Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #11

[Meligator]

Wondering now about what info was provided by BC (coin/stamp dealer in Ballina). RB makes some mention in the inquest to the effect of "I know you spoke with him," referring to BC. Also, Casseldon, at one point, asks RB if he gave out BC's phone number as a way for people to reach him [RB], to avoid having people/women call him on his home phone. Maybe BC recalls a Marion calling & asking for RB around 1997?

Separate, found this little 2012 article about altered coins in Lennox Head (no evidence relating it to RB).
Police warning over chemically altered 10-cent coins | Ballina Information Blog

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

As always, great dialogue and theories. I now can see RETURN and NO RETURN going either way, particularly based on the member who posted how many days it took to withdraw the money and how much time Marion may have been on her own in AUS. That's a dangerous situation for a con man, once the mark is on home territory and too much out of sight. How could Wonka be sure Marion wouldn't break down and contact family or friends? (Or commit drive-bys, if she had access to the car?) Even just out of boredom.

Comparing Marion's case to JO is also an interesting way to look at things. But I would venture that JO's case could be correction of what went wrong with Marion, or a duplication of what went right! In that case, Wonka planned to abandon JO in England. Might he have done that with Marion? Or left her with "friends" on board the boat until the operation was finished. And the friends did the dirty work.

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

B U T . . . if Marion did not return to AUS, why did Wonka need to make it look like she did? Wouldn't it have been safer to abandon her or have her be seen as vanished in UK than AUS?

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

Word of caution. It's hard to imagine Wonka as anything other than his old, lying dirtbag self. Clearly he was not that to these women. He must have had some charm, some physical attraction to have been even middlin' good at what he did -- with men and women. It's also hard to imagine Marion as gullible, vulnerable, and trapped in Wonka's lies. We want her to be so much better than that. Even Sally only knew her mum from a 20 year old's perspective. ( I just learned a few months ago that my 92 year old [narcissistic] mother had an affair throughout her 70s while married to my stepfather. I had NO idea.) We don't really know our parents unless we live long enough. And are willing to know the unpleasant parts of them.

 

[Meligator]

One thing I’m surprised is that we don’t know for sure where in EU Marion flew into & on what date she arrived. I know tracking within the EU could be tricky but certainly there should be record of her entering at London or someplace else if that is the case. Is that not something a European country would share with AU?

 

[BonnieB]

So, most of us suspect the possibility that RB took Marion overseas with the intention of stealing her money from the UK, but the plan failed when Marion didn't transfer all of it, so he was forced to drag her back to Aus, right?

But what do you all think about this...

What if it was the opposite? What if RB took Marion overseas to distract, isolate and eventually dispose of her, while... say... a female accomplice remained in Aus to steal her money and was supposed to place it in their joint security envelope? But the accomplice couldn't because Marion hadn't changed her bank accounts to her new FNMR name, so RB had to return with Marion?

Is this viable?

Actually, as an initial plan, this makes more sense. Falsify enough ID in the FNMR name for the accomplice to transfer the money to another dodgy account in Europe while Marion was in the UK. He then withdraws from that account in Europe, closes the account and flies back to Australia, disappears back to his house in the sticks, grows a beard and lies low for a while. He can retrieve the cash from wherever it is safely hidden in a bank box at a later date. Marion is left high and dry and who would she report to police? FNR! who didn't really exist. And the real FNR would have had police knocking on his door soon enough.
Edit - added thought. I don't think it's a coincidence that Marion believed and wrote Luxembourg on her paperwork. I think it was RB's plan all along to implicate the real FNR.

 

[Aldona]

Hi all, I've been continuing my research at The Keep (East Sussex Records Office), but don't have much to report. The DH family were not on the electoral register during their time at Mottynsden Lodge in Burwash.

As background Mottynsden was purchased by Commander V in 1932, and he and his wife lived there until 1967, when they sold the manor house and moved into the lodge. Mrs V, by then a widow, died on 3/7/82. The property has stayed under the ownership of the son, DV, since then. DV owned and lived in another nearby property, so presumably rented the lodge out, but is now living there (he is listed as living there in the 2019 edition of Debrett's Peerage, available online).

As we know the DH family were listed as living at the Lodge on 1/12/84 on their chilldrens' baptism record, and then the next evidence I can find of anyone else living in it is the 1987 electoral roll, when there is different family of 4 listed as living at the Lodge. The qualifying date for this electoral roll was 10 October 1986, so we know that the DHs had definitely moved out by then.

I looked through local newspapers but they didn't reveal much. I did spot this article about krugerrand gold coin smuggling (see attached 1984 Sussex Express article), which isn't connected to Mr Wonka, but it does sound like the kind of activity he could be involved in, and would explain him parking his family in the UK and having an excuse for coming backwards and forwards from Europe regularly. I have done a UK news search and there seems to have been quite a bit of this gold coin smuggling going on in the 1980s before the VAT rules were changed, and Luxembourg was one of the countries with no VAT on hold at the time.

 

[BonnieB]

Has anyone worked out how the JO scam was meant to work? He must have expected JO to be away from her home for perhaps a few days longer than she was but surely he couldn't have arranged the sale of her property in just a few days or even a week. Upon her return she immediately put a caveat on the property. So, if it wasn't the property, what did he hope to gain? A few pieces of jewellery? A few documents?

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

Actually, as an initial plan, this makes more sense. Falsify enough ID in the FNMR name for the accomplice to transfer the money to another dodgy account in Europe while Marion was in the UK. He then withdraws from that account in Europe, closes the account and flies back to Australia, disappears back to his house in the sticks, grows a beard and lies low for a while. He can retrieve the cash from wherever it is safely hidden in a bank box at a later date. Marion is left high and dry and who would she report to police? FNR! who didn't really exist. And the real FNR would have had police knocking on his door soon enough.
Edit - added thought. I don't think it's a coincidence that Marion believed and wrote Luxembourg on her paperwork. I think it was RB's plan all along to implicate the real FNR.

Very possible. But why? Surely not because he held a torch for MC…? Mrs Wonka said he knew the both… FR & MC… so why FR?
You are on the money if MB was left oS going to police snd reporting a man who didn’t exist.. especially when he didn’t travel on FNR passport.. he is a ghost.

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

Word of caution. It's hard to imagine Wonka as anything other than his old, lying dirtbag self. Clearly he was not that to these women. He must have had some charm, some physical attraction to have been even middlin' good at what he did -- with men and women. It's also hard to imagine Marion as gullible, vulnerable, and trapped in Wonka's lies. We want her to be so much better than that. Even Sally only knew her mum from a 20 year old's perspective. ( I just learned a few months ago that my 92 year old [narcissistic] mother had an affair throughout her 70s while married to my stepfather. I had NO idea.) We don't really know our parents unless we live long enough. And are willing to know the unpleasant parts of them.

Wise words there. It’s only in later life we really discover who are parents are.. and secrets surface… myself a sister I never knew about..
So most def SL only knew the 20 years she had and to be honest at 20 I had no idea who my parents were. The same can also be said for RB children…
However, other family members of mine knew, and most likely others in your family knew of your mums affair.. family secrets are always held tight by a ‘few’. So makes me wonder if Mrs Wonka knows more… it’s easier to shelter kids than it is partners… especially when everything you do is ‘odd’ behaviour… and when your past is dodgy.

 

[ruby925]

Hi all, I've been continuing my research at The Keep (East Sussex Records Office), but don't have much to report. The DH family were not on the electoral register during their time at Mottynsden Lodge in Burwash.

As background Mottynsden was purchased by Commander V in 1932, and he and his wife lived there until 1967, when they sold the manor house and moved into the lodge. Mrs V, by then a widow, died on 3/7/82. The property has stayed under the ownership of the son, DV, since then. DV owned and lived in another nearby property, so presumably rented the lodge out, but is now living there (he is listed as living there in the 2019 edition of Debrett's Peerage, available online).

As we know the DH family were listed as living at the Lodge on 1/12/84 on their chilldrens' baptism record, and then the next evidence I can find of anyone else living in it is the 1987 electoral roll, when there is different family of 4 listed as living at the Lodge. The qualifying date for this electoral roll was 10 October 1986, so we know that the DHs had definitely moved out by then.

I looked through local newspapers but they didn't reveal much. I did spot this article about krugerrand gold coin smuggling (see attached 1984 Sussex Express article), which isn't connected to Mr Wonka, but it does sound like the kind of activity he could be involved in, and would explain him parking his family in the UK and having an excuse for coming backwards and forwards from Europe regularly. I have done a UK news search and there seems to have been quite a bit of this gold coin smuggling going on in the 1980s before the VAT rules were changed, and Luxembourg was one of the countries with no VAT on hold at the time.

Interesting info about the lodge and also about the gold, I believe this smuggling went on on a much smaller scale too, wouldn't surprise me if Mr Wonka was involved in this type of thing.

 

[BonnieB]

Very possible. But why? Surely not because he held a torch for MC…? Mrs Wonka said he knew the both… FR & MC… so why FR?
You are on the money if MB was left oS going to police snd reporting a man who didn’t exist.. especially when he didn’t travel on FNR passport.. he is a ghost.

I'm not sure of the why, but Wonka held onto that FNR licence for five years before deciding to use it in a 'love scam' with the ad in the Le Courier Australien. He may have held a grudge with the real FNR for some reason but there would be no doubt in his mind that by using such an uncommon alias it would lead authorities to the real FNR.

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

I'm not sure of the why, but Wonka held onto that FNR licence for five years before deciding to use it in a 'love scam' with the ad in the Le Courier Australien. He may have held a grudge with the real FNR for some reason but there would be no doubt in his mind that by using such an uncommon alias it would lead authorities to the real FNR.

Yes and quite possibly Marion too IF she was left OS..

 

[Meligator]

I'm not sure of the why, but Wonka held onto that FNR licence for five years before deciding to use it in a 'love scam' with the ad in the Le Courier Australien. He may have held a grudge with the real FNR for some reason but there would be no doubt in his mind that by using such an uncommon alias it would lead authorities to the real FNR.

I’d guess he was using it for something else, we just don’t know what.

 

[Jay_Tec]

Actually, as an initial plan, this makes more sense. Falsify enough ID in the FNMR name for the accomplice to transfer the money to another dodgy account in Europe while Marion was in the UK. He then withdraws from that account in Europe, closes the account and flies back to Australia, disappears back to his house in the sticks, grows a beard and lies low for a while. He can retrieve the cash from wherever it is safely hidden in a bank box at a later date. Marion is left high and dry and who would she report to police? FNR! who didn't really exist. And the real FNR would have had police knocking on his door soon enough.
Edit - added thought. I don't think it's a coincidence that Marion believed and wrote Luxembourg on her paperwork. I think it was RB's plan all along to implicate the real FNR.

Exactly my sense of it. I don't particularly believe Marion wrote Luxembourg housewife on her paperwork, however, certainly the confusion would arise that the real FNR with whom Wonka had some sort of rivalry would have been investigated, if anyone made it that far.

 

[Jay_Tec]

Very possible. But why? Surely not because he held a torch for MC…? Mrs Wonka said he knew the both… FR & MC… so why FR?
You are on the money if MB was left oS going to police snd reporting a man who didn’t exist.. especially when he didn’t travel on FNR passport.. he is a ghost.

Imagine, had she survived to approach the police... penniless, disconnected, in shock, in extreme emotional distress... reporting tales of a man who doesn't exist, whom she'd never been sighted with by anyone...

I live in the UK and can assure she would have been lucky if the police even held one proper conversation with her. At best, she would have been advised to contact the Australian embassy and hope to be flown home. At worst, she could have been considered a nuisance or risk, psychiatric assessed, detained, and forcibly medicated.

 

[Jay_Tec]

Has anyone worked out how the JO scam was meant to work? He must have expected JO to be away from her home for perhaps a few days longer than she was but surely he couldn't have arranged the sale of her property in just a few days or even a week. Upon her return she immediately put a caveat on the property. So, if it wasn't the property, what did he hope to gain? A few pieces of jewellery? A few documents?

Just ideas:

He could have completely emptied the property of all furniture, antiques, valuables, electronic equipment etc ?

He could have falsely let the property to prospective tenants, taking a hefty deposit, a couple of months down payment and a months rent in advance (old scam trick people used to run on vacant homes)?

Is there some type of quick cash turn around sales where a bargain company buys the home immediately ? Property auction ?

He could have ordered high value items or bought things with promises to pay using the address ?

I need to refresh on how exactly it was the JO baulked and came home but perhaps she wasn't ever meant to. Maybe she had far more of a lucky escape than we've realised as a third party was in fact intended to do her in?

 

[BonnieB]

Exactly my sense of it. I don't particularly believe Marion wrote Luxembourg housewife on her paperwork, however, certainly the confusion would arise that the real FNR with whom Wonka had some sort of rivalry would have been investigated, if anyone made it that far.

So, if we agree that this initial plan makes the most sense, what happened when his carefully stacked cards fell asunder?

Did he hire another accomplice to return on the FNMR passport? For what reason?

Did the accomplice already in Australia leave on an alias passport and return using the FNMR passport? Again, why? Too complicated IMO

Or did Marion return to sort out the bank account using her own passport? This is the most logical explanation IMO. It also explains why Marion said she would be out of communication with SL for a while.

 

[BonnieB]

Just ideas:

He could have completely emptied the property of all furniture, antiques, valuables, electronic equipment etc ?

He could have falsely let the property to prospective tenants, taking a hefty deposit, a couple of months down payment and a months rent in advance (old scam trick people used to run on vacant homes)?

Is there some type of quick cash turn around sales where a bargain company buys the home immediately ? Property auction ?

He could have ordered high value items or bought things with promises to pay using the address ?

I need to refresh on how exactly it was the JO baulked and came home but perhaps she wasn't ever meant to. Maybe she had far more of a lucky escape than we've realised as a third party was in fact intended to do her in?

RB abandoned JO with no cash, sent her to a relatives home in UK to borrow her fare home. Now, I expect he thought that would give him a few days leeway, but not more than a week. There is no evidence that JO owned valuable antique furniture or artworks. Property conveyance in Australia is not something achieved in a few days unless he had another "naive & cashed up" victim lined up. Even then, I can't see someone handing over thousands of dollars without legal checks on the ownership of the property. It just doesn't make sense to me.

 

[BonnieB]

Something that still puzzles me!

According to inquest testimony:

• MB's application for the passport in the name of FNMR is signed by the Dentist at QTUH on Friday 16 May 1997 (and the date I have for name deed poll name change is 15 May 1997?).
• MB then flies out of Brisbane using that passport on Sunday 22 June 1997

Assuming that the signed application was probably lodged on the next business day Monday 19 May 1997, that leaves only 25 business days for the passport to be processed and returned. Even today it is recommended that you leave 6 weeks for processing and seem to remember it was longer in 1997. The timeline is very tight, so MB would have to have good justification for priority processing?

There's also this statement at inquest about MB applying for a new passport on 6 July 1996 as well.

This tight timeline for the delivery of her new passport explains why she either forgot to change her bank accounts to her new name or simply ran out of time.