode 5 starting at 20.31:

POST #240 Based on this transcript, we don't have Gary confirming the tip came in in 2002. That date seems critical.

POST #249 We don't know that the crimestoppers call wasn't investigated at the time, just that it wasn't investigated in relation to Marion Barter at that time. The elderly couple may have been contacted by police several times over the call but Gary wouldn't be able to discuss other investigations when talking to the podcast/Sally. The podcast seem hellbent on portraying the police as negligent or disinterested but this is all based on assumption. The call is unlikely to relate to Marion, but the police have investigated it, this in itself should show the police have left not cut any corners or ignored any potential leads in looking for Marion.

POST #252 I think the crimestoppers tip would have been linked to the Sandford case (at least initially anyway) because she was actually listed as a missing person and her case was being highlighted at the time. I think it probably became part of the Barter investigation when a pre-Garry officer did a search of the database.

POST #257 apparently she studied in Wagga Wagga and not Armidale

POST #259 she also said the tip included "near the Uni and near a bike track". Looks like Gary had told her this perhaps over the phone

POST #261 this tip said "Marion who went missing from northern NSW" ... so Marion was living in Ashmore Queensland, worked at Southport Queensland ... how did they know Marion's last 'movements/whereabouts' were in northern NSW, Byron Bay, Grafton? Where Marion 'lived' was not northern NSW, as far as I can tell. If her disappearance was never reported in the media or press before 2002, as has been stated, that's also pretty interesting.

 

[madoodi]

I think we need to go back to previous media reports to get the facts and sequences of events correct so will post what I have found.

Clues have linked Ms Barter to Grafton, Moree and Armidale – an anonymous call to Crime Stoppers in 2002 suggested she had been buried near the University of New England – but there has been no physical evidence to back-up the information.

There’s even the possibility that Ms Barter never returned to Australia and that she could have been the victim of identity theft.

This was reported in the media in February, 2013

Searching for clues to find missing mum

POST #225 Australia - Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #2

There is a big discrepancy in the podcast with what happened following the crimestoppers tip. Garry says he went to Armidale in 2010, went to the address supplied by the caller- that the name was bogus and the address was right, but the people had no idea what he was talking about. Garry says he spent two days searching for the site, identified the site, organised SES volunteers, took the volunteers and a cadaver dog to the site and searched for two days.

Sally says he searched for one day with the dog and the handler, in the rain. (Episode 5) Both accounts were played next to each other, with no clarification as to who has telling the correct account. Why the producers didn't find out, and edit accordingly is mystifying.

POST #226 There's another Marion (Sandford) on the NSW missing persons register. She went missing from Sydney's northern shores (Cammeray) in 1980. On the missing person register it says that Marion's Sandfords disappearance was investigated in connection with two other missing women in 2002. Perhaps it was this new avenue of investigation that generated the crimestoppers phone call in 2002 and the call relates to Marion Sandford not Marion Barter.

POST #228 Cammeray (North Shore) north of Sydney, could have been mistaken for Northern NSW. But I do wonder how it could end up in Marion's file, when the Marion Sandford was a declared missing person at the time and Marion wasn't, why wouldn't it go in the Marion Sandford file .... that's odd, isn't it, so maybe there was some other clue in the call linking it to Marion Barter?

POST #230 We haven't heard much detail about the call so perhaps there was something said that linked to Marion Barter. I was thinking that if the call to Crimestoppers referred to a Marion but didn't mention a surname so perhaps a record of the call was put with all files with the name Marion (both Sandford and Barter files) or perhaps that the call may have originally been investigated with Marion Sandford disappearance but was ruled out for some reason and then referred to the Marion Barter investigation (which might explain some of the delay in the follow up).

POST #223 . FROM SALLY "Mum went missing in 1997 - last known location Grafton Northern NSW The first magazine article I did was in 2004 Mum was only added to the NSW missing persons register in 2007 (not nationally) I started the Facebook page - Missing Person Marion Barter in 2013 SO! How did the person who called Crime Stoppers in 2002 who said “a woman by the name Marion who went missing from Northern NSW was buried in bush land in Armidale” know she was missing? If the case wasn’t publicised till 2004 how the hell did he know that a Marion was missing and last known to be at Grafton Northern NSW? The said location in Armidale that the male gave to Crime Stoppers 100% needs to fully searched including SES and volunteers happy to help! To think Det. Gary Sheehan found it on her file years later in 2010 and no one had previously acted on it!"

POST #235 Because the caller only mentioned Marion (with no surname) the police would have added the tip to every file associated with a Marion and also any unidentifieds in the area (and probably similar names too like Marilyn, Margret etc). That one crimestoppers call has probably been considered in relation to many cases simultaneously.

POST #236 VERBATIM FROM THE PODCAST. I've gone back to the podcast where the Crime Stoppers call is mentioned. It's in Episode 5 starting at 20.31:

POST #240 Based on this transcript, we don't have Gary confirming the tip came in in 2002. That date seems critical.

POST #249 We don't know that the crimestoppers call wasn't investigated at the time, just that it wasn't investigated in relation to Marion Barter at that time. The elderly couple may have been contacted by police several times over the call but Gary wouldn't be able to discuss other investigations when talking to the podcast/Sally. The podcast seem hellbent on portraying the police as negligent or disinterested but this is all based on assumption. The call is unlikely to relate to Marion, but the police have investigated it, this in itself should show the police have left not cut any corners or ignored any potential leads in looking for Marion.

POST #252 I think the crimestoppers tip would have been linked to the Sandford case (at least initially anyway) because she was actually listed as a missing person and her case was being highlighted at the time. I think it probably became part of the Barter investigation when a pre-Garry officer did a search of the database.

POST #257 apparently she studied in Wagga Wagga and not Armidale

POST #259 she also said the tip included "near the Uni and near a bike track". Looks like Gary had told her this perhaps over the phone

POST #261 this tip said "Marion who went missing from northern NSW" ... so Marion was living in Ashmore Queensland, worked at Southport Queensland ... how did they know Marion's last 'movements/whereabouts' were in northern NSW, Byron Bay, Grafton? Where Marion 'lived' was not northern NSW, as far as I can tell. If her disappearance was never reported in the media or press before 2002, as has been stated, that's also pretty interesting.

So is the 2002 date correct Estelle?
If so, it is VERY VERY telling as how would the caller know any of those details about Marion?

 

[KiwiNZ]

So is the 2002 date correct Estelle?
If so, it is VERY VERY telling as how would the caller know any of those details about Marion?

I was sure they updated the tip date to 2007 but I can’t find the Refrence, maybe I just dreamt it lol, I will ask onthe Facebook page for them to confirm the date.

 

[Estelle]

I still suspect that this case is one of identity theft and the Crime Stoppers caller did not mention Marion's surname so it was probably about another Marion.

 

[madoodi]

With all the talk about cults in this case, I was intrigued by this article about the cult, Twelve Tribes in NSW.
Cult Twelve Tribe's headquarters searched for human remains
The police are digging on their properties for human remains, it seems most likely babies as a result of stillbirths.
What's interesting is that, like with other cults, you have to give up your possessions upon joining and it only started in the 1990s in Australia.
Is this a cult that has been explored in Marion's case?

IMO

 

[Deleted member 249471]

With all the talk about cults in this case, I was intrigued by this article about the cult, Twelve Tribes in NSW.
Cult Twelve Tribe's headquarters searched for human remains
The police are digging on their properties for human remains, it seems most likely babies as a result of stillbirths.
What's interesting is that, like with other cults, you have to give up your possessions upon joining and it only started in the 1990s in Australia.
Is this a cult that has been explored in Marion's case?

IMO

Not sure, but I'm curious about how a cult involvement fits into Marion's timeline. I can't make sense of it but maybe someone else can?

Cults are creepy for sure, but how does it relate to Marion's case, specifically? Otherwise it's a theory as plausible as Marion fell down a manhole.

 

[Sophie-Renee]

Boards seem to have gone quiet for weeks. I know there have been no more updates, half expected it to have been busier with people being at home. Hope all keeping well, any more theories?

 

[sunnynz]

Boards seem to have gone quiet for weeks. I know there have been no more updates, half expected it to have been busier with people being at home. Hope all keeping well, any more theories?

I’ve found websleuths has gone quiet overall.

 

[bje111]

Boards seem to have gone quiet for weeks. I know there have been no more updates, half expected it to have been busier with people being at home. Hope all keeping well, any more theories?

Hi, I would says it’s because we’re all in shock due to CV19??? My brain has been rendered useless right now.

I believe that Sally & ch7 team have a new podcast episode being released on Monday. Will be interesting to hear about any developments that have occurred since their last episode