Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, Jun 1997 #4

[KiwiNZ]

Finally listened to the Inquest part four episode. The Norfolk Island chat jumped out at me - the picture of Norfolk pines that Marion gave Sally before she left and said 'think of me when you look at this'. The fact that a passport wouldn't have been needed to travel there either - we know Florabella's passport was used to come back into Australia but it never left, but what if the person (be it Marion or an imposter) who came in on that passport left and went to Norfolk Island under a different name? Marion's name, or something else entirely?

Maybe Marion was always planning to end up in Norfolk Island because it was a place she'd previously visited and loved and she knew it would be easy to move there as an Australian and fly below the radar? She and whoever her male companion was wouldn't stick out as foreigners. Perhaps the whole England/Europe/Luxembourg thing was a way to throw people off the scent. Perhaps a genuine holiday in England, then a return to withdraw her money before leaving for NI. With her family and friends thinking her plans was to travel on to other places in Europe - Luxembourg, Amsterdam, the Orient Express.... A whole continent for people to focus their search on for her once they realised she'd gone. When all the time she was not that far away on NI?

Perhaps she thought withdrawing the money in small amounts wouldn't raise the red flags the way massive withdrawals would. And then the final big $80k withdrawal was done on the day of or day before departure to NI because she knew by the time her family found out about it she'd be gone.

How much has Marion's story been shared in Norfolk Island? I feel like we haven't discussed this angle before but if someone can please point me to the relevant posts if we have!

I think someone on here is from Norfolk island, hopefully they can tell us how likely it could be that she is living there, or was living there, I think the population is about 2000 people ?

 

[Estelle]

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It does sound like that, but this is so much more when you are a teacher. If these accusations were real and stuck, she could no longer work in either the private or public sector. They are very, very serious indeed. It is much more than just emotional blackmail or making one feel marginalised.

Although few of us have assumed that the allegations were true and have been blaming Luke, it often appears to me that they could have been true and Marion did not, in fact, give a few days' notice, she was actually sacked. I say this because a teacher is obliged to give notice (usually the number of weeks you are paid) - usually two weeks at least - as the school needs time to hire another teacher.

Of course, Marion would have told others that she was innocent but her change of behaviour after this incident, shows potential guilt to me. If the allegations made by the Teacher's Aide were false, then Marion could have gone to her union for legal assistance to take the matter to court to prove her innocence. What motivation did the Teacher's Aide have for reporting these allegations if they were untrue? That she would then take over Marion's role as the teacher? If the Teacher's Aide did not have the qualifications, that would not make sense. Has this Teacher's Aide been named or interviewed since? It's hard for me to believe that these serious allegations would be made out of spite. I wonder what evidence the Teacher's Aide had? One would not have expected that Marion would have carried out these acts she was accused of in front of her Teacher's Aide! Did these boys tell their parents and/or the Teacher's Aide? Perhaps the Teacher's Aide was absent at those times. If so, it would have been third party evidence.

If the result was that Marion would, therefore, not be able to work as a Teacher in either the private or public sector in the future in Australia, that would mean the end of her teaching career here - the only work that she had ever done. No wonder Marion wanted to escape to the UK and was wondering about working there in one of her postcards. Although it seems that she told others that she applied for an extension of her teaching certificate, there is no evidence that that would have been granted.

 

[Estelle]

In 1997 travel agents booked your trip, they would not sell you a flight without all correct visa's been in place, they also applied for the Visa's. It wasn't worth their job not to as peoples holiday would be totally ruined by arriving in the country with an incorrect visa. Airlines also checked when you booked in for the flight that your visa was the correct one, you couldn't board if it wasn't as they had to cover the return flight if you were turned around at customs.

The UK was very strict on Visa requirement's, Marion would not have been able to enter without a pre-booked outgoing flight within 6 months of her entry.

Massive missed opportunity not tracking down the travel agent in the early days :-(

As an Australian, I have never had to have a visa for the UK and I have been there many times. Australian passport holders can enter a whopping 183 out of 195 countries across the globe without having to apply for an official visa. I have flown around the world on one-way budget airlines without having to show my airline ticket out of the country or having a visa. I just booked as I went along.

United Kingdom tourist visa is not required for citizens of Australia for a stay up to 180 days.
If you need longer, then you used to go to a non-EU country for a while and then fly back to the UK.
I thought Marion was going to the UK as a tourist so she did not need a work visa.

The airline will not let you board unless you can show a return or onward flight from the UK, or a valid residency permit. However, if you have a one-way ticket, you can buy a cheap onward flight/train to somewhere in Europe (EasyJet/RyanAir/EuroStar) and even cancel it later.
There is no legal requirement to have a return ticket to enter the UK, be you a visa national or not, but you may have to demonstrate that you have the means and intentions to leave the UK at the conclusion of your trip. You could however encounter difficulties if you don't have a return ticket. An open-ended airline ticket is a flight ticket which has no set date for the return leg of the flight, giving you the flexibility to return whenever you'd like with no set date. I thought I read that Marion had an open return ticket.

 

[Estelle]

Is that the exact words used? With Marion being a teacher who seemed to be quite particular about spelling, the misused apostrophe in 'strawberry's' jumps out at me!

It jumps out to me too.

 

[Estelle]

I think because whom ever came back cancelled her car insurance on return, its unlikely to be a random person whom murdered her and stole her bags. IMO

In my experience, you are invoiced every year but if you do not pay, it is automatically cancelled. I forgot to pay it one year so it was cancelled. No one has to phone up and cancel it and I don't think you get refunds if you cancel before the year is up.

 

[Estelle]

Back in 1997 people were most definitely registered ENTERING the UK by air, but not leaving by any means. Passports stamped, visas checked, especially for non-EU nationals. Marion however as an Australian national would not have needed a Visa for a tourist stay of up to 6 months. No interview at the Embassy, passport just stamped at Heathrow with her entry date. If she had planned on marrying an EU citizen in the UK, or working, that's a different matter. And you can't enter on a tourist visa and then apply from within the UK for a working/fiancee visa. She'd have had to go back to Australia to do that.

Marion could however have travelled within the EU during her time in Sussex. Her passport wouldn't have been stamped leaving the UK on a ferry, plane or Eurostar train. Quote from the Guardian newspaper in 2018:

"May, during her time as home secretary, had repeatedly promised to introduce a full exit check programme through the e-borders system by the 2015 general election on the pledge of keeping track of everybody coming in and going out of Britain.

The chief inspector said that by June 2017, despite the promise of 100% coverage, gaps still remained in collecting data on those arriving by sea, ferries, for rail journeys in and out of Britain and travel to and from Ireland within the common travel area."

So 18 years after Marion was in the UK we were still not checking who was leaving. She could have been back and forward between England and the continent like a yo-yo and nobody would have noticed. As long as she didn't overstay that initial 180 days / 6 months, which she didn't.

That is correct.

 

[Estelle]

If Marion did act alone, she did a really good job at covering all her tracks—and he actions just seem like something that would require a lot of methodical planning and specialized expertise. And that level preplanning seems inconsistent with how she was described before her trip as “frantic,” and “exhausted.” Little details like sending letter on Tokyo stationary - when we now know she traveled through South Korea (and may or may not have gone through Japan) is just so such a clever misdirection. Where would she get the skills/knowledge to successfully disappear completely into thin air? Especially if emotionally distraught.

I think it is critical to see who were passengers on the flight when she left AU in June (was there someone she didn’t want Lesley Loveday to see at the airport). Also, what happened when she landed in South Korea. Did she actually go from there to Japan and then to UK? AU keeps copies of passenger cards, so there is a chance that other countries keep similar.

and if she suicided, her body would have been found as one cannot bury oneself.

 

[KiwiNZ]

As an Australian, I have never had to have a visa for the UK and I have been there many times. Australian passport holders can enter a whopping 183 out of 195 countries across the globe without having to apply for an official visa. I have flown around the world on one-way budget airlines without having to show my airline ticket out of the country or having a visa. I just booked as I went along.

United Kingdom tourist visa is not required for citizens of Australia for a stay up to 180 days.
If you need longer, then you used to go to a non-EU country for a while and then fly back to the UK.
I thought Marion was going to the UK as a tourist so she did not need a work visa.

The airline will not let you board unless you can show a return or onward flight from the UK, or a valid residency permit. However, if you have a one-way ticket, you can buy a cheap onward flight/train to somewhere in Europe (EasyJet/RyanAir/EuroStar) and even cancel it later.
There is no legal requirement to have a return ticket to enter the UK, be you a visa national or not, but you may have to demonstrate that you have the means and intentions to leave the UK at the conclusion of your trip. You could however encounter difficulties if you don't have a return ticket. An open-ended airline ticket is a flight ticket which has no set date for the return leg of the flight, giving you the flexibility to return whenever you'd like with no set date. I thought I read that Marion had an open return ticket.

Sorry you are correct, sorry for putting the team wrong.

 

[Estelle]

Finally listened to the Inquest part four episode. The Norfolk Island chat jumped out at me - the picture of Norfolk pines that Marion gave Sally before she left and said 'think of me when you look at this'. The fact that a passport wouldn't have been needed to travel there either - we know Florabella's passport was used to come back into Australia but it never left, but what if the person (be it Marion or an imposter) who came in on that passport left and went to Norfolk Island under a different name? Marion's name, or something else entirely?

Maybe Marion was always planning to end up in Norfolk Island because it was a place she'd previously visited and loved and she knew it would be easy to move there as an Australian and fly below the radar? She and whoever her male companion was wouldn't stick out as foreigners. Perhaps the whole England/Europe/Luxembourg thing was a way to throw people off the scent. Perhaps a genuine holiday in England, then a return to withdraw her money before leaving for NI. With her family and friends thinking her plans was to travel on to other places in Europe - Luxembourg, Amsterdam, the Orient Express.... A whole continent for people to focus their search on for her once they realised she'd gone. When all the time she was not that far away on NI?

Perhaps she thought withdrawing the money in small amounts wouldn't raise the red flags the way massive withdrawals would. And then the final big $80k withdrawal was done on the day of or day before departure to NI because she knew by the time her family found out about it she'd be gone.

How much has Marion's story been shared in Norfolk Island? I feel like we haven't discussed this angle before but if someone can please point me to the relevant posts if we have!

So with your theory, can we now dismiss the possible Remakel connection?

Could Marion have gained a job as a Teacher on Norfolk Island? She was too young to retire.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Random - this is a great link that leads to lots of accommodation - the link is from back in 2002. There was a post, I can't find it now, about Marion was staying somewhere glittery, with quaint rooms? If anyone can remind me, cheers, where that was? Maybe Tonbridge? You can type in the area and it brings up what's there. Might see that glittery accommodation? Just looking through when I've got spare time.
B and B, Guest Houses and Hotels Rye England UK - 56 B and B, Guest Houses and Hotels in Rye - Resort Guide UK Rye holiday and vacation guide

 

[sunnynz]

So with your theory, can we now dismiss the possible Remakel connection?

Could Marion have gained a job as a Teacher on Norfolk Island? She was too young to retire.

I was still thinking there was a man involved - whether his name was really Remakel or this was an alias. I feel like it could still be a romance scam, or Marion lured in by a slightly shady guy but didn’t necessarily meet with foul play, or any of those previously discussed options. But with Norfolk Island as a final destination rather than uk/Europe or Australia.

I’m not clear on the details but just had an “OMG have we looked properly at Norfolk Island” moment!

 

[Estelle]

I was still thinking there was a man involved - whether his name was really Remakel or this was an alias. I feel like it could still be a romance scam, or Marion lured in by a slightly shady guy but didn’t necessarily meet with foul play, or any of those previously discussed options. But with Norfolk Island as a final destination rather than uk/Europe or Australia.

I’m not clear on the details but just had an “OMG have we looked properly at Norfolk Island” moment!

I have been to Norfolk Island and everybody knows each other so a suggestion I would make is to ask a journalist there to do a story on Marion with her photos and both names, etc. as someone is sure to have known her if that is where she was/is.

 

[SaintGertrude]

I was still thinking there was a man involved - whether his name was really Remakel or this was an alias. I feel like it could still be a romance scam, or Marion lured in by a slightly shady guy but didn’t necessarily meet with foul play, or any of those previously discussed options. But with Norfolk Island as a final destination rather than uk/Europe or Australia.

I’m not clear on the details but just had an “OMG have we looked properly at Norfolk Island” moment!

Interestin point about Norfolk Island sunnynz.

 

[SaintGertrude]

When they say on the podcast that there was no record to say that the male teacher companion\boyfriend ever went to Norfolk island with her in 1995 is he now deceased so unable to confirm himself? If he did and records were lost then it questions how much record keeping is still available

 

[SaintGertrude]

When they say on the podcast that there was no record to say that the male teacher companion\boyfriend ever went to Norfolk island with her in 1995 is he now deceased so unable to confirm himself? If he did and records were lost then it questions how much record keeping is still available

 

[SaintGertrude]

I think Trove will have a wealth of information about Norfolk Island and you can search under year as well. I wonder what we can all find. Has anyone already done a search on Trove and found anything interesting? Between 1995 and 1997 I can only find a Mr Clark having repairs to his residence, some advice on travel and lots about Pine trees.

 

[sunnynz]

I’ve private messaged the TLV Facebook page with my theory and I’m guessing they’ve either looked into it before, or if not perhaps they have one of their super sleuths who can!
Trove is a great idea. Might do some digging. Where to start, women named Natalia in the 90s?…

 

[TootsieFootsie]

I doubt very much that Marion would choose a place with a population of 2000 to try and vanish in.

 

[KiwiNZ]

When they say on the podcast that there was no record to say that the male teacher companion\boyfriend ever went to Norfolk island with her in 1995 is he now deceased so unable to confirm himself? If he did and records were lost then it questions how much record keeping is still available

I am a bit confused in the inquest the podcast said no on knew about the trip, however I can see we discussed it back in 2019 so it must have been part of one of the podcasts ? can anyone remember which one ?

 

[TootsieFootsie]

This is one of the reasons I wish there was also a transcript of the podcasts.
It would be much easier to find stuff.

I am a bit confused in the inquest the podcast said no on knew about the trip, however I can see we discussed it back in 2019 so it must have been part of one of the podcasts ? can anyone remember which one ?