Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #11

[BonnieB]

I believe that is the maximum that could be withdrawn in cash, per day, from that particular account.

I assume the idea was to transfer the money elsewhere (possibly overseas?) leaving no paper trail behind, ie no cheques, no electronic transfers to a different bank.

I can't say why she used this method, but the inquest testimony stated that she later went to her home branch and withdrew $80k in one withdrawl.

I was wondering about the timing of this October withdrawl. Was it precipitated by SL's phone call to the bank, and the discovery that, although reportedly overseas, Marion's account was being 'drained' in Byron Bay?

After the bank employee told SL about the withdrawls, I can't imagine it stopped there. I fully expect the bank would have frozen Marion's account. (side note, that happened to me around 2005 when my bank card was compromised and a suspicious withdrawl was flagged by the bank).

In that case, Marion would have had to show up in person at her home branch, and go through verification procedures to get access to her account, and also to make that huge final withdrawl. Further according to testimony, she explained her 'suspicious' actions to the staff person as deliberately seeking to disappear from her family.

I personally think a fraudster can much more easily defraud a single woman than defraud a bank.

JMO

I believe the large withdrawal took place on 15/10/97 and SL called the bank 4 days later on 19/10/97

 

[gymtonic]

Insight re why MB paid for her Queensland Board of Teacher Registration for the following year up front (as per 2nd resignation letter 16 June 1997)

SL questioned why MB would do this if she was going overseas for the next 12 months, but there is a possible simple explanation and the reason why also did this for a while when I resigned from classroom teaching...renewing an existing registration was cheaper and had fewer procedures than letting your registration lapse and having to re-apply if you decided you needed it after all. IMO MB as a qualified teacher thought there might be a possibility she would teach again and thus it was more cost effective to continue paying for annual registration. I imagine many ex-teachers do this, as BTR registration is sometimes required for non-classroom education roles too.

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

I believe the large withdrawal took place on 15/10/97 and SL called the bank 4 days later on 19/10/97

So by the time SL found out it was completely empty… I’m curious was the account closed?

 

[gymtonic]

Something that still puzzles me!

According to inquest testimony:

• MB's application for the passport in the name of FNMR is signed by the Dentist at QTUH on Friday 16 May 1997 (and the date I have for name deed poll name change is 15 May 1997?).
• MB then flies out of Brisbane using that passport on Sunday 22 June 1997

Assuming that the signed application was probably lodged on the next business day Monday 19 May 1997, that leaves only 25 business days for the passport to be processed and returned. Even today it is recommended that you leave 6 weeks for processing and seem to remember it was longer in 1997. The timeline is very tight, so MB would have to have good justification for priority processing?

There's also this statement at inquest about MB applying for a new passport on 6 July 1996 as well.

 

[LEO123]

I'm so baffled by this. Despite that I live in a huge city, there is no way I could make daily cash withdrawals at a bank. Firstly the bank like to have a little notice to ensure they have cash ready to dispense. Secondly they would want to do plenty of ID checking. Then more for all manner of reasons, not least to ensure this person is safe to walk down the street, and isn't doing something reckless or strange. Then just to say hey perhaps there's a product or service we can offer you that is a better way of going about this transaction. Even if I took a chunk of cash on day one, by day two or three, the manager is going to say please can we have a chat and see if you need financial advice. Also that would be seriously flaring the radar of what the heck is going on here.

Maybe back in the 90s one could say that they are cash purchasing a high value large item such a second hand yacht or something but wouldn't a bank manager be flagging up to a customer that such transactions can go wrong ?

Absolutely agree. The only reason I can come up with is, whoever was making the withdrawals convinced the Manager or Accountant that this was how it was going to be done. Manager speaks to Teller, and person withdrawing went to the same Teller each day. Having worked in a Bank I can say some people would wait for a certain Teller because they “know” the customer and don’t have to identify themselves. After the very first transaction in this case most probably. You wouldn’t forget someone taking out $5000 in cash per day. Not sure why they went to a different branch a couple of times. Sometimes Tellers would go to a different branch for a day here or there if another branch was short staffed. But that seems unlikely. They would need forewarning of the Teller being away.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Hi ya'll. I've seen several questions in the last two threads on why $5000 was withdrawn rather than a lump sum or transfer.

In the first half of inquest last year, the Colonial Bank in Ashmore (Marion's main bank and where she had her mortgage) said that when her house sold and mortgage was discharged, the money was placed in high interest earning account that had a daily withdrawal limit amount of $5000.

So, one can assume this was consistent with everyday accounts regular people had in 1997.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

All bank staff at the time were trained in suspicious activity, such as withdrawing:

• at a branch that wasn't your usual branch
• large amounts in a short period of time (such as daily withdrawals for a month)
• anything over $10k in one transaction (unless it was to buy a house)
• from the same teller over and over again (a measure for bank to identify and stop its own staff from stealing)

All this regardless of if / how much ID is needed to withdraw money.

I believe that even if it was Marion withdrawing her own cash, her activity was highly suspicious, but for some reason it wasn't flagged. If it was simply a dodgy or inexperienced teller, the bank manager or assistant manager would have spotted it and investigated for fraud or money laundering.

So I too suspect the bank teller that served 'Marion' was either a manager or assistant manager. As someone mentioned earlier, it had to be someone with sufficient authority where no-one else was checking or supervising their work.

Also at the inquest last year, it was mentioned that Colonial was transitioning to Commonwealth and that staff from each took shifts at other branches, all over the area.

 

[gymtonic]

Hi ya'll. I've seen several questions in the last two threads on why $5000 was withdrawn rather than a lump sum or transfer.

In the first half of inquest last year, the Colonial Bank in Ashmore (Marion's main bank and where she had her mortgage) said that when her house sold and mortgage was discharged, the money was placed in high interest earning account that had a daily withdrawal limit amount of $5000.

So, one can assume this was consistent with everyday accounts regular people had in 1997.

I think that the whole “bank procedures” part of the inquest is quite confusing. I agree that DM who was the Ashmore Colonial Bank Manager at the time (and later CommBank after merger) said that the Daily Limit for the High Performance Cash a/c was $5000. However, elsewhere it was stated that as it was MB’s money it was only limited by the amount in the a/c. I would think that if MB had wanted to close the account she could do it by transferring the whole amount to another a/c if she wanted to rather than run it down by taking out the limit in cash each day. There may have been a penalty but it surely would be possible to do it if your circumstances changed and that’s what you wanted to do? It would be useful if the different bank officers giving evidence and statements clarified the processes simply in context rather than in abstract terms.
It was like trawling through mud to come to the understanding that the accounts were initially with the Colonial State Bank which became the responsibility of the CommBank due to a merger between the 2 banks in 2000 (or at least that’s what I understood eventually!)

 

[Deleted member 249471]

So, most of us suspect the possibility that RB took Marion overseas with the intention of stealing her money from the UK, but the plan failed when Marion didn't transfer all of it, so he was forced to drag her back to Aus, right?

But what do you all think about this...

What if it was the opposite? What if RB took Marion overseas to distract, isolate and eventually dispose of her, while... say... a female accomplice remained in Aus to steal her money and was supposed to place it in their joint security envelope? But the accomplice couldn't because Marion hadn't changed her bank accounts to her new FNMR name, so RB had to return with Marion?

Is this viable?

 

[centred]

My thoughts exactly.

He wouldn't have owned up to knowing her, unless there was absolute proof that he did.

I was thinking that something tangible that linked him to Marion was found, either at a residence or in a bank.
It could be paperwork or one or more of her belongings.

It could be a witness who saw him with something that belonged to Marion, or maybe even saw them together.

Good point and it must have been something solid for him not to be able to come up with a story, fanciful or not.

Is there still a box current ? I thought they spoke of one current and the previous ones in 97 ?
Just curious if so they may have a used a warrant and found some papers or something else that was a definite link he could nt deny

 

[gymtonic]

So by the time SL found out it was completely empty… I’m curious was the account closed?

I have tried to unravel the mysteries of the accounts according to testimony at inquest and the best I can do is that maybe there were 2 accounts with Colonial (supported by a note that GC at Byron Police had made on file with 2 account numbers). Supported also by statements by GS at CommBank that there was around $14,000 that was left unclaimed and was sent to “Unclaimed Funds” (perhaps after stop placed on account?). However, also stated that the $80,000 “transfer” made from the Ashmore Branch closed that account.
Hopefully the police can make more sense of it than I can LOL!

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Seeing as Marion only transferred $20k (equivalent to about $37,500 today) I don't believe she had any real intention of being a housewife in Luxembourg, relocating overseas permanently, or buying a house or school abroad.

I believe she expected to return to Aus to attend Sally's wedding, buy a smaller apartment in QLD, and return to teaching in Aus, once she felt safe doing so.

I also don't think Marion ever married, or believed she married RB. Going back to occam's razor, we know RB told MC that he was a secret agent and MANY conmen use that as a cover story. I think he used this lie on Marion too. I believe he must've scared her to death saying her life was also in danger, and this is why she was stressed, concealed things from family and friends (for their own safety), and moved so hastily.

I feel this is how RB got Marion to change her name and be consistent with her lies on customs cards – he might've told her she was safer using an alias and backstory, and the Remakel alias was tested and safe.

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

So, most of us suspect the possibility that RB took Marion overseas with the intention of stealing her money from the UK, but the plan failed when Marion didn't transfer all of it, so he was forced to drag her back to Aus, right?

But what do you all think about this...

What if it was the opposite? What if RB took Marion overseas to distract, isolate and eventually dispose of her, while... say... a female accomplice remained in Aus to steal her money and was supposed to place it in their joint security envelope? But the accomplice couldn't because Marion hadn't changed her bank accounts to her new FNMR name, so RB had to return with Marion?

Is this viable?

Certainly possible

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

Good point and it must have been something solid for him not to be able to come up with a story, fanciful or not.

Is there still a box current ? I thought they spoke of one current and the previous ones in 97 ?
Just curious if so they may have a used a warrant and found some papers or something else that was a definite link he could nt deny

I think they have found something too. I wonder if a warrant can be used when it is an inquest?

 

[Deleted member 249471]

I have tried to unravel the mysteries of the accounts according to testimony at inquest and the best I can do is that maybe there were 2 accounts with Colonial (supported by a note that GC at Byron Police had made on file with 2 account numbers). Supported also by statements by GS at CommBank that there was around $14,000 that was left unclaimed and was sent to “Unclaimed Funds” (perhaps after stop placed on account?). However, also stated that the $80,000 “transfer” made from the Ashmore Branch closed that account.
Hopefully the police can make more sense of it than I can LOL!

I've been trying to unravel this too! Starting by figuring out how much cash she had vs what was taken:

• sold house for $165k (Colonial Ashmore)
• $20k available through Barclay's UK / Commonwealth
• whatever she had in savings from teaching for 30 years
• $80k lump sum withdrawn (Colonial Ashmore)
• $5k withdrawn daily for 3.5 weeks = $85k to $120k (Commonwealth Byron and Burleigh Heads)

One theory I have is that before Marion went overseas, she might've transferred half the money she had in her Colonial to a new account at Commonwealth Byron. For all we know, Byron could've been her 'usual branch' for that account. And that is the account linked to Barclay's UK. If this did happen, RB persuaded her to do it for his own reasons... he is known to use Commonwealth. Obviously, I have no proof, just a theory.

 

[gymtonic]

Seeing as Marion only transferred $20k (equivalent to about $37,500 today) I don't believe she had any real intention of being a housewife in Luxembourg, relocating overseas permanently, or buying a house or school abroad.

I believe she expected to return to Aus to attend Sally's wedding, buy a smaller apartment in QLD, and return to teaching in Aus, once she felt safe doing so.

I also don't think Marion ever married, or believed she married RB. Going back to occam's razor, we know RB told MC that he was a secret agent and MANY conmen use that as a cover story. I think he used this lie on Marion too. I believe he must've scared her to death saying her life was also in danger, and this is why she was stressed, concealed things from family and friends (for their own safety), and moved so hastily.

I feel this is how RB got Marions to change her name and be consistent with her lies on customs cards – he might've told her she was safer using an alias and backstory, and the Remakel alias was tested and safe.

I mostly agree but other aspects not so sure! The fact that she had applied to a school in South Australia and also had applied to Sunshine Coast Grammar, was accepted and deferred taking up the position until 1998 (According to sister BW) speaks to an intention to return. But then maybe this was before FNR came along and maybe closer to the time of travel she had a few more options up in the air including teaching (or something education related?) in Europe.

I also don’t think she married him but I consider seriously the notion that she thought they were going to get married and took a preemptive action of changing her name and getting a passport. This is because I would think the use of that particular name as an alias to escape danger would be counterproductive. It flashes like a neon light rather than blending in to the background is what I am trying to say!

I am toying with 2 scenarios for the name change:
(1) RB suggests that her name after they marry should reflect his initials FN with the addition of her own name Marion and either he or she comes up with Florabella and Natalia for as yet undiscovered reasons
(2) MB acts on her own ahead of the “wedding”, mirrors his initials as a display of devotion and comes up with these names.
Again hugely IMO and MOO!

 

[gymtonic]

I've been trying to unravel this too! Starting by figuring out how much cash she had vs what was taken:

• sold house for $165k (Colonial Ashmore)
• $20k available through Barclay's UK / Commonwealth
• whatever she had in savings from teaching for 30 years
• $80k lump sum withdrawn (Colonial Ashmore)
• $5k withdrawn daily for 3.5 weeks = $85k to $120k (Commonwealth Byron and Burleigh Heads)

One theory I have is that before Marion went overseas, she might've transferred half the money she had in her Colonial to a new account at Commonwealth Byron. For all we know, Byron could've been her 'usual branch' for that account. And that is the account linked to Barclay's UK. If this did happen, RB persuaded her to do it for his own reasons... he is known to use Commonwealth. Obviously, I have no proof, just a theory.

Quite possibly, although at inquest it was stated that Barclays Bank was made the contact address for the Ashmore Branch account, as well as the recorded address for her Visa Card.

 

[Jay_Tec]

So, most of us suspect the possibility that RB took Marion overseas with the intention of stealing her money from the UK, but the plan failed when Marion didn't transfer all of it, so he was forced to drag her back to Aus, right?

But what do you all think about this...

What if it was the opposite? What if RB took Marion overseas to distract, isolate and eventually dispose of her, while... say... a female accomplice remained in Aus to steal her money and was supposed to place it in their joint security envelope? But the accomplice couldn't because Marion hadn't changed her bank accounts to her new FNMR name, so RB had to return with Marion?

Is this viable?

This is why I do not believe Marion returned to Aus. My story is:

A female impersonator used the Marion Barter identity in Aus, made the withdrawals.

This female, (maybe someone like 'Maz' in the UK had possibly even got to know and profile Marion a little in order to impersonate her and ask some questions).

They flew into Aus on the FNMR passport and then quite literally became Marion. They withdrew the funds, used the Medicare card, cancelled the RACQ, bought the small car, drove around selling Marion's goods from the storage boxes and dumped anything extraneous. Heck, they even wore Marion's clothes and used her handbag!

The sort of person who could perpetrate such cold blooded impersonation is one who:

a) is absolutely ASSURED there is no possibility of the real Marion popping up anywhere;

b) is a cool calm level headed person well used to document fraud, in person identity theft;

c) feels absolutely certain that even if security / police are alerted, they will not be detained on remand and can fairly quickly flit to another location and set up home in a different place;

Now... hmmmmm... what sort of a female person that Wonka knows could this possibly be ? I wonder how many aliases and different passports Mrs Wonka has used over the years ?

If the only 'evidence' that Marion flew back into Aus on the FNMR passport is a boarding card allegedly in her writing then that does not pass muster for me.

The tragedy of this version is that Marion's life ended abruptly and violently and we do not know where she is at rest.
I pray if this version is correct that Marion's life was taken quickly, painlessly, and she may not have even been aware and that her remains or knowledge of her location can be ascertained.

 

[Jay_Tec]

I mostly agree but other aspects not so sure! The fact that she had applied to a school in South Australia and also had applied to Sunshine Coast Grammar, was accepted and deferred taking up the position until 1998 (According to sister BW) speaks to an intention to return. But then maybe this was before FNR came along and maybe closer to the time of travel she had a few more options up in the air including teaching (or something education related?) in Europe.

I also don’t think she married him but I consider seriously the notion that she thought they were going to get married and took a preemptive action of changing her name and getting a passport. This is because I would think the use of that particular name as an alias to escape danger would be counterproductive. It flashes like a neon light rather than blending in to the background is what I am trying to say!

I am toying with 2 scenarios for the name change:
(1) RB suggests that her name after they marry should reflect his initials FN with the addition of her own name Marion and either he or she comes up with Florabella and Natalia for as yet undiscovered reasons
(2) MB acts on her own ahead of the “wedding”, mirrors his initials as a display of devotion and comes up with these names.
Again hugely IMO and MOO!

It's clear that Wonka needed Marion to have his exact initials. FNMR. Mrs FNM Ramakel (like the older days terminology 'Mrs Fred Smith').
Wonka is a con artist, he habitually perpetrates financial fraud, plays with fake identities, and is a romance scammer. Fact.
Therefore, Marion did not elect to change her name to the exact same initials. She was suggested to, coerced to, brainwashed to.
Marion did not pre-emptively do this before marriage for her own reasons. She did it because she was told to.

So, why would a con artist and romance scammer who steals people's identities manipulate a woman to change her name to his exact initials and name?
Mrs FNM Ramakel ? Clearly, the whole point being that the initials are somewhat redundant in their long versions but identical...
She sees this as 'oh so super romantic'. Perhaps he even started calling her 'my little Florabella' as a love name in advance preparation.
For Wonka, it is important to him that some of her documents state 'FNM Ramakel' or 'Mrs FNM Ramakel'. This is no accident. It is for fraud.

Without even getting married, suddenly everything of Marion's is gone - her job, her family connection, her home, her possessions, her car, her identity, AND she's now located far out of her own country - literally the other side of the world!

Marion's flesh and blood living body and soul is the now the only thing standing between the predator and the end goal. It is no accident all of the above happened, it was rigorously planned to predate all Marion's attributes, paperwork, finances, possessions.

So, in the UK Marion no longer exists except in flesh and blood, nobody knows her, but an FNM Ramakel has a passport and documentation. Literally nobody, not one person on the planet knows Mrs FNM Ramakel so any female impersonator can play her. No accident.

I believe that Marion leaving her car with Sally to sell was in fact the biggest fly in the ointment. Everything else went super smoothly and that is why nobody has detected this horror crime for so long. I hope the perpetrators live long enough to be held to account and there is some semblance of justice.

 

[Estelle]

It's clear that Wonka needed Marion to have his exact initials. FNMR. Mrs FNM Ramakel (like the older days terminology 'Mrs Fred Smith').
Wonka is a con artist, he habitually perpetrates financial fraud, plays with fake identities, and is a romance scammer. Fact.
Therefore, Marion did not elect to change her name to the exact same initials. She was suggested to, coerced to, brainwashed to.
Marion did not pre-emptively do this before marriage for her own reasons. She did it because she was told to.

So, why would a con artist and romance scammer who steals people's identities manipulate a woman to change her name to his exact initials and name?
Mrs FNM Ramakel ? Clearly, the whole point being that the initials are somewhat redundant in their long versions but identical...
She sees this as 'oh so super romantic'. Perhaps he even started calling her 'my little Florabella' as a love name in advance preparation.
For Wonka, it is important to him that some of her documents state 'FNM Ramakel' or 'Mrs FNM Ramakel'. This is no accident. It is for fraud.

Without even getting married, suddenly everything of Marion's is gone - her job, her family connection, her home, her possessions, her car, her identity, AND she's now located far out of her own country - literally the other side of the world!

Marion's flesh and blood living body and soul is the now the only thing standing between the predator and the end goal. It is no accident all of the above happened, it was rigorously planned to predate all Marion's attributes, paperwork, finances, possessions.

So, in the UK Marion no longer exists except in flesh and blood, nobody knows her, but an FNM Ramakel has a passport and documentation. Literally nobody, not one person on the planet knows Mrs FNM Ramakel so any female impersonator can play her. No accident.

I believe that Marion leaving her car with Sally to sell was in fact the biggest fly in the ointment. Everything else went super smoothly and that is why nobody has detected this horror crime for so long. I hope the perpetrators live long enough to be held to account and there is some semblance of justice.

Excellent post, Jay_Tec! That's exactly how I feel about what happened to poor Marion.