Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #11

[Jay_Tec]

Funny you should mention the Isdal Woman. I was planning to write a post about some possible connections between these two cases, now that RB has entered the picture. Because the combination of Belgium, cheque fraud and aristocratic-sounding fake names made me think of perhaps the most mysterious case of them all.

For those who don't know, the Isdal Woman is the name given to an unidentified lady found dead and badly burnt on a forested hillside in Isdalen (Ice Valley) near the city of Bergen, Norway in 1970.

The police discovered she had done extensive travelling around Europe that year, using at least ten different identities. To this day, no one knows who she really was and what she was doing.

On most of her hotel registration cards she claimed to be from Brussels, Belgium.
We know RB may have spent quite some time in Brussels prior to 1970, as he was sentenced for various offences there every year from 1965-1969. Including theft, false documents and cheque fraud.

Someone earlier in the thread suggested that RB could have been part of a criminal gang early in his "career" in the 60s-70s.
The local police chief in Bergen in 1970 later said he was convinced that the Isdal Woman had been part of a cheque fraud gang, even if there was no definite proof.

Is it possible they knew each other and operated in the same circles in Belgium?

They both seem to use some fanciful names.
RB has been known by names such as Roger Lauzoney, Frederick de Hedervary and Richard Lloyd Westbury. Some of the Isdal Woman's false identities included Genevieve Lancier, Vera Lucile Schlosseneck and Alexia Zarna-Merchez.

She was observed meeting up with a man she probably knew on her travels in Norway, possibly an accomplice.

We don't know much about RB's activities in 1970, but he took a plane from Australia back to Belgium on 15 February 1970. The Isdal Woman begins her travels on 10 March 1970.

She is last seen, and probably dies, on 23 November 1970.
Two days later, on 25 November 1970, RB seems to be in Brussels to apply for a Visa back to Australia.

Wow! What a fascinating case, I shall research.

Are there any of Isdal Woman's names that align with any of RB's names?

Does anyone know if the names she used were those of victims whose documents she'd stolen or maybe she was just a fantasist ?

Also, even if they never actually knew one another, it kind of gives weight to the idea that people like RB and Isdal women can act as double acts.

 

[Untangle]

Are there any of Isdal Woman's names that align with any of RB's names?

Does anyone know if the names she used were those of victims whose documents she'd stolen or maybe she was just a fantasist ?

The police in Norway sent her various names to the police in Belgium and other European countries. But none of the names could be linked to anyone in particular. They appeared to be entirely made-up.
None of the Belgian passport numbers she had entered on hotel registration cards in Norway were found to exist either.

Here are the names she used, in chronological order:
Genevieve Lancier / Claudia Tielt / Vera Lucile Schlosseneck / Claudia Nielsen / Alexia Zarna-Merchez / E Welding / Vera Jarle / L Selling / Finella Lorck / Elizabeth Leenhouwer

And a BBC article presenting the case:
Isdal Woman: The mystery death haunting Norway for 46 years

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Thanks for the correction.

She says in the podcast that she gave him her bank card and pin number, so I think prosecuting the case would be problematic.

I did mean to flag that part though, since it shows that in 1998 it was possible for him to somehow withdraw $30k from a woman's bank account. I wonder whether or not it got flagged by the bank?

Good point, but it's unclear if he took the money out in one go, bought a bunch of things, or simply used it for his own expenses as though it were his own card. All we know is he said he was going to buy a fax and set a a business, but that never happened. Lol, I'd love to see the itemised list of his withdrawals and purchases!

 

[MrsWattle]

FWIW. I found some references in the IK years to MR in a Sydney newspaper in the horseracing section. He appeared to be an owner. If anyone is interested I can dig up.

Interesting indeed. Horse racing/ gambling aspect. I also would like to know if RB used the MR name to re-enter Australia. Poor Ilona being involved with The Wonka.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Oh I hadn't thought of that, but yes there very well could be an international type (coordinated) investigation. Lets hope. I don't know if anyone on here is knowledgeable about AU laws, but wondering if there are rules about what things must be included/shared with RB in brief of evidence (or what can be withheld). This case is about Marion, so I suppose the brief of evidence maybe doesn't need to include additional/unrelated information about RB--but I don't know if that's true. Seems like he was entitled to see the statements made by other victims, ahead of his testimony. I also wonder how it is decided what information remains private and to whom. Sally has info in the brief that she in unable to share. Does RB have access to the whole brief as well? Even today, its not really clear what information was being redacted from Sally for so many years. Seems like most of what has come out is all recently acquired knowledge.

Hmm, good questions I don't think all evidence police find goes into the brief of evidence. The brief is just a compilation of what is going to be spoken about at the inquest, including witness statements.

In a criminal case, both parties are given all the evidence so their lawyers can investigate, prepare a case, poke holes at it, and prepare questions. But at an inquest, RB isn't actually a 'party', he's a witness just like GGB, Salvos, bank, police, etc. So they don't need to be privy to evidence as they're not building a case in their defence, just speaking truthfully about what they know.

Also, all witnesses are questioned thoroughly before the brief is even compiled, and this questioning becomes their 'statement' which becomes part of brief. Some of the evidence police have will be revealed to them through this questioning, and yes, that evidence would need to be in brief.

Like you said, only info pertaining to Marion's case should be in brief, but even then, I think police can be selective about it so as not to compromise any other investigation - as coroner's police and homicide unit are in all contact.

The inquest really just needs to present enough evidence to determine the situation surrounding Marion's disappearance and whether Marion is likely deceased, which they're doing by:

• establishing that RB has a long history using aliases and lying to women with intent to steal from them
• establishing that RB is a compulsive lier, even under oath, which is consistent with how he lies to victims
• determining the link between RB and Marion
• through victims, establishing RBs MO which has similarities to Marion's final 6 months
  
• through bank and police, determining Marion is likely deceased due to no trail or activity since Oct 1997, and leaving significant funds at Barclays untouched.

There are SO MANY times I wished AC pressed RB further, but then realised they seem to be getting what they need to confirm Marion deceased with RB allegedly being involved in her disappearance, and RB possibly being the last to see her. IMO.

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

Yes, they can produce warrants and have access to all the same tools and methods regular police detectives use to obtain information.

That's because it's actually police who work with the coroners court that investigate the coroner's cases and who put together the brief of evidence for an inquest. Then, the Coroners lawyers step in to take all the evidence gathered by police and put the case together for the coroner.

Also, Marion's case has a separate suspected homicide unit, outside of the coroners court, who are working on her case, who I am sure is also working together with the coroners police unit.

Well that makes things very interesting. The denial of Marion then the back flip with the added stories really does make me think maybe there is some ‘evidence’ linking them

 

[Jay_Tec]

Interesting that Isdal woman's cause of death was a massive overdose of barbiturate pills combined with carbon monoxide poisoning.

So, someone could drive a person to a remote location, somehow force feed them pills or persuade them to take scores of pills, maybe they would be tied up, maybe at gun point, maybe a suicide pact (cult like).

Then once they have passed out, rig up the car to monoxide poison them, once they're dead, dump the body, set fire to it to cover forensic evidence. It's a sort of very cowardly hands off but strangely intense and time consuming very 1:1 type of murder that still yet leaves very little evidence - no blood spatter, no dirty clothes, no mess and gore. As opposed to say, physically overpowering someone, stabbing, shooting, etc. It speaks to a cowardly and yet calculating mind. Similar to that of our subject. It's almost a defiant and challenging stance - you may *think* whatever you like but PROVE IT, you can't!

 

[Deleted member 249471]

The police in Norway sent her various names to the police in Belgium and other European countries. But none of the names could be linked to anyone in particular. They appeared to be entirely made-up.
None of the Belgian passport numbers she had entered on hotel registration cards in Norway were found to exist either.

Here are the names she used, in chronological order:
Genevieve Lancier / Claudia Tielt / Vera Lucile Schlosseneck / Claudia Nielsen / Alexia Zarna-Merchez / E Welding / Vera Jarle / L Selling / Finella Lorck / Elizabeth Leenhouwer

And a BBC article presenting the case:
Isdal Woman: The mystery death haunting Norway for 46 years

Thanks for this Only just started digging into it, but it already reminded me of the case of Jennifer Fairgate at a Norwegian hotel as all her clothes labels were cut off. Lol, it even links to the Isdal Woman as a comparable case.

 

[gymtonic]

Funny you should mention the Isdal Woman. I was planning to write a post about some possible connections between these two cases, now that RB has entered the picture. Because the combination of Belgium, cheque fraud and aristocratic-sounding fake names made me think of perhaps the most mysterious case of them all.

For those who don't know, the Isdal Woman is the name given to an unidentified lady found dead and badly burnt on a forested hillside in Isdalen (Ice Valley) near the city of Bergen, Norway in 1970.

The police discovered she had done extensive travelling around Europe that year, using at least ten different identities. To this day, no one knows who she really was and what she was doing.

On most of her hotel registration cards she claimed to be from Brussels, Belgium.
We know RB may have spent quite some time in Brussels prior to 1970, as he was sentenced for various offences there every year from 1965-1969. Including theft, false documents and cheque fraud.

Someone earlier in the thread suggested that RB could have been part of a criminal gang early in his "career" in the 60s-70s.
The local police chief in Bergen in 1970 later said he was convinced that the Isdal Woman had been part of a cheque fraud gang, even if there was no definite proof.

Is it possible they knew each other and operated in the same circles in Belgium?

They both seem to use some fanciful names.
RB has been known by names such as Roger Lauzoney, Frederick de Hedervary and Richard Lloyd Westbury. Some of the Isdal Woman's false identities included Genevieve Lancier, Vera Lucile Schlosseneck and Alexia Zarna-Merchez.

She was observed meeting up with a man she probably knew on her travels in Norway, possibly an accomplice.

We don't know much about RB's activities in 1970, but he took a plane from Australia back to Belgium on 15 February 1970. The Isdal Woman begins her travels on 10 March 1970.

She is last seen, and probably dies, on 23 November 1970.
Two days later, on 25 November 1970, RB seems to be in Brussels to apply for a Visa back to Australia.

Yes, I sent a tip through to the podcast detailing what I thought might be the links…aliases, Belgium, etc plus….Including that IK actually resembles quite strongly the artist sketch of Isdal Woman. If IK had disappeared and not died in Australia it would have been stronger. I did consider though that the IK who returned married to MJR was not the same one who left. All of this is part of my tendency towards the theory of involvement in a bigger OC connection. No proof and IMO and MOO but I have sent through to tips line.

EDIT: The reason I didn’t mention it (a and my tips report) before in detail on this forum was because I thought it breached rules…something about referring to other podcasts?!…and I still remain a little confused about those rules. So it was a hunch on my part rather than discovering anything)

 

[mishy66]

Funny you should mention the Isdal Woman. I was planning to write a post about some possible connections between these two cases, now that RB has entered the picture. Because the combination of Belgium, cheque fraud and aristocratic-sounding fake names made me think of perhaps the most mysterious case of them all.

For those who don't know, the Isdal Woman is the name given to an unidentified lady found dead and badly burnt on a forested hillside in Isdalen (Ice Valley) near the city of Bergen, Norway in 1970.

The police discovered she had done extensive travelling around Europe that year, using at least ten different identities. To this day, no one knows who she really was and what she was doing.

On most of her hotel registration cards she claimed to be from Brussels, Belgium.
We know RB may have spent quite some time in Brussels prior to 1970, as he was sentenced for various offences there every year from 1965-1969. Including theft, false documents and cheque fraud.

Someone earlier in the thread suggested that RB could have been part of a criminal gang early in his "career" in the 60s-70s.
The local police chief in Bergen in 1970 later said he was convinced that the Isdal Woman had been part of a cheque fraud gang, even if there was no definite proof.

Is it possible they knew each other and operated in the same circles in Belgium?

They both seem to use some fanciful names.
RB has been known by names such as Roger Lauzoney, Frederick de Hedervary and Richard Lloyd Westbury. Some of the Isdal Woman's false identities included Genevieve Lancier, Vera Lucile Schlosseneck and Alexia Zarna-Merchez.

She was observed meeting up with a man she probably knew on her travels in Norway, possibly an accomplice.

We don't know much about RB's activities in 1970, but he took a plane from Australia back to Belgium on 15 February 1970. The Isdal Woman begins her travels on 10 March 1970.

She is last seen, and probably dies, on 23 November 1970.
Two days later, on 25 November 1970, RB seems to be in Brussels to apply for a Visa back to Australia.

Yes, I sent a tip through to the podcast detailing what I thought might be the links…aliases, Belgium, etc plus….Including that IK actually resembles quite strongly the artist sketch of Isdal Woman. If IK had disappeared and not died in Australia it would have been stronger. I did consider though that the IK who returned married to MJR was not the same one who left. All of this is part of my tendency towards the theory of involvement in a bigger OC connection. No proof and IMO and MOO but I have sent through to tips line.

EDIT: The reason I didn’t mention it (a and my tips report) before in detail on this forum was because I thought it breached rules…something about referring to other podcasts?!…and I still remain a little confused about those rules. So it was a hunch on my part rather than discovering anything)

Yes, I sent a tip through to the podcast detailing what I thought might be the links…aliases, Belgium, etc plus….Including that IK actually resembles quite strongly the artist sketch of Isdal Woman. If IK had disappeared and not died in Australia it would have been stronger. I did consider though that the IK who returned married to MJR was not the same one who left. All of this is part of my tendency towards the theory of involvement in a bigger OC connection. No proof and IMO and MOO but I have sent through to tips line.

EDIT: The reason I didn’t mention it (a and my tips report) before in detail on this forum was because I thought it breached rules…something about referring to other podcasts?!…and I still remain a little confused about those rules. So it was a hunch on my part rather than discovering anything)

Wow. Wow. Wow!!!
I am blown away by all of this !

I haven't been here that long and missed all the info on the Isdal Woman and earlier connections to the thread suggestions that RB could have been part of a criminal gang early in his "career" in the 60s-70s.

This really peaked my interest today because some time ago I made some unusual connections to RB and other people and sent what I found to TLV.
And I could not post up what I found as there is no doubt RB / family are reading everything here and we have to be so careful that we don't jeopardise the outcome of this case.

Some of it had a connection to a post, with a link attached, on here which later had 'disappeared' ( edited maybe) or (asked admin to delete). But whatever it was, it was gone pretty soon as it was posted up, but I took a screen shot of it because it was very unusual and was posted up randomly between other conversations.

And all of what I found sits within what you are both saying here.

I am totally floored by all of this.

I have no doubt now that this case is way bigger than anyone thought.

 

[gymtonic]

Wow. Wow. Wow!!!
I am blown away by all of this !

I haven't been here that long and missed all the info on the Isdal Woman and earlier connections to the thread suggestions that RB could have been part of a criminal gang early in his "career" in the 60s-70s.

This really peaked my interest today because some time ago I made some unusual connections to RB and other people and sent what I found to TLV.
And I could not post up what I found as there is no doubt RB / family are reading everything here and we have to be so careful that we don't jeopardise the outcome of this case.

Some of it had a connection to a post, with a link attached, on here which later had 'disappeared' ( edited maybe) or (asked admin to delete). But whatever it was, it was gone pretty soon as it was posted up, but I took a screen shot of it because it was very unusual and was posted up randomly between other conversations.

And all of what I found sits within what you are both saying here.

I am totally floored by all of this.

I have no doubt now that this case is way bigger than anyone thought.

You might be able to get back to the earlier stuff through this post when @ChrysStevenson and I were posting? And my earlier comments about maybe (IMO) RB being a “bagman” (can’t remember when that was now).
Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #10

 

[Satchie]

Do you know what time line that would be ? What month was she stranded ? How much time was he buying ? Because whatever that time frame is, is exactly how much he needs. Four weeks? Two months?

It was more like 2-3 weeks. He called Dec 16, proposing return dates of Dec 29 or early Jan.

Instead, her cousin assisted her to get back to the house 4 days later, Dec 20. RB appeared that morning. If he'd been there in the days before hand - she'd last seen him on the 11th - she doesn't mention noticing anything awry.

I think the few days around Christmas would be a bad time to try to sell off house contents, etc.

Just occurred to me, he maybe needed to spend Christmas with his wife and family, and keeping her in the UK might have been a ruse to disguise that he was married, and keep her from connecting with her own children. I also think he wanted to get into her house to do a thorough snoop around and possibly steal a few things.

 

[Estelle]

I think Wonka being high on coercion, manipulation, and romance scamming, probably said something like 'hey if we're to be married, I need to spend quality alone time with you to see how well we get along, let's have a week in 'x' location with no one else involved, just me and you, no phone calls, no nothing, like being on a retreat' - might have even suggested an actual spiritual retreat or rent a cottage in a remote fishing village or god knows what - 'tell them not to worry if they don't hear much from you for the next month'.

However, RB had already flown back to Australia two days before Marion made that last phone call saying that she would be out of contact for a while so your theory does not make sense to me. IMO she was forced to make that call.

 

[KiwiNZ]

Just listening to the inquest again.

RB stated he was in Coles Supermarket when he got a call about his mothers(?) death so he must have had a mobile phone in 1990, or another lie ?

• Deceased 12 February 1990 - Tournai, Hainaut (B), aged 76 years old

Maria Coppenolle : Family tree by Didier VANCOPPENOLLE (vancop) - Geneanet

 

[Newby171]

Just listening to the inquest again.

RB stated he was in Coles Supermarket when he got a call about his mothers(?) death so he must have had a mobile phone in 1990, or another lie ?

• Deceased 12 February 1990 - Tournai, Hainaut (B), aged 76 years old

Maria Coppenolle : Family tree by Didier VANCOPPENOLLE (vancop) - Geneanet

I also thought GGB said that RB received a phone call from a woman, making her think he may not be single, at the inquest.

 

[gymtonic]

Thanks for this Only just started digging into it, but it already reminded me of the case of Jennifer Fairgate at a Norwegian hotel as all her clothes labels were cut off. Lol, it even links to the Isdal Woman as a comparable case.

You would really like the DIIV podcast!

 

[BonnieB]

Just listening to the inquest again.

RB stated he was in Coles Supermarket when he got a call about his mothers(?) death so he must have had a mobile phone in 1990, or another lie ?

• Deceased 12 February 1990 - Tournai, Hainaut (B), aged 76 years old

Maria Coppenolle : Family tree by Didier VANCOPPENOLLE (vancop) - Geneanet

Yes, I noted that too and in 1990, just 3 years after the first "brick" was released in Australia, a mobile phone was a luxury only the rich could afford. He must have been the only pensioner in Australia who could afford one.

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

Thanks for this Only just started digging into it, but it already reminded me of the case of Jennifer Fairgate at a Norwegian hotel as all her clothes labels were cut off. Lol, it even links to the Isdal Woman as a comparable case.

I did mention this case awhile back and queried whether Mr aka might have been in Europe in May/June 1995?

The use of a fake British name for the victim and the perpetrator going by the name of Lois Fairgate. The fake but almost real Belgium address. The perpetrator leaving the victim on her own for much of the time.

I know the chances are slim but this guy used violence in the end. As Mr aka was in the Belgium gendarmerie would he have possessed a service issued or stolen weapon whilst living in or moving around Europe?

 

[Jay_Tec]

Just listening to the inquest again.

RB stated he was in Coles Supermarket when he got a call about his mothers(?) death so he must have had a mobile phone in 1990, or another lie ?

• Deceased 12 February 1990 - Tournai, Hainaut (B), aged 76 years old

Maria Coppenolle : Family tree by Didier VANCOPPENOLLE (vancop) - Geneanet

Possibly his wife rang him via the Supermarket if she knew he was heading there and wanted to give him urgent news?
It seems so strange to us nowadays but people did used to ring the pubs and the shops and say is my husband there, I need to tell him something.
Goes without saying, could also be a lie

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Timeline upon return to Aus

Late 1996
The dH family move from 16 Howards Cres, Ballina to 8 Rubiton St, Wollingbar. Daughter is driven to high school every day, son goes to Lismore Uni by public transport, both live at house.

Thur 31 July 1997
Arrives in Aus: Richard Lloyd Westbury

Sat 2 Aug 1997
Arrives in Aus: Florabella Natalia Marion Remakel

Thur 7 Aug 1997
RACQ membership and policy cancelled by either phone call or in person

Mon 11 Aug 1997
FDdH bought a white, second-hand Mitsibishi Magna

Wed 13 Aug 1997
Marion’s Medicare card used at optometrist at Grafton Shoppingworld

Late Aug - early Sept 1997
$5k withdrawn daily for 3.5 weeks at Commonwealth Byron, and 3 days in middle at Burleigh Heads, totalling between $85k to $120k

Mid Sept - mid Oct 1997
What are ‘Marion’s’ movements for this month? Why is there no activity?

Fri 15 Oct 1997
$80k withdrawn from Colonial State Bank, Ashmore

Mon 18 Oct 1997
Owen’s birthday, no one’s heard from Marion which is completely out of character

Thur 21 - Wed 22 Oct 1997
Sally calls a friend at customs who tell her Marion returned to Aus. Also calls Commonwealth telebanking who inform her of Byron Bay withdrawals. Makes missing person report at Byron Police.

Sun 30 Nov 1997
Mitsibishi Magna sold

Late 1997
The dH family move from Wollingbar back to ‘The Terrace’, Ballina