Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #11

[gymtonic]

There's new documentary on Netflix about another con artist, called Bad Vegan.

I felt it gave real good insight into coercive control and manipulation versus a victim just wanting to be polite, give people a chance, and put the needs of others ahead of their own.

And how intelligent and capable people can be duped in such a big way. I kept thinking of Marion the whole way through.

Also, no surprise that the guilty party claimed to be ex-military and a secret agent, ha!

(If in Australia)...did you also see the ABC Australian Story episode about dating narcissists the other night?

 

[Deleted member 249471]

I think they have found something too. I wonder if a warrant can be used when it is an inquest?

Yes, they can produce warrants and have access to all the same tools and methods regular police detectives use to obtain information.

That's because it's actually police who work with the coroners court that investigate the coroner's cases and who put together the brief of evidence for an inquest. Then, the Coroners lawyers step in to take all the evidence gathered by police and put the case together for the coroner.

Also, Marion's case has a separate suspected homicide unit, outside of the coroners court, who are working on her case, who I am sure is also working together with the coroners police unit.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

(If in Australia)...did you also see the ABC Australian Story episode about dating narcissists the other night?

I'll check it out I feel there can't be enough stories about con artists and narcissists out there. It's the only way to learn how to spot one, because no one teaches you these things in life, until you come across one. And by then it's too late.

 

[mishy66]

I’m going off car topic for a minute because this has been bugging me for a while.

and this has probably been brought up before so apologies if it has.

We are not exactly sure who Willy Wonka is. MC has been referred to as Mother, also referred to as Aunt… brothers … referred to as brothers/step-brothers/cousins ‘like brothers’ Adopted by MC v Not adopted. DD father? Name changed to W after marriage of MC.

Cannot find Wonka birth, baptism records. We aren’t even sure of birthdate.

I decided to look at possibly MC being aunt as originally suggested by Mrs Wonka. So I went through the family again.

Looking at siblings of MC I came across RC brother.

the first thing that caught my eye is he is the only sibling born in England.

He married an Italian woman MP. They had a child WC.

I am NOT saying this is Wonka. But there’s some interesting points:

English connection
RC went to jail (this can be searched via Belgian newspaper site) - I can’t share due to copyright.
can’t find what happened to him after that.

I am struggling to find any info on the child WC, birth announcements, baptisms etc and the same with the marriage.

I am wondering if anyone else, has any thoughts on this.

links to various trees are:

Family tree of Robert Coppenolle

Family tree of Robert dit "Bobby" COPPENOLLE


Family tree of Robert COPPENOLLE

The info in links above vary slightly but the one thing they have in common are no birthdates for WC, no death date for RC

having searched here
FreeBMD - Search

(you will need to search yourself) using RC and mother’s Maiden name F

RC birth is confirmed in England the district of Gt. Ouseburn is an alternative name for Great Ouseburn and it spans the boundaries of the counties of West Riding of Yorkshire and North Riding of Yorkshire;

I then searched other C surnames in the registry and there are a couple 1 in the hull area

I’m curious if others have gone down this path and have question whether WC son of RC is maybe Wonka?

And if Mrs Wonka was correct with the info during inquest MC was an aunt?

And is this the England link?

Great research @Eyespywithmylittleeye and I can add more to your discovery.


In 1938 -
unmarried
1938 Accident - Spinal fracture
since then, atropia - leg paralysis
Invalid

RC was a Political prisoner for 5 years in Buchenwald.

Arrest Date 19 Feb 1944
Reason for arrest - secret information.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

One thing I’m surprised is that we don’t know for sure where in EU Marion flew into & on what date she arrived. I know tracking within the EU could be tricky but certainly there should be record of her entering at London or someplace else if that is the case. Is that not something a European country would share with AU?

I believe so.

To me it seems as though this inquest's approach is for police to not reveal their hand in any way, but to simply see how RB explains his activities and what he confesses to. Kind of like twisting his arm to make a public statement because we know he'll try to take everything back, change his story and blame everyone else for his own words. So yes, I believe they have much more evidence that will be revealed if it ever goes to a criminal trial.

So yes, I have confidence that police know much more about Marion and RB's travel outside of Australia. We only have access to a few old and unclassified passenger cards, but they will have access to the passenger cards of other countries, flight manifests, immigration records, bank transaction, and much more.

Especially since RB has an international criminal record and likely left victims all over Europe, if not the world. I don't doubt that police from several countries are working together to establish the timeline for him and his victims. As well as looking into their records to find complaints of a similar nature during whatever period he was in each region.

Given that his family spent significant time in the UK, I'm sure the UK is doing their own investigation and assisting Aus. Just my thoughts.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

I agree, someone who did these things frequently, would develop a playbook. These are the patterns I got from podcast episode 9:

His first play was to invite them to be a business partner in coins and give him money.

2nd play appears to have been get them to fall in love with him.

3rd play was introduce the idea of a life overseas, which would require they sell their house.

It apparently worked in Marion's case, so IMO was the con he would try again.

When JGB refused, he began threatening her in various ways. This is common in domestic violence, the charmer turns abusive later in the relationship.

With JO and MB, perhaps he would have, or did, become abusive.

#4 was to steal their gold and silver.

He seems to also have stolen non-valuable things, perhaps to try to mess with their heads: eg the book off JGB's bedside table, JO's title deed she had just filed away.

#5, if they were into an overseas fantasy, offer them to take a trip with him. Even a besotted woman won't necessarily move overseas right away.

I think it's likely some of his actions with JO on the trip were just tests/grooming: how much could he get away with and she would still trust him? How badly could he treat her and she wouldn't complain? Get her used to not knowing what was going on, and being obediant.

A trip was also an opportunity to steal identity documents. Whether he had a concrete plan what he'd do with them, I don't know. But it fits the overall pattern of taking everything from the woman and leaving her with nothing of her own.

It also enabled him to manipulate them into changing things about themselves that would make it hard to track them: change their name, hair colour...

IMO, it was his long term strategy to get JO to sell her house: but she came to her senses.

However, as with JGB, he hadn't done anything sufficiently criminal to make it worthwhile for police to track him down. I think he kept that in mind at all times, and many of his actions were about 'pushing the envelope' just a little further every time. More lies, more manipulation, more control.

JMO

Correction: because of GGB, police DID track him down. The showed up at his house on Christmas Eve and served him an apprehended violence order. The problem is, he didn't seem to have committed any other crimes on that name (FDdH) so there were no red flags and links to his other crimes when police searched for him on their system. Also, he did steal from GGB - $30k she didn't agree to, jewellery and her naked photos. It seems to me that GBB didn't pursue charges for these, she just didn't want him to approach her anymore, hence AVO. IMO

 

[Deleted member 249471]

I missed this the first time but, having since re-visited some info, did anyone else pick up on this?:

Towards the end of DdH's inquest testimony, AC asks her how they funded the purchase of the Mitsubishi Magna in 1997, DdH says "He never had any big money wins"

It's long been questioned where all the $$ went and a few weeks ago I speculated on a gambling problem, so this made me sit bolt upright!

Yes, I'm starting to suspect gambling too!

 

[gymtonic]

Yes, I'm starting to suspect gambling too!

Also Pacific Fair - scene of another mysterious attack on RB according to AC at inquest - is right next door to the Gold Coast Casino (that was called Jupiters Casino at the time)
Just saying'!

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

I've been looking into this but haven't found much except for a website I found about Ian Robbs Own Story: - "Several of the prisoners became regular vistors to our group and among these were .... RC a Belgian who claimed to have been born in Richmond, Yorks. RC's claim was true, as he visited me after the war and we obtained a copy of his birth certificate from Somerset House. His fiancee had also been arrested and interned in Ravensbruck concentration camp, but she died 11 days before the camp was liberated". Also I found his prisoner number (I think) 54085.

I wonder if RC and his fiancee had a baby out of wedlock? Could that be how the orphanage and Aunt C comes to adopt? Thoughts?

My thoughts are exactly that. Born out of wedlock. Aunt C, raises child. The fiancé is interesting.. is that MP.. ? Presuming not and he has met MP after this?

 

[Meligator]

I believe so.

To me it seems as though this inquest's approach is for police to not reveal their hand in any way, but to simply see how RB explains his activities and what he confesses to. Kind of like twisting his arm to make a public statement because we know he'll try to take everything back, change his story and blame everyone else for his own words. So yes, I believe they have much more evidence that will be revealed if it ever goes to a criminal trial.

So yes, I have confidence that police know much more about Marion and RB's travel outside of Australia. We only have access to a few old and unclassified passenger cards, but they will have access to the passenger cards of other countries, flight manifests, immigration records, bank transaction, and much more.

Especially since RB has an international criminal record and likely left victims all over Europe, if not the world. I don't doubt that police from several countries are working together to establish the timeline for him and his victims. As well as looking into their records to find complaints of a similar nature during whatever period he was in each region.

Given that his family spent significant time in the UK, I'm sure the UK is doing their own investigation and assisting Aus. Just my thoughts.

Oh I hadn't thought of that, but yes there very well could be an international type (coordinated) investigation. Lets hope. I don't know if anyone on here is knowledgeable about AU laws, but wondering if there are rules about what things must be included/shared with RB in brief of evidence (or what can be withheld). This case is about Marion, so I suppose the brief of evidence maybe doesn't need to include additional/unrelated information about RB--but I don't know if that's true. Seems like he was entitled to see the statements made by other victims, ahead of his testimony. I also wonder how it is decided what information remains private and to whom. Sally has info in the brief that she in unable to share. Does RB have access to the whole brief as well? Even today, its not really clear what information was being redacted from Sally for so many years. Seems like most of what has come out is all recently acquired knowledge.

 

[Meligator]

Correction: because of GGB, police DID track him down. The showed up at his house on Christmas Eve and served him an apprehended violence order. The problem is, he didn't seem to have committed any other crimes on that name (FDdH) so there were no red flags and links to his other crimes when police searched for him on their system. Also, he did steal from GGB - $30k she didn't agree to, jewellery and her naked photos. It seems to me that GBB didn't pursue charges for these, she just didn't want him to approach her anymore, hence AVO. IMO

But they did find him even though GGB didn't really know how to spell/pronounce his name and didn't know where he lived. So he must have been on police radar somehow. Still amazes me that they figured out who he was from the information she provided.

 

[Satchie]

Anything is possible. I seem to remember JO saying RB told her to go to a particular travel agent to book a flight to get back to Australia. Does anyone recall this? I thought that was a little suspicious. Maybe he was paying someone off to delay her flight back?

I recently listened to the podcast version of her testimony, that is not mentioned. She had no money, RB told her he was going to buy her tickets and gave dates sometime late December or early January, is all she says. He was supposedly in hospital at the time.

 

[Satchie]

Correction: because of GGB, police DID track him down. The showed up at his house on Christmas Eve and served him an apprehended violence order. The problem is, he didn't seem to have committed any other crimes on that name (FDdH) so there were no red flags and links to his other crimes when police searched for him on their system. Also, he did steal from GGB - $30k she didn't agree to, jewellery and her naked photos. It seems to me that GBB didn't pursue charges for these, she just didn't want him to approach her anymore, hence AVO. IMO

Thanks for the correction.

She says in the podcast that she gave him her bank card and pin number, so I think prosecuting the case would be problematic.

I did mean to flag that part though, since it shows that in 1998 it was possible for him to somehow withdraw $30k from a woman's bank account. I wonder whether or not it got flagged by the bank?

 

[Jay_Tec]

The problem I have is why did MB say she was going to be out of contact for some time on her last phone call to Sally? Did her killer force Marion to make that call and say that? Killers often do that.

I assume that Marion's killer sent the last postcard later (which Marion had written but not yet posted before her death) and which arrived many days after Marion had supposedly arrived here to indicate proof of life in England.

I think RB sent "Maz" and the "Dutch dentist" to show Marion around in her last days. IMO "Maz" was DdH and the "Dutch dentist" the killer for hire. They could have all been staying together in an apartment where they could steal Marion's passport then change the photo to DdH and do anything else RB needed. "Maz" left using Marion's passport and the Dutch dentist had the job of ending Marion's life, burying the body somewhere (where it has never been found or has been but it has not been identified yet) and getting rid of her other suitcase, etc. or did "Maz" take it? I suspect RB had the other suitcase with her ID documents in it which had been stored at Heathrow. Maybe RB had a real or faked PoA too?

I think Wonka being high on coercion, manipulation, and romance scamming, probably said something like 'hey if we're to be married, I need to spend quality alone time with you to see how well we get along, let's have a week in 'x' location with no one else involved, just me and you, no phone calls, no nothing, like being on a retreat' - might have even suggested an actual spiritual retreat or rent a cottage in a remote fishing village or god knows what - 'tell them not to worry if they don't hear much from you for the next month'.

 

[Newby171]

I recently listened to the podcast version of her testimony, that is not mentioned. She had no money, RB told her he was going to buy her tickets and gave dates sometime late December or early January, is all she says. He was supposedly in hospital at the time.

I think at the inquest JO stated that she was to contact a certain travel agent with a couple of travel dates given. The podcast is just a summary and did not go into that detail.

 

[Jay_Tec]

I recently listened to the podcast version of her testimony, that is not mentioned. She had no money, RB told her he was going to buy her tickets and gave dates sometime late December or early January, is all she says. He was supposedly in hospital at the time.

Do you know what time line that would be ? What month was she stranded ? How much time was he buying ? Because whatever that time frame is, is exactly how much he needs. Four weeks? Two months?

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

I missed this the first time but, having since re-visited some info, did anyone else pick up on this?:

Towards the end of DdH's inquest testimony, AC asks her how they funded the purchase of the Mitsubishi Magna in 1997, DdH says "He never had any big money wins"

It's long been questioned where all the $$ went and a few weeks ago I speculated on a gambling problem, so this made me sit bolt upright!

FWIW. I found some references in the IK years to MR in a Sydney newspaper in the horseracing section. He appeared to be an owner. If anyone is interested I can dig up.

 

[Untangle]

He has many aliases that we are struggling to unravel even now! Parts of this case keep reminding me of the Isdal Woman (involving many aliases and left luggage only linked through pure fluke of a partial fingerprint) and Sommerton Man cases.

Funny you should mention the Isdal Woman. I was planning to write a post about some possible connections between these two cases, now that RB has entered the picture. Because the combination of Belgium, cheque fraud and aristocratic-sounding fake names made me think of perhaps the most mysterious case of them all.

For those who don't know, the Isdal Woman is the name given to an unidentified lady found dead and badly burnt on a forested hillside in Isdalen (Ice Valley) near the city of Bergen, Norway in 1970.

The police discovered she had done extensive travelling around Europe that year, using at least ten different identities. To this day, no one knows who she really was and what she was doing.

On most of her hotel registration cards she claimed to be from Brussels, Belgium.
We know RB may have spent quite some time in Brussels prior to 1970, as he was sentenced for various offences there every year from 1965-1969. Including theft, false documents and cheque fraud.

Someone earlier in the thread suggested that RB could have been part of a criminal gang early in his "career" in the 60s-70s.
The local police chief in Bergen in 1970 later said he was convinced that the Isdal Woman had been part of a cheque fraud gang, even if there was no definite proof.

Is it possible they knew each other and operated in the same circles in Belgium?

They both seem to use some fanciful names.
RB has been known by names such as Roger Lauzoney, Frederick de Hedervary and Richard Lloyd Westbury. Some of the Isdal Woman's false identities included Genevieve Lancier, Vera Lucile Schlosseneck and Alexia Zarna-Merchez.

She was observed meeting up with a man she probably knew on her travels in Norway, possibly an accomplice.

We don't know much about RB's activities in 1970, but he took a plane from Australia back to Belgium on 15 February 1970. The Isdal Woman begins her travels on 10 March 1970.

She is last seen, and probably dies, on 23 November 1970.
Two days later, on 25 November 1970, RB seems to be in Brussels to apply for a Visa back to Australia.

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

I'll check it out I feel there can't be enough stories about con artists and narcissists out there. It's the only way to learn how to spot one, because no one teaches you these things in life, until you come across one. And by then it's too late.

There is also Netflix "World's Worst Roommate" with 1 or 2 hair-raising scammer stories which involve real estate and rental fraud.

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

Funny you should mention the Isdal Woman. I was planning to write a post about some possible connections between these two cases, now that RB has entered the picture. Because the combination of Belgium, cheque fraud and aristocratic-sounding fake names made me think of perhaps the most mysterious case of them all.

For those who don't know, the Isdal Woman is the name given to an unidentified lady found dead and badly burnt on a forested hillside in Isdalen (Ice Valley) near the city of Bergen, Norway in 1970.

The police discovered she had done extensive travelling around Europe that year, using at least ten different identities. To this day, no one knows who she really was and what she was doing.

On most of her hotel registration cards she claimed to be from Brussels, Belgium.
We know RB may have spent quite some time in Brussels prior to 1970, as he was sentenced for various offences there every year from 1965-1969. Including theft, false documents and cheque fraud.

Someone earlier in the thread suggested that RB could have been part of a criminal gang early in his "career" in the 60s-70s.
The local police chief in Bergen in 1970 later said he was convinced that the Isdal Woman had been part of a cheque fraud gang, even if there was no definite proof.

Is it possible they knew each other and operated in the same circles in Belgium?

They both seem to use some fanciful names.
RB has been known by names such as Roger Lauzoney, Frederick de Hedervary and Richard Lloyd Westbury. Some of the Isdal Woman's false identities included Genevieve Lancier, Vera Lucile Schlosseneck and Alexia Zarna-Merchez.

She was observed meeting up with a man she probably knew on her travels in Norway, possibly an accomplice.

We don't know much about RB's activities in 1970, but he took a plane from Australia back to Belgium on 15 February 1970. The Isdal Woman begins her travels on 10 March 1970.

She is last seen, and probably dies, on 23 November 1970.
Two days later, on 25 November 1970, RB seems to be in Brussels to apply for a Visa back to Australia.

@gymtonic @Untangle LOVED the BBC Isdal Woman podcast! And love you two linking her to Wonka.