Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #11

[Deleted member 249471]

Going back to a line of questioning in the inquest, can anyone explain or suggest, what is the issue about Wonka flying with a Japanese airline on discount and then suddenly stopping doing so ? Was he (rightly or wrongly) travelling on an airline staff family member discount or something ?

That might explain why so many flights as some airlines used to give huge discounts for staff and their close family members.

The issue isn't so much that he was allegedly receiving a discount. The issue is that something happened in Japan or on JAP (airlines) that made RB abruptly stop going to Japan and using JAP, at exactly the same time Marion disappeared.

Literally, the last time RB used JAP was when he returned to Aus on Thur 31 July 1997, two days before Marion.

AC was trying to get to the bottom of why RB kept going to Japan and using JAP... alluding to that it was for reasons to do with his scams.

AC asked RB to explain how he could afford to travel internationally so frequently (sometimes 4 times a year) on an invalid pension, particularly as RB kept saying he received NO OTHER income.

RB explained that he was able to travel more than the average person because he was receiving free and discounted travel.

But there is no evidence (other than RB's word) that he was receiving a discount. And his explanation that he was given huge and regular discounts due to giving the airline exec a coin is dubious.

It's not really about the discount, it's about how he could afford to fly, what he was doing in Japan, and why it suddenly stopped. IMO

 

[Jay_Tec]

Car sold Sun 30 Nov 1997
46 days after the last of the money was withdrawn
39 days after Sally went to police

Not sure which state or who's registration it was under (I think it was under Diane in NSW) but the Reg was: PVC096

Interesting number plate, I don't know anything about Aus registrations but would such be 'desirable' ? PVC 096 - PV Co 96

 

[BonnieB]

Thinking about RACQ membership.. perhaps Marion was cranky, SL was supposed to sell Marions car and hadn’t….Marion thought stuff it, I’m cancelling the membership!

There was the conversation on memory of what’s happening with the car?

Was the car purchased in Qld or NSW? Registered in which state?

the reason given at inquest by Mrs Wonka was their daughter had a job she needed to get to work.. but that theory doesn’t hold up as she would have not have been able to drive the car without a full licensed driver with her…she would have been. ‘L’ plate driver at the time.

I believe it was purchased for Mr Wonka to go to and fro… to his family and to wherever Marion was.

When did Wonka then sell the car? Wasn’t it the end of 97? IMO car was used for a specific purpose during a specific time frame…

and that purpose had nothing to do with Daughter needing a car. If that were true the car wouldn’t have been sold before she turned 17 and able to actually drive it.

The car was purchased on 11th August (not sure in which state) and sold on 30th November. As you pointed out, his daughter would not have been able to drive the car alone until April 1998 so DdH's explanation doesn't hold water. IMO, as you said, it was purchased for a more sinister reason.

 

[Jay_Tec]

IF Wonka is on disability and says he's unfit or unable to drive, can he even be registered / licenced / insured to drive a car in Aus ?

 

[Deleted member 249471]

IF Wonka is on disability and says he's unfit or unable to drive, can he even be registered / licenced / insured to drive a car in Aus ?

His invalid pension in Aus seems to be about difficulty walking and PTSD. He never claimed he couldn't drive. In fact he revealed he sometimes did. But that his wife had the car to shuttle kids to and from school and swimming every day, so he had no access to the main car, which supposedly was their only car (until the second car they owned for just 3 months).

 

[Jay_Tec]

The issue isn't so much that he was allegedly receiving a discount. The issue is that something happened in Japan or on JAP (airlines) that made RB abruptly stop going to Japan and using JAP, at exactly the same time Marion disappeared.

Literally, the last time RB used JAP was when he returned to Aus on Thur 31 July 1997, two days before Marion.

AC was trying to get to the bottom of why RB kept going to Japan and using JAP... alluding to that it was for reasons to do with his scams.

AC asked RB to explain how he could afford to travel internationally so frequently (sometimes 4 times a year) on an invalid pension, particularly as RB kept saying he received NO OTHER income.

RB explained that he was able to travel more than the average person because he was receiving free and discounted travel.

But there is no evidence (other than RB's word) that he was receiving a discount. And his explanation that he was given huge and regular discounts due to giving the airline exec a coin is dubious.

It's not really about the discount, it's about how he could afford to fly, what he was doing in Japan, and why it suddenly stopped. IMO

Thanks for explaining.

Will investigators be able to establish if / what basis he was getting discounted flights?

When I worked for an airline in the 90s they gave up to 95% discount for staff member and their spouse or a child. Could Wonka have secured himself an airline staff partner somehow ?

 

[BonnieB]

What if the car was the one thing that allowed Marion to identify RB? If she had become suspicious & made notice of the car tag,he may have known it wasn’t safe for him to just disappear like he did with other women. Is the car the reason she had to go missing?

Correct!

 

[centred]

Car sold Sun 30 Nov 1997
46 days after the last of the money was withdrawn
39 days after Sally went to police

Not sure which state or who's registration it was under (I think it was under Diane in NSW) but the Reg was: PVC096

Hi I am wondering about the dates and timeline and if we are to decipher what happened when :
This period here is confusing "Late Aug - early Sept 1997
$5k withdrawn daily for 3.5 weeks at Commonwealth Byron, and 3 days in middle at Burleigh Heads, totaling between $85k to $120k "

Late August to early Sept , is not 3 or 5 weeks interval ?
The withdrawals either started much earlier for either the 3 or 5 weeks to work or ends much later , so the question what was being done for a month is a misnomer IMO . Probably not verified exactly so we have to have some leeway here .

The canceling Policy and membership i think would be related to buying the car , depending on where and how the car was purchased and then recorded in the system re rego name etc , the 11th is obviously significant to LE so it must be seen as indicative to a path of proof of ownership and i suggest this can only be due to rego transfer or renewal paperwork, it is possible the purchase Date itself may vary slightly , I know without checking for a definite but the Motor Registry has requirements of time to do the transfer ranging from 7 days and 21 days to finalize (a fee can be charged for not doing so within the time frame )
So all i can say and see is the 2 most likely are connected , If because of transferring policy and service to the new car ? maybe , for a refund ? i doubt it but possible i guess .

Cancelling it on MB car which is still in possession of Sally ? Is this when it was found out that her car had not been sold and indeed the membership transaction on the 7th August revealed this fact .? I mean how else would MB have known that fact when apparently "mentioning " it to someone that Sally had not yet sold the car ..?

I am just trying to go through your timeline to refine some thinking on what was going on and why, when what and how

 

[KiwiNZ]

Interesting number plate, I don't know anything about Aus registrations but would such be 'desirable' ? PVC 096 - PV Co 96

No that is a standard issue number plate in Aus

 

[gymtonic]

Thinking about timeline upon return to Aus… the RACV cancellation is unusual and might shed light on Marion’s final days.

For starters, cancelling her membership 5 days upon return to Aus is a weird thing to do.

If she returned alone to try to extract herself from RB and his con, RACV would’ve been the last thing on her mind.

If she was tying up loose ends to move overseas permanently, would she really yank the membership for the car Sally now used, without telling Sally? Let alone, not telling Sally she was permanently leaving? That’s also weird.

Perhaps Marion or RB received a letter for a bill (today it’s about $100 per month / $1000 per year) and that prompted them to cancel it? But where would the bill be sent? It couldn’t have been Leslie’s. And I doubt it was RB’s house.

It’s worth noting that if you pay upfront and you decide to cancel, it takes weeks to process but you get a refund.

The two most straightforward theories I can think of are:

1. RB went through Marion’s wallet to see if he could milk anything else out of her. Perhaps he wondered if he could transfer the membership to his new vehicle? But he couldn’t so he just took the refund. For reference, RACV was cancelled on Thur and the car purchased on Mon.

This theory would mean that RB already had control Marion’s wallet and therefore, possibly her bank cards (so he could start withdrawing her funds), and her Medicare to visit optometrist. Also worth noting: DdH wears glasses.

2. RACV and medicare were used simply to make it look as though Marion was still alive. It would look very suspicious if Marion returned from overseas ONLY to withdraw wads of cash and disappear never to be seen again. The activity definitely makes you consider that she really did return and might've withdrawn the money herself.

What are your thoughts?

This was one of the things I was unclear on from the statement…

One of the things I am not clear on was whether the RACQ that was cancelled was RACQ “membership” or RACQ “insurance”. RACQ membership would be in a person’s name and would give them reciprocal coverage in NSW as part of the allied Australian Automobile Association and cancelling that would impact on the accumulated membership year levels (silver, gold etc). When I lived overseas I kept my membership to keep up the benefit levels. RACQ insurance on the other hand would be for a nominated vehicle and you would cancel or transfer that if selling old and buying new car.

I guess the assumption is that it was RACQ insurance rather than membership because of the transfer of the car to SL’s name. But if it was RACQ membership that was cancelled then it would shed an entirely new light on it (because MB would loose her accumulated years/levelling up benefits).
If we assume it was the insurance it is still quite possible that it just expired and not renewed on this date rather than was actively cancelled? I can’t be absolutely sure but car insurance could be paid upfront or monthly by direct debit at this time (or even for some things if you were a teacher automatically taken out of your salary) so maybe MB pre arranged with RACQ for it to lapse on a particular date? I am hoping that police are investigating all these loose ends to make sure that such things are not red herrings.

 

[centred]

What if the car was the one thing that allowed Marion to identify RB? If she had become suspicious & made notice of the car tag,he may have known it wasn’t safe for him to just disappear like he did with other women. Is the car the reason she had to go missing?

I cant agree that would be a good enough reason "she had to go missing "
Getting rid of the car is enough to cut any association if that was a concern .

I suggest Marions money paid for that car regardless of anything else and she may have been under the impression it was her car when purchased for her use back home to do whatever she came back to do ...IMO I know some people believe she didn't come home , regardless the car was bought for the game to play out IMO

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Thanks for explaining.

Will investigators be able to establish if / what basis he was getting discounted flights?

When I worked for an airline in the 90s they gave up to 95% discount for staff member and their spouse or a child. Could Wonka have secured himself an airline staff partner somehow ?

No worries It's definitely possible he found himself a victim who was staff. It's also possible he was posing as staff himself, like say.. an off duty pilot. Perhaps like the one seen at the school with Marion?

Something that stands out to me is that on his EU trip with JO, they went to Bali first. My feeling is that he never likes to travel direct and prefers to make stopovers. And up until Marion disappeared, his stopover was Japan.

Why? I suspect it's to obscure his tracks. I believe he may be using these stopovers to switch his identity and passport.

For example, he leaves Aus on his legal and known passport and makes a stopover so he can enter Europe on a new ticket under another alias. Just a thought. I may be sorely mistaken, lol.

 

[gymtonic]

Going back to a line of questioning in the inquest, can anyone explain or suggest, what is the issue about Wonka flying with a Japanese airline on discount and then suddenly stopping doing so ? Was he (rightly or wrongly) travelling on an airline staff family member discount or something ?

That might explain why so many flights as some airlines used to give huge discounts for staff and their close family members.

My guess (but I admit this is because I am still leaning towards the connections with crime syndicate theory) is that investigations are trying to discover who paid for all his travel whilst on the surface he appears to have very little money coming in! Perhaps they have a lead on particular routes being taken by syndicates at that time?

EDIT: I just saw @Peralta ’s post so …yes, all that she said!

 

[centred]

This was one of the things I was unclear on from the statement…


I guess the assumption is that it was RACQ insurance rather than membership because of the transfer of the car to SL’s name. But if it was RACQ membership that was cancelled then it would shed an entirely new light on it (because MB would loose her accumulated years/levelling up benefits).
If we assume it was the insurance it is still quite possible that it just expired and not renewed on this date rather than was actively cancelled? I can’t be absolutely sure but car insurance could be paid upfront or monthly by direct debit at this time (or even for some things if you were a teacher automatically taken out of your salary) so maybe MB pre arranged with RACQ for it to lapse on a particular date? I am hoping that police are investigating all these loose ends to make sure that such things are not red herrings.

Just to clarify ..re membership and Insurance ...My experience is both as my membership allows me access to all other insurances and discounts on both .

 

[gymtonic]

Timeline upon return to Aus

Late 1996
The dH family move from 16 Howards Cres, Ballina to 8 Rubiton St, Wollingbar. Daughter is driven to high school every day, son goes to Lismore Uni by public transport, both live at house.

Thur 31 July 1997
Arrives in Aus: Richard Lloyd Westbury

Sat 2 Aug 1997
Arrives in Aus: Florabella Natalia Marion Remakel

Thur 7 Aug 1997
RACQ membership and policy cancelled by either phone call or in person

Mon 11 Aug 1997
FDdH bought a white, second-hand Mitsibishi Magna

Wed 13 Aug 1997
Marion’s Medicare card used at optometrist at Grafton Shoppingworld

Late Aug - early Sept 1997
$5k withdrawn daily for 3.5 weeks at Commonwealth Byron, and 3 days in middle at Burleigh Heads, totalling between $85k to $120k

Mid Sept - mid Oct 1997
What are ‘Marion’s’ movements for this month? Why is there no activity?

Fri 15 Oct 1997
$80k withdrawn from Colonial State Bank, Ashmore

Mon 18 Oct 1997
Owen’s birthday, no one’s heard from Marion which is completely out of character

Thur 21 - Wed 22 Oct 1997
Sally calls a friend at customs who tell her Marion returned to Aus. Also calls Commonwealth telebanking who inform her of Byron Bay withdrawals. Makes missing person report at Byron Police.

Sun 30 Nov 1997
Mitsibishi Magna sold

Late 1997
The dH family move from Wollingbar back to ‘The Terrace’, Ballina

Great summary. And also to add to this:
1 October: RB pays $13 from their joint account for safe custody envelope at Commonwealth Bank at Ballina, assumed A3 size envelope and only RB can access (Bank Manager statement)

7 October: RB cancels safe custody envelope at Commonwealth Bank Ballina.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Late August to early Sept , is not 3 or 5 weeks interval ? The withdrawals either started much earlier for either the 3 or 5 weeks to work or ends much later , so the question what was being done for a month is a misnomer IMO .

It sucks that the Byron bank dates have never been confirmed What we know is the daily $5k was withdrawn in 3.5 weeks between Aug and Sept, yes?

Give or take, 3.5 weeks roughly fits between late Aug and early Sept. It definitely could NOT have been early Aug or late Sept, right? But activity between late Aug and early Sept is a safe assumption, no? Did you calculate it a different way?

 

[gymtonic]

Just to clarify ..re membership and Insurance ...My experience is both as my membership allows me access to all other insurances and discounts on both .

Yes, I know it is possible to have both but did MB have both? And if so, we’re both cancelled? This is what I mean by loose ends being cleared up rather than assumptions. I also have RACQ membership but not RACQ car insurance as multiple policies with another provider give me a better discount on car insurance.

What I am trying to say is that if it was car insurance only “cancelled” then it can be explained by giving car to SL and letting it lapse and may not add any weight to MB’s movements or intentions.

However, if the RACQ membership was cancelled as well then it lends more weight to an alternative perspective ie MB’s intention to start a new life and that it is her doing the cancelling (because you wouldn’t get much refund from cancelling RACQ membership in 1997 and you would lose benefits you might accumulate).

 

[centred]

It sucks that the Byron bank dates have never been confirmed What we know is the daily $5k was withdrawn in 3.5 weeks between Aug and Sept, yes?

Give or take, 3.5 weeks roughly fits between late Aug and early Sept. I definitely could NOT have been early Aug or late Sept, right? Did you calculate it a different way?

Sorry late Sept and early August

"What we know is the daily $5k was withdrawn in 3.5 weeks between Aug and Sept, yes?"

Yes that sounds right during August and Sept ..

Your timeline states 3.5 weeks roughly fits" between" late Aug and early Sept."

To me that reads the withdrawals were made between late August through to early Sept ?
Maybe the way it is written in the timeline that is confusing.

So if your saying the transactions started in early August through to early Sept then yes that makes more sense .
Filling in the gaps in time may be clarified a bit more when the inquest begins again IMO

 

[Jay_Tec]

Yes, I know it is possible to have both but did MB have both? And if so, we’re both cancelled? This is what I mean by loose ends being cleared up rather than assumptions. I also have RACQ membership but not RACQ car insurance as multiple policies with another provider give me a better discount on car insurance.

What I am trying to say is that if it was car insurance only “cancelled” then it can be explained by giving car to SL and letting it lapse and may not add any weight to MB’s movements or intentions.

However, if the RACQ membership was cancelled as well then it lends more weight to an alternative perspective ie MB’s intention to start a new life and that it is her doing the cancelling (because you wouldn’t get much refund from cancelling RACQ membership in 1997 and you would lose benefits you might accumulate).

If Marion's mail was going to her sister's (I think), is it possible that after Marion going missing for a while and failing to acknowledge her son's birthday... also knowing that the car had now gone to Sally, that the sister 'returned to sender' such types of mail or statements, stating the person has started a new life overseas? And that would have by default cancelled such policies?

 

[Deleted member 249471]

This was one of the things I was unclear on from the statement…

I guess the assumption is that it was RACQ insurance rather than membership because of the transfer of the car to SL’s name. But if it was RACQ membership that was cancelled then it would shed an entirely new light on it (because MB would loose her accumulated years/levelling up benefits).
If we assume it was the insurance it is still quite possible that it just expired and not renewed on this date rather than was actively cancelled? I can’t be absolutely sure but car insurance could be paid upfront or monthly by direct debit at this time (or even for some things if you were a teacher automatically taken out of your salary) so maybe MB pre arranged with RACQ for it to lapse on a particular date? I am hoping that police are investigating all these loose ends to make sure that such things are not red herrings.

All I know is that the podcast specifically said membership and policy. I know nothing about RACQ. I do think this could truly shed light on whether she was or wasn't in Aus, but I don't understand it and can't deduce possible reasons and effects. Can you explain it to me again please? Also, I don't think direct debit was available in 1997, pretty sure you took your bills to the post office or bank and made payments there