Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #11

[BonnieB]

He has many aliases that we are struggling to unravel even now! Parts of this case keep reminding me of the Isdal Woman (involving many aliases and left luggage only linked through pure fluke of a partial fingerprint) and Sommerton Man cases.

Yes agree. We know he slipped back into Australia 1974-76 on an unknown passport and probably again around Jan 1985 and there could be others. As other sleuths have said, the next three days of the inquest will be unmissable.

 

[BabeBlues]

Has any or much info been found about RB's first 2 wives JL or NR, or his son G? I know at one stage there was discussion around the correct spelling of JL, was this ever clarified?

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

Just ideas:

He could have completely emptied the property of all furniture, antiques, valuables, electronic equipment etc ?

He could have falsely let the property to prospective tenants, taking a hefty deposit, a couple of months down payment and a months rent in advance (old scam trick people used to run on vacant homes)?

Is there some type of quick cash turn around sales where a bargain company buys the home immediately ? Property auction ?

He could have ordered high value items or bought things with promises to pay using the address ?

I need to refresh on how exactly it was the JO baulked and came home but perhaps she wasn't ever meant to. Maybe she had far more of a lucky escape than we've realised as a third party was in fact intended to do her in?

A loan against the house? Using the house as collateral to buy another property

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

Just ideas:

He could have completely emptied the property of all furniture, antiques, valuables, electronic equipment etc ?

He could have falsely let the property to prospective tenants, taking a hefty deposit, a couple of months down payment and a months rent in advance (old scam trick people used to run on vacant homes)?

Is there some type of quick cash turn around sales where a bargain company buys the home immediately ? Property auction ?

He could have ordered high value items or bought things with promises to pay using the address ?

I need to refresh on how exactly it was the JO baulked and came home but perhaps she wasn't ever meant to. Maybe she had far more of a lucky escape than we've realised as a third party was in fact intended to do her in?

A loan against the house? Using the house as collateral to buy another property

RB abandoned JO with no cash, sent her to a relatives home in UK to borrow her fare home. Now, I expect he thought that would give him a few days leeway, but not more than a week. There is no evidence that JO owned valuable antique furniture or artworks. Property conveyance in Australia is not something achieved in a few days unless he had another "naive & cashed up" victim lined up. Even then, I can't see someone handing over thousands of dollars without legal checks on the ownership of the property. It just doesn't make sense to me.

unless… he put the wheels in motion once power of attorney was signed.. organised prior to even going OS with Jo.. plan failed due to Jo’s cousin paying for a flight quickly.

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

Further to my previous post if putting wheels in motion prior to going OS with Jo

Perhaps this was the ‘revised’ version, a mistake he made with Marion.. so he had power of attorney before leaving.. had everything he needed so to avoid having to ‘need’ Jo in Australia to complete his plan.

maybe he realised power of attorney outweighs any name changes on passports, accessing money from a bank etc.

There are def similarities- two obvious differences..

Jo was limited to $1000
Marion had money and travellers cheques

He had power of attorney and title and whatever other documents before they left Australia with Jo.

Marion.. didn’t have property but she had cash.. and getting the cash out.. was risky - not getting flagged by the bank (whether Marion or he took it out) - it was achieved but at what cost to Marion and I don’t mean financial.

So he went for an asset with Jo rather than deal with a bank. Avoiding the bank.. and avoiding having to remove Jo.. she was already removed.

Maybe??

 

[Estelle]

The problem I have is why did MB say she was going to be out of contact for some time on her last phone call to Sally? Did her killer force Marion to make that call and say that? Killers often do that.

I assume that Marion's killer sent the last postcard later (which Marion had written but not yet posted before her death) and which arrived many days after Marion had supposedly arrived here to indicate proof of life in England.

I think RB sent "Maz" and the "Dutch dentist" to show Marion around in her last days. IMO "Maz" was DdH and the "Dutch dentist" the killer for hire. They could have all been staying together in an apartment where they could steal Marion's passport then change the photo to DdH and do anything else RB needed. "Maz" left using Marion's passport and the Dutch dentist had the job of ending Marion's life, burying the body somewhere (where it has never been found or has been but it has not been identified yet) and getting rid of her other suitcase, etc. or did "Maz" take it? I suspect RB had the other suitcase with her ID documents in it which had been stored at Heathrow. Maybe RB had a real or faked PoA too?

 

[StarrChance]

Yes agree. We know he slipped back into Australia 1974-76 on an unknown passport and probably again around Jan 1985 and there could be others. As other sleuths have said, the next three days of the inquest will be unmissable.

WW first wife IK or I Reid (according to her death certificate) came back to Australia in 1975 with the second husband MJR. She died two years later. The inquest noted her first child was WW father. I cant find anything concrete about this MJR who married her in Belguim 5 years earlier (according to IK death certificate). Could this be WW coming back in 1975 as Reid? Really like to rule this in or out. Has anyone any information about MJR whereabouts?

 

[Estelle]

My theory weeks ago was that RB was MJR who returned to Australia in 1974/5. Others found a NZ M J Reid but IMO that would not have been him.

 

[gymtonic]

Further to my previous post if putting wheels in motion prior to going OS with Jo

Perhaps this was the ‘revised’ version, a mistake he made with Marion.. so he had power of attorney before leaving.. had everything he needed so to avoid having to ‘need’ Jo in Australia to complete his plan.

maybe he realised power of attorney outweighs any name changes on passports, accessing money from a bank etc.

There are def similarities- two obvious differences..

Jo was limited to $1000
Marion had money and travellers cheques

He had power of attorney and title and whatever other documents before they left Australia with Jo.

Marion.. didn’t have property but she had cash.. and getting the cash out.. was risky - not getting flagged by the bank (whether Marion or he took it out) - it was achieved but at what cost to Marion and I don’t mean financial.

So he went for an asset with Jo rather than deal with a bank. Avoiding the bank.. and avoiding having to remove Jo.. she was already removed.

Maybe??

MOO: I agree that he adapts and pivots to fit the circumstances and what works and doesn't work. But also, given that we have the benefit of hindsight, we are trying to make sense of things based on what we know happened. So should we also consider things that might have been tried by RB but didn't work? For example re your statement: "...a mistake he made with MB...maybe realised PoA outweighs name changes...etc". Consider....maybe he did try to get PoA with MB and she refused (like he tried to get GGB to sell her house and she refused)...because MB is not here to tell the entire story we don't know. We are missing parts and filling gaps. We have the GGB and JO story and that helps us draw inferences. Maybe his MO is like a flow chart? e.g. try to get PoA...if Yes, then do X and If no then do Y? ... and so on (Sorry I am a bit of computer nerd so sometimes look at this as how computer logic and language works LOL)

 

[gymtonic]

WW first wife IK or I Reid (according to her death certificate) came back to Australia in 1975 with the second husband MJR. She died two years later. The inquest noted her first child was WW father. I cant find anything concrete about this MJR who married her in Belguim 5 years earlier (according to IK death certificate). Could this be WW coming back in 1975 as Reid? Really like to rule this in or out. Has anyone any information about MJR whereabouts?

I had a wild (ish) theory a while ago that the whole tangled and mysterious web of events that make up the "WW/IK marriage of convenience to enter Oz and gain residency...IK runs off with another man...."maybe baby" that travels out of OZ without IK....IK marries MJR comes back to Oz etc etc" narrative, actually indicated "symptoms" of some passport/ residency/ citizenship for sale/ adoption racket or human trafficking/ drug smuggling ring, where none of the identities involved were who they say they were!! I haven't yet gone into the details to unravel the complexities yet and so that where my theory sits! It's whacky, but then again...so is everything else!

 

[gymtonic]

The problem I have is why did MB say she was going to be out of contact for some time on her last phone call to Sally? Did her killer force Marion to make that call and say that? Killers often do that.

I assume that Marion's killer sent the last postcard later (which Marion had written but not yet posted before her death) and which arrived many days after Marion had supposedly arrived here to indicate proof of life in England.

I think RB sent "Maz" and the "Dutch dentist" to show Marion around in her last days. IMO "Maz" was DdH and the "Dutch dentist" the killer for hire. They could have all been staying together in an apartment where they could steal Marion's passport then change the photo to DdH and do anything else RB needed. "Maz" left using Marion's passport and the Dutch dentist had the job of ending Marion's life, burying the body somewhere (where it has never been found or has been but it has not been identified yet) and getting rid of her other suitcase, etc. or did "Maz" take it? I suspect RB had the other suitcase with her ID documents in it which had been stored at Heathrow. Maybe RB had a real or faked PoA too?

Hmmm I do like problematical questions and loose threads to ponder!

For the first bit: I can imagine a scenario a bit like this...RB finds out MB has been sending postcards and making calls and in an effort to separate her from family and friends makes a big fuss RB.."I thought you were coming here to get away for a while and not think about them, why are you still writing to them and making calls? We are going to Amsterdam and the Orient Express for honeymoon...you have to stop doing this!" MB: "You're right, Darling! No more postcards or calls!"

Re the Dutch dentist and Maz...maybe that is just as it seems...people that Marion met? IMO not everything needs to fit the "devious" basket?

BTW maybe the Dutch dentist was female??

I do think RB picking up the suitcases at Heathrow, having been the one to take charge of checking them in, is a strong possibility.

 

[Satchie]

MOO: I agree that he adapts and pivots to fit the circumstances and what works and doesn't work. But also, given that we have the benefit of hindsight, we are trying to make sense of things based on what we know happened. So should we also consider things that might have been tried by RB but didn't work? For example re your statement: "...a mistake he made with MB...maybe realised PoA outweighs name changes...etc". Consider....maybe he did try to get PoA with MB and she refused (like he tried to get GGB to sell her house and she refused)...because MB is not here to tell the entire story we don't know. We are missing parts and filling gaps. We have the GGB and JO story and that helps us draw inferences. Maybe his MO is like a flow chart? e.g. try to get PoA...if Yes, then do X and If no then do Y? ... and so on (Sorry I am a bit of computer nerd so sometimes look at this as how computer logic and language works LOL)

I agree, someone who did these things frequently, would develop a playbook. These are the patterns I got from podcast episode 9:

His first play was to invite them to be a business partner in coins and give him money.

2nd play appears to have been get them to fall in love with him.

3rd play was introduce the idea of a life overseas, which would require they sell their house.

It apparently worked in Marion's case, so IMO was the con he would try again.

When JGB refused, he began threatening her in various ways. This is common in domestic violence, the charmer turns abusive later in the relationship.

With JO and MB, perhaps he would have, or did, become abusive.

#4 was to steal their gold and silver.

He seems to also have stolen non-valuable things, perhaps to try to mess with their heads: eg the book off JGB's bedside table, JO's title deed she had just filed away.

#5, if they were into an overseas fantasy, offer them to take a trip with him. Even a besotted woman won't necessarily move overseas right away.

I think it's likely some of his actions with JO on the trip were just tests/grooming: how much could he get away with and she would still trust him? How badly could he treat her and she wouldn't complain? Get her used to not knowing what was going on, and being obediant.

A trip was also an opportunity to steal identity documents. Whether he had a concrete plan what he'd do with them, I don't know. But it fits the overall pattern of taking everything from the woman and leaving her with nothing of her own.

It also enabled him to manipulate them into changing things about themselves that would make it hard to track them: change their name, hair colour...

IMO, it was his long term strategy to get JO to sell her house: but she came to her senses.

However, as with JGB, he hadn't done anything sufficiently criminal to make it worthwhile for police to track him down. I think he kept that in mind at all times, and many of his actions were about 'pushing the envelope' just a little further every time. More lies, more manipulation, more control.

JMO

 

[fastpiece]

I’m going off car topic for a minute because this has been bugging me for a while.

and this has probably been brought up before so apologies if it has.

We are not exactly sure who Willy Wonka is. MC has been referred to as Mother, also referred to as Aunt… brothers … referred to as brothers/step-brothers/cousins ‘like brothers’ Adopted by MC v Not adopted. DD father? Name changed to W after marriage of MC.

Cannot find Wonka birth, baptism records. We aren’t even sure of birthdate.

I decided to look at possibly MC being aunt as originally suggested by Mrs Wonka. So I went through the family again.

Looking at siblings of MC I came across RC brother.

the first thing that caught my eye is he is the only sibling born in England.

He married an Italian woman MP. They had a child WC.

I am NOT saying this is Wonka. But there’s some interesting points:

English connection
RC went to jail (this can be searched via Belgian newspaper site) - I can’t share due to copyright.
can’t find what happened to him after that.

I am struggling to find any info on the child WC, birth announcements, baptisms etc and the same with the marriage.

I am wondering if anyone else, has any thoughts on this.

links to various trees are:

Family tree of Robert Coppenolle

Family tree of Robert dit "Bobby" COPPENOLLE


Family tree of Robert COPPENOLLE

The info in links above vary slightly but the one thing they have in common are no birthdates for WC, no death date for RC

having searched here
FreeBMD - Search

(you will need to search yourself) using RC and mother’s Maiden name F

RC birth is confirmed in England the district of Gt. Ouseburn is an alternative name for Great Ouseburn and it spans the boundaries of the counties of West Riding of Yorkshire and North Riding of Yorkshire;

I then searched other C surnames in the registry and there are a couple 1 in the hull area

I’m curious if others have gone down this path and have question whether WC son of RC is maybe Wonka?

And if Mrs Wonka was correct with the info during inquest MC was an aunt?

And is this the England link?

I've been looking into this but haven't found much except for a website I found about Ian Robbs Own Story: - "Several of the prisoners became regular vistors to our group and among these were .... RC a Belgian who claimed to have been born in Richmond, Yorks. RC's claim was true, as he visited me after the war and we obtained a copy of his birth certificate from Somerset House. His fiancee had also been arrested and interned in Ravensbruck concentration camp, but she died 11 days before the camp was liberated". Also I found his prisoner number (I think) 54085.

I wonder if RC and his fiancee had a baby out of wedlock? Could that be how the orphanage and Aunt C comes to adopt? Thoughts?

 

[gymtonic]

I missed this the first time but, having since re-visited some info, did anyone else pick up on this?:

Towards the end of DdH's inquest testimony, AC asks her how they funded the purchase of the Mitsubishi Magna in 1997, DdH says "He never had any big money wins"

It's long been questioned where all the $$ went and a few weeks ago I speculated on a gambling problem, so this made me sit bolt upright!

 

[BonnieB]

I missed this the first time but, having since re-visited some info, did anyone else pick up on this?:

Towards the end of DdH's inquest testimony, AC asks her how they funded the purchase of the Mitsubishi Magna in 1997, DdH says "He never had any big money wins"

It's long been questioned where all the $$ went and a few weeks ago I speculated on a gambling problem, so this made me sit bolt upright!

There's a perfect description of RB's activities by Austrac - Fraud to finance a gambling addiction

 

[centred]

My theory weeks ago was that RB was MJR who returned to Australia in 1974/5. Others found a NZ M J Reid but IMO that would not have been him.

My theory is, if you cannot find him , then it is him ...

 

[LEO123]

hmmm it's an interesting one. I need to refresh on this but is there any possibility that JO was not intended to even make it to the relatives ?

Anything is possible. I seem to remember JO saying RB told her to go to a particular travel agent to book a flight to get back to Australia. Does anyone recall this? I thought that was a little suspicious. Maybe he was paying someone off to delay her flight back?

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Maybe "something" in a suitcase she was supposed to pick up was meant to delay her "a lot longer" at a certain airport.

Anything is possible. I seem to remember JO saying RB told her to go to a particular travel agent to book a flight to get back to Australia. Does anyone recall this? I thought that was a little suspicious. Maybe he was paying someone off to delay her flight back?

 

[Jay_Tec]

I missed this the first time but, having since re-visited some info, did anyone else pick up on this?:

Towards the end of DdH's inquest testimony, AC asks her how they funded the purchase of the Mitsubishi Magna in 1997, DdH says "He never had any big money wins"

It's long been questioned where all the $$ went and a few weeks ago I speculated on a gambling problem, so this made me sit bolt upright!

Yep! That stood out to me too. I assumed that DdH was speaking of his coin speculations as potential 'wins' but you're so right.

Gambling addiction would explain everything. People acting out of desperation to fund an addiction is often a motive when one can't fathom out the 'why'.

Also it explains his entire calculating and risk taking money obsessed mindset.

I once attended a Gamblers Anonymous meeting and was mindblown to hear peoples' stories - the lengths and extent they had gone to and the loss, harm, risk incurred. Is it possible some of Wonka's travels / movements were relating to horse race meets, matches, races, or such ?

Also if involved in the world of racing / betting or even casinos and gambling, there's such a seedy underbelly of fellow clientele and also staff.

If someone in the bank was a fellow gambler that he'd met along the way, that would explain being assisted with the money withdrawal.

I firmly believe the bank have covered up a discrepancy. On the day when the bank staff lady looked at the account and informed Sally of the daily withdrawals, that would have flared an investigation. Seems to me the bank went into defensive 'cover up' mode. There are many many obvious reasons why banks cannot afford to be seen as unreliable operations and never wish to share when someone has defrauded or scammed them, most especially when it's been an inside job.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

There's new documentary on Netflix about another con artist, called Bad Vegan.

I felt it gave real good insight into coercive control and manipulation versus a victim just wanting to be polite, give people a chance, and put the needs of others ahead of their own.

And how intelligent and capable people can be duped in such a big way. I kept thinking of Marion the whole way through.

Also, no surprise that the guilty party claimed to be ex-military and a secret agent, ha!