Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, Jun 1997 #4

[Estelle]

Whatever happened to Marion, I really think she believed she was in some kind of danger related to Luke Glover. He was making terrible accusations of her being inappropriate with boys & of stealing. There may have been someone else involved in her disappearance—taking advantage of her vulnerability/fear—but she definitely had TSS on her mind.

It sounds like a typical case of workplace bullying.

 

[Laughing]

I'm in both camps, sometimes at the same time

@TootsieFootsie, we can share a tent here in both camps....

image from pinterest.com

 

[TootsieFootsie]

No creepy crawlies around I hope

When I was a child, I refused to sleep in our big tent one night when we went camping, because there were HUGE spiders crawling everywhere. I slept in the car with all the windows closed. Middle of summer, it was sweltering. We moved on next day, no spiders yay!

@TootsieFootsie, we can share a tent here in both camps....

 

[Meligator]

If Marion did act alone, she did a really good job at covering all her tracks—and he actions just seem like something that would require a lot of methodical planning and specialized expertise. And that level preplanning seems inconsistent with how she was described before her trip as “frantic,” and “exhausted.” Little details like sending letter on Tokyo stationary - when we now know she traveled through South Korea (and may or may not have gone through Japan) is just so such a clever misdirection. Where would she get the skills/knowledge to successfully disappear completely into thin air? Especially if emotionally distraught.

I think it is critical to see who were passengers on the flight when she left AU in June (was there someone she didn’t want Lesley Loveday to see at the airport). Also, what happened when she landed in South Korea. Did she actually go from there to Japan and then to UK? AU keeps copies of passenger cards, so there is a chance that other countries keep similar.

 

[SaintGertrude]

What if Marion stayed at Hallwood Farm Oast House bed and breakfast which has direct access to Bedgebury Forest. A beautiful place to stay from looking at the brochure but once in the forest if alone some foul play may have happened to Marion. The Forest has had two unsolved murders happen there so far .

 

[SaintGertrude]

I’m confused about something mentioned in the newest podcast. They mention not being able to verify a trip Marion possibly took over Christmas (1995 I think) with her then partner. Who is claiming that Marion went on this trip? Also, it wasn’t clear to me if records weren’t available because that particular type of travel record isn’t retained this long—or if a record of that trip should be available, but just couldn’t be found. I don’t recall anything about this supposed trip and how it relates to anything.

In the Inquest part one episode of podcast they mention that Marion used some kind of travel document to go to Norfolk Island at the end of 1995. There was no confirmation of anyone else including her male companion at the time travelling with her. I just looked up Norfolk Island and it does seem a bit of a tax haven. Before 2015 it appears that only people born on the island could buy land there. It seems quite relaxed on passports with Australian Citizens who need photographic identification. (I am not sure what the situation was prior to 2016 though). Passports
There is always the chance that Marion went back to Norfolk Island under her new name of Florabella Natalia Mario Remakel in 1997 after drawing out her savings and had some kind of contact there.

 

[Meligator]

So just re-listened to some of most recent podcast. If I'm understanding correctly, the police notes include mention of an FP named John Lewis in Brisbane (Not sure what FP stands for. Financial Planner?) & Westpac. These details are new to me, unless I'm forgetting something. Could Marion have withdrawn her money then transferred, as cash, into a bank in Brisbane?

It also sounded like Marion's Byron Bay account had been put on hold BEFORE Sally went to the bank (although bank did not tell Sally at the time). Could Byron Bay bank have done some investigative work on Marion's account before Sally went to the bank? Maybe those details (westpac, john lewis) were provided by BB bank to the police. Anyhow, was relevant enough for police to make a note of it at the time.

 

[SaintGertrude]

Alfriston Postcard from Sally's Craft and gift centre, High Street, Alfriston reads as far as I can make out as follows:-
"Thinking of you as I explored the quaint little shop on my tour of this historic village of Alfriston. Feeling more refreshed, so much beauty and antiquity everywhere so I am in my element. Next stop Amsterdam.
I hope it wasn't too much getting those things to J H especially the scales. Sally you are a kind daughter.
Have seen my first red squirrel and rabbits everywhere in the fields. The strawberry's taste delicious so do the raspberries. Lots of love to you both xx

 

[SaintGertrude]

If Marion saw red squirrels it’s unlikely to have been in Kent. There haven’t been any red squirrels in Kent for a long time. They’re mainly in the north Cumbria/Scotland and in the south on Brownsea Island and Isle of Wight.

Correct so she must have gone to one of these places on her travels to see red squirrels. Top places to spot red squirrels

 

[brjakj]

Just looking at the letter to sally on the Narita Japan paper. It states “…my big suitcase into luggage hold before setting out on my train journey north to Tunbridge wells and a quaint little hotel offering old fashioned rooms and glitter designs.

Isn’t Tunbridge wells south of Heathrow? If so, where would this luggage hold be given Marion travelled north to Tunbridge wells on a train?

also the clue about the hotel having old fashioned rooms and “glitter designs” may help narrowing down where she was staying.

 

[vivienbee]

@TootsieFootsie, we can share a tent here in both camps....

image from pinterest.com

I will join, I have no idea what to think.

 

[vivienbee]

You know, I don't think this would have been an issue. I really don't think that in 1997 people were registered when entering or visiting the UK. I'm also pretty sure that visas weren't connected to actual visits, it was enough to just have the stamp in your passport. I know security in Australia is much stricter.

I also think if you are going to murder someone and steal their money it's quite likely that you wouldn't care too much about doing illegal stuff.

You're definitely right about this part to be fair, there wouldn't have been as many visa issues back then. I wrote my post incredibly sleep deprived so I wasn't really thinking clearly about that.

 

[PhilOlivettifan]

Whatever happened to Marion, I really think she believed she was in some kind of danger related to Luke Glover. He was making terrible accusations of her being inappropriate with boys & of stealing. There may have been someone else involved in her disappearance—taking advantage of her vulnerability/fear—but she definitely had TSS on her mind.

Not doubting but I must have missed something - what is the evidence that it was Luke Glover who was making accusations of Marion being inappropriate with the boys and stealing?

The only thing that points to that is that the Teacher's Aide made a report. The school seems to have acted appropriately and in a measured way because we heard on TLV (in an early episode) from that senior teacher who would visit Marion and provided her with moral support, practical advice and companionship.

I have not heard any evidence about Luke Glover other than he got on with Marion when nobody else seemed to, but something may have cooled.

 

[PhilOlivettifan]

I

It sounds like a typical case of workplace bullying.

It does sound like that, but this is so much more when you are a teacher. If these accusations were real and stuck, she could no longer work in either the private or public sector. They are very, very serious indeed. It is much more than just emotional blackmail or making one feel marginalised.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

What if Marion stayed at Hallwood Farm Oast House bed and breakfast which has direct access to Bedgebury Forest. A beautiful place to stay from looking at the brochure but once in the forest if alone some foul play may have happened to Marion. The Forest has had two unsolved murders happen there so far .

Wow, snap, crackle and pop ..... I was just this minute looking at Hallwood Farm Oast on Trove!! Was thinking, "I bet Marion stayed there", it's absolutely gorgeous. The link below takes us back to 2002, so getting close to when Marion was in the UK. There's also some links to other accommodation on the page too which is pretty interesting.
Bed and Breakfast Accommodation in and Around Cranbrook, Kent, UK.

***Random thought .... wouldn't it be great if they made a documentary of the police investigating The Lady Vanishes Podcast leads ..... is that greedy of me, maybe, but it would be good, hey, to follow along with that part of the investigation. MOO

 

[SaintGertrude]

Wow, snap, crackle and pop ..... I was just this minute looking at Hallwood Farm Oast on Trove!! Was thinking, "I bet Marion stayed there", it's absolutely gorgeous. The link below takes us back to 2002, so getting close to when Marion was in the UK. There's also some links to other accommodation on the page too which is pretty interesting.
Bed and Breakfast Accommodation in and Around Cranbrook, Kent, UK.

***Random thought .... wouldn't it be great if they made a documentary of the police investigating The Lady Vanishes Podcast leads ..... is that greedy of me, maybe, but it would be good, hey, to follow along with that part of the investigation. MOO

I don't know if just a rumour at the time but another sleuth told me that with the second Bedgebury forest cold case a yellow car with a dutch number plate was spotted at the time near the crime scene. I would hate to think that Marion stayed there and then met with foul play. If she left her luggage behind at a B&B would she have been traceable under her new identity.

 

[KiwiNZ]

I don't know if just a rumour at the time but another sleuth told me that with the second Bedgebury forest cold case a yellow car with a dutch number plate was spotted at the time near the crime scene. I would hate to think that Marion stayed there and then met with foul play. If she left her luggage behind at a B&B would she have been traceable under her new identity.

I think because whom ever came back cancelled her car insurance on return, its unlikely to be a random person whom murdered her and stole her bags. IMO

 

[KiwiNZ]

You're definitely right about this part to be fair, there wouldn't have been as many visa issues back then. I wrote my post incredibly sleep deprived so I wasn't really thinking clearly about that.

In 1997 travel agents booked your trip, they would not sell you a flight without all correct visa's been in place, they also applied for the Visa's. It wasn't worth their job not to as peoples holiday would be totally ruined by arriving in the country with an incorrect visa. Airlines also checked when you booked in for the flight that your visa was the correct one, you couldn't board if it wasn't as they had to cover the return flight if you were turned around at customs.

The UK was very strick on Visa requirement's, Marion would not have been able to enter without a pre-booked outgoing flight within 6 months of her entry.

Massive missed opportunity not tracking down the travel agent in the early days :-(

 

[sunnynz]

Alfriston Postcard from Sally's Craft and gift centre, High Street, Alfriston reads as far as I can make out as follows:-
"Thinking of you as I explored the quaint little shop on my tour of this historic village of Alfriston. Feeling more refreshed, so much beauty and antiquity everywhere so I am in my element. Next stop Amsterdam.
I hope it wasn't too much getting those things to J H especially the scales. Sally you are a kind daughter.
Have seen my first red squirrel and rabbits everywhere in the fields. The strawberry's taste delicious so do the raspberries. Lots of love to you both xx

Is that the exact words used? With Marion being a teacher who seemed to be quite particular about spelling, the misused apostrophe in 'strawberry's' jumps out at me!

 

[sunnynz]

Finally listened to the Inquest part four episode. The Norfolk Island chat jumped out at me - the picture of Norfolk pines that Marion gave Sally before she left and said 'think of me when you look at this'. The fact that a passport wouldn't have been needed to travel there either - we know Florabella's passport was used to come back into Australia but it never left, but what if the person (be it Marion or an imposter) who came in on that passport left and went to Norfolk Island under a different name? Marion's name, or something else entirely?

Maybe Marion was always planning to end up in Norfolk Island because it was a place she'd previously visited and loved and she knew it would be easy to move there as an Australian and fly below the radar? She and whoever her male companion was wouldn't stick out as foreigners. Perhaps the whole England/Europe/Luxembourg thing was a way to throw people off the scent. Perhaps a genuine holiday in England, then a return to withdraw her money before leaving for NI. With her family and friends thinking her plans was to travel on to other places in Europe - Luxembourg, Amsterdam, the Orient Express.... A whole continent for people to focus their search on for her once they realised she'd gone. When all the time she was not that far away on NI?

Perhaps she thought withdrawing the money in small amounts wouldn't raise the red flags the way massive withdrawals would. And then the final big $80k withdrawal was done on the day of or day before departure to NI because she knew by the time her family found out about it she'd be gone.

How much has Marion's story been shared in Norfolk Island? I feel like we haven't discussed this angle before but if someone can please point me to the relevant posts if we have!