Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #14

[BonnieB]

Just on this bit…

Maybe he said that they were going to be married in Europe but that it would take some time to organise with special licences (or similar story) and that it would make it easier in the interim if she had the same surname and can change it before leaving as it was not that complicated and he knew how to do it. As part of the excitement maybe she could change her first name too? Was there anything she really wanted or dreamt about being called? [some playful brainstorming ensued and Florabella Natalia is settled on].

The reason I thought of this was that I actually got married 3 days before emigrating and sent my passport away for the name change prior to the official wedding, but I could only pick it up on the way to the airport and by producing the marriage certificate. Maybe to save all that drama (which seems very risky in terms of precision timing I relate it!), the idea to get a deed poll name change ahead of the wedding might have seemed a better option! It would explain why MB ticks not married on the ongoing card too? But that she expected to be married soon.

How it plays out after that I am yet to settle on…

I agree, that all sounds plausible and is probably how it happened. I also played with idea that, because of Marion's love of florals on her china, clothes and decor, he may have called her the pet name of "my little Florabella". Realizing her initials would also be FR if she used the Florabella name, it's not a stretch to imagine them adding the Natalia to match completely - how romantic!

 

[mishy66]

IMO, it's a bit of both! I think she started 'covering' for him way back when he was in prison in France. I bet Grease was her favourite movie - good girl falls for the 'bad' boy. As @mishy66 said, she couldn't possibly have been oblivious to his wheeling and dealing for 40 odd years. What she didn't know about, were the other women and his affairs except MC, and I believe she left him back in 1980 when she found out about her. He may have been able to talk his way out of GGB and JO with his concocted stories in court but I think his goose was cooked when that letter was read for all the world to hear. Absolutely humiliating for Diane! It must have been the last straw for his daughter as well.
If DdH hasn't actually participated in any of his scams over the years, he should be VERY worried that she will give the police the evidence they need to hang him by his musical testicle. IMOO

 

[mishy66]

There’s always been one aspect of the story that baffled me, re:
« A friend of mine worked in customs so I asked them to check Mum’s passport.

It confirmed that she had returned to Australia on August 2 - just a day after I’d spoken to her. »

If SL didn’t know about MB’s name change, she would have asked the friend to check for a passport in the name MB? How then did the friend know that the passport FNMR entering on August 2 was MB? How was the link made? Yes, you can match outgoing passport numbers but wouldn’t you just report back first that there was no evidence of a passport in MB’s name leaving or entering? Wouldn’t it take a fair while to connect dots with a deed poll name change? I feel like I am either missing something simple or….?

Yes it is baffling, but I took it as the writeup was poorly edited and that when Sally went to the State Archives to confirm the spelling of the name, she then contacted her friend at Customs to check the passport under that name.

 

[KiwiNZ]

There’s always been one aspect of the story that baffled me, re:
« A friend of mine worked in customs so I asked them to check Mum’s passport.

It confirmed that she had returned to Australia on August 2 - just a day after I’d spoken to her. »

If SL didn’t know about MB’s name change, she would have asked the friend to check for a passport in the name MB? How then did the friend know that the passport FNMR entering on August 2 was MB? How was the link made? Yes, you can match outgoing passport numbers but wouldn’t you just report back first that there was no evidence of a passport in MB’s name leaving or entering? Wouldn’t it take a fair while to connect dots with a deed poll name change? I feel like I am either missing something simple or….?

I think they explained this as your old name is linked to your new name when you get a new passport, but very strange the friend didn't say anything about a new name, ( they had already broken 1 law / or employment policy, why not break another) because if it is linked they would have known she had 2 names

And if this is correct how has RB get away with going unoticed and unlinked to his "other/old" names ?

 

[gymtonic]

I agree, that all sounds plausible and is probably how it happened. I also played with idea that, because of Marion's love of florals on her china, clothes and decor, he may have called her the pet name of "my little Florabella". Realizing her initials would also be FR if she used the Florabella name, it's not a stretch to imagine them adding the Natalia to match completely - how romantic!

Hmmm…I mean it’s always possible that she didn’t know that his initials were FN (or she might have smelt a rat)? Maybe he played loose again and « just call me Ric… Ric R » and if documents are seen or if questioned he’s prepared to say « oh, I don’t use my real name just my nickname because….. »[insert some semi plausible story why people have always called him Ric]. Maybe that’s why MB kept the M in the new name so she could also say that « I mostly go by my middle name M » (If necessary). It’s common, many people do that. I guess we have to remember that in day to day life most people aren’t scrutinising people’s stories for inconsistencies until they smell a rat.

The way I see AKA is as setting the bar low and always pushing the bar higher to see what story he can get away with. When he is sprung or someone gets suspicious he has an exit strategy and cuts and runs. If it doesn’t work, move on to the next mark/ scam target.

 

[gymtonic]

Just been reading over the postcards and letter again Marion sent.
It is heartbreaking knowing what we know now - her writings are so uplifting, like she is having the time of her life.
Not the sort of letters one would write if they were leaving forever and never wanting to see their loved ones again.

I have no doubt now she is traveling about on her own. She pretty much indicates this numerous times.

The postcard to her sister marked 7 August 1997 where she says she has delayed her Orient Express trip until late August due to first available booking rescheduling from a recent flood is interesting.

She still has her heart set on this trip so there is no doubt she is doing it.

When she calls Sally that one last time to say she won't phone much as she is going to enjoy her holiday, I think she meant just that......."I don’t want to leave The UK just yet...."
She told Sally she would be back for her wedding the following October.
‘I’m going to take a good break now,’ Mum said. ‘I’m not going to keep writing postcards to everyone.’
‘Of course, take it easy Mum,’ Sally told her.

I think she was really finally unwinding after a horrendous year thanks to Glover and crew.

WHY would a postcard be posted on August 7 when Marion was supposedly back in Australia August 2nd.

And why would Marion declare she was only staying in Aust for 8 days, and staying in a hotel, and NOT contact Sally even if she felt embarrassed she had been duped. She could have called her friend Lesley to help her if she didn't want to reach out to Sally, but at some point I believe Marion WOULD have made contact with Sally. Her postcards home tell how much she loved her.

I can not believe that Marion would come into the country for ONLY 8 days and not start withdrawing her money straight away if that was the reason.

Why would Marion write "Luxembourg Housewife" on her entry card back into Australia when she was in the UK ???

I am back in the Marion did not come home camp.
I think she was killed overseas with one of RB associates - the same people JO was told to contact.
I think another female came in on FNMR passport.

Yes, indeed, all of that has been my position and I haven’t yet seen anything that really sways me strongly otherwise. I think the passport was sold on.
The postmarks on the postcards and timing of the phone call vis a vis the timing necessary to get a plane back to arrive by August 2 have always been my sticking points that have lead me to MB was still in the UK and oblivious to the fact that AKA had returned. I have looked at Jane Does in the UK and also in Amsterdam (mentioned on postcard as next stop), France (Paris as starting point for OE) and even Stops along the route. The online records aren’t that great but LE should have better access.
IMO. MOO

 

[BonnieB]

Just been reading over the postcards and letter again Marion sent.
It is heartbreaking knowing what we know now - her writings are so uplifting, like she is having the time of her life.
Not the sort of letters one would write if they were leaving forever and never wanting to see their loved ones again.

I have no doubt now she is traveling about on her own. She pretty much indicates this numerous times.

The postcard to her sister marked 7 August 1997 where she says she has delayed her Orient Express trip until late August due to first available booking rescheduling from a recent flood is interesting.

She still has her heart set on this trip so there is no doubt she is doing it.

When she calls Sally that one last time to say she won't phone much as she is going to enjoy her holiday, I think she meant just that......."I don’t want to leave The UK just yet...."
She told Sally she would be back for her wedding the following October.
‘I’m going to take a good break now,’ Mum said. ‘I’m not going to keep writing postcards to everyone.’
‘Of course, take it easy Mum,’ Sally told her.

I think she was really finally unwinding after a horrendous year thanks to Glover and crew.

WHY would a postcard be posted on August 7 when Marion was supposedly back in Australia August 2nd.

And why would Marion declare she was only staying in Aust for 8 days, and staying in a hotel, and NOT contact Sally even if she felt embarrassed she had been duped. She could have called her friend Lesley to help her if she didn't want to reach out to Sally, but at some point I believe Marion WOULD have made contact with Sally. Her postcards home tell how much she loved her.

I can not believe that Marion would come into the country for ONLY 8 days and not start withdrawing her money straight away if that was the reason.

Why would Marion write "Luxembourg Housewife" on her entry card back into Australia when she was in the UK ???

I am back in the Marion did not come home camp.
I think she was killed overseas with one of RB associates - the same people JO was told to contact.
I think another female came in on FNMR passport.

Yes, there are things that don't quite add up.

1. The postcard. Could Marion have left the card at the desk of her accommodation for them to post for her?
2. The 8 days on her incoming card. Did she believe that it would just take that long to sort things out and she'd be on a return flight to back to Lux.?
3. Why state married, housewife, Lux? Because she felt married?

My thoughts are that they either began the flight home together or met in Narita. Something happened there that involved witnesses to them being together; a car accident perhaps, something where authorities were involved and their names recorded. (that explains why, after MB died, he would never fly JL again)
PLAN B - RB flies home ahead and MB follows two days later. He meets her at the airport, takes her to pre-arranged accommodation. At this stage, DdH has no idea he has returned so he doesn't leave MB alone at all. He's afraid she will try to contact her family. They try to sort the accounts. She can open accounts in FNMR name using her passport and drivers licence but can't access her Barter accounts without more ID or someone who knows her to vouch for her. All she has is her key cards and the maximum she can withdraw with that is $5k per day. So his 'B plan' shifts to 'PLAN C'
JMO happy to entertain anything at this point.

 

[KiwiNZ]

Yes, there are things that don't quite add up.

1. The postcard. Could Marion have left the card at the desk of her accommodation for them to post for her?
.

I feel the date on the card could be something as simple as the post box not been emptied, or left at a hotel / B&B reception for them to post, they just forgot etc...

I am in the came back camp, because of the handwriting on the card and also I think the podcast The prosecutors summed it up in a way I found most believable and logical. But happy to be convinced otherwise

I am hooked on that podcast The Prosecutors now, love them lol

JMO

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

A couple of things I'm curious about, if anyone can fill in some more information please?

1) RB's romance with MC, how did it end? Was she being scammed? What happened with the boat purchase?

We heard the flowery romance letter. I imagine this is how all his scams commence. The letter ends in stating he has found a 40 foot boat, perfect for 'their plans'. This is how all his scams develop - a plan to run away together. I believe he was intending to scam MC for the boat money, and more.

- How did MC 'end' the development of the relationship?

- How did MC decline to fund the boat purchase?

- Did he make direct requests to MC for funds?

- Has MC perhaps been his accomplice?

Narcs only admire people they can't scam and deceive. They have contempt and disdain for those who are gullible enough to go along with and believe their lies. Clearly MC didn't go along with any of it and therefore, RB elevated her to 'equal' and respected. MC must have qualities he rates as being 'superior' to other women, whether she's a fellow Narc or has outstanding beauty, skills, intelligence, or wealth. Narcs also love a partner in crime, 'it's me and you against the world' mentality. Getting one over on the world that hurt them in infancy. I believe we need to know far more about this relationship.

2) Re: Being beaten up and robbed

So IIRC we were informed RB being beaten and robbed of every possession precipitated his being granted a free flight by Japan Airline, after he met and chatted with a member of staff based on the desk in an office above the concourse. Is that correct? That this was the incident that led to him repeatedly using JAP

- Where did this happen? Amsterdam? Schipol?

- Why would anyone badly beat someone to rob ALL their possessions?

- Was this an incident of revenge or payback by one of his victims?

- He says he went to hospital, was there any evidence of that?

- Was the incident reported to the police and claimed on insurance?

- Did he 'groom' the member of staff into wanting to help him and thereby getting continued discount code for flights subsequently?

- Was it not more likely to have been a FEMALE member of staff who took pity on him?

- Did she then suddenly end the relationship, sussed him out, hence he never dare flew JAP again?

I've got a sneaky feeling that RB met his match one time, someone he'd scammed, who had friends set about him, beat him, rob all his stuff and leave him with nothing. He kept saying 'I was left with nothing' - well isn't that just what he does to his victims? Someone had him sorted out with a little payback maybe - they would only be able to find him entering the airport if they knew of his booked flight perhaps. I think there's been many many many people who sussed him out over the years.

 

[BonnieB]

Yes, indeed, all of that has been my position and I haven’t yet seen anything that really sways me strongly otherwise. I think the passport was sold on.
The postmarks on the postcards and timing of the phone call vis a vis the timing necessary to get a plane back to arrive by August 2 have always been my sticking points that have lead me to MB was still in the UK and oblivious to the fact that AKA had returned. I have looked at Jane Does in the UK and also in Amsterdam (mentioned on postcard as next stop), France (Paris as starting point for OE) and even Stops along the route. The online records aren’t that great but LE should have better access.
IMO. MOO

IMO, the timing for the passport to have been 'sold on' is even more unbelievable. Marion would have carried her passport on her person at all times, therefore it would need to be stolen after Marion's last call or she would have mentioned it to Sally. That doesn't leave any time to commit a murder, hide a body, 'doctor' a passport with a new photo and and forge an incoming card (in Marion's handwriting) for another female to use on 2nd Aug.
IMO, Marion's last call to Sally was made from Narita JMO

 

[gymtonic]

Except... I am not saying it was the same physical passport but a forged one with the accurate details...if you see what I mean. When I said sold on I meant in the sense of selling the means for someone to illegally enter Australia. If you are aware someone is out of the country and you know their passport details, you can get someone else in with a forged passport in their name. Especially if you know the real person and the real passport is not coming back. I always go back to the "fact" that AKA (and his contacts) are known forgers and have specialised in false papers, documents and impersonation.
I have no proof JMO and one of the possibilities of many that I would happily ditch with evidence that contradicts.
A couple of reasons I am not convinced about the call being made from an airport (I believe that who ever made the trip came back Cathay Pacific via Hong Kong and not JAL via Tokyo according to the arrival card) is that airports payphone would require foreign currency coins (in a short stopover time??), people would normally use a credit card and SL distinctly remembers coins being involved. Plus SL has never mentioned hearing airport announcements which are almost unavoidable in airports.

 

[BonnieB]

A couple of things I'm curious about, if anyone can fill in some more information please?

1) RB's romance with MC, how did it end? Was she being scammed? What happened with the boat purchase?

We heard the flowery romance letter. I imagine this is how all his scams commence. The letter ends in stating he has found a 40 foot boat, perfect for 'their plans'. This is how all his scams develop - a plan to run away together. I believe he was intending to scam MC for the boat money, and more.

- How did MC 'end' the development of the relationship?

- How did MC decline to fund the boat purchase?

- Did he make direct requests to MC for funds?

- Has MC perhaps been his accomplice?

Narcs only admire people they can't scam and deceive. They have contempt and disdain for those who are gullible enough to go along with and believe their lies. Clearly MC didn't go along with any of it and therefore, RB elevated her to 'equal' and respected. MC must have qualities he rates as being 'superior' to other women, whether she's a fellow Narc or has outstanding beauty, skills, intelligence, or wealth. Narcs also love a partner in crime, 'it's me and you against the world' mentality. Getting one over on the world that hurt them in infancy. I believe we need to know far more about this relationship.

2) Re: Being beaten up and robbed

So IIRC we were informed RB being beaten and robbed of every possession precipitated his being granted a free flight by Japan Airline, after he met and chatted with a member of staff based on the desk in an office above the concourse. Is that correct? That this was the incident that led to him repeatedly using JAP

- Where did this happen? Amsterdam? Schipol?

- Why would anyone badly beat someone to rob ALL their possessions?

- Was this an incident of revenge or payback by one of his victims?

- He says he went to hospital, was there any evidence of that?

- Was the incident reported to the police and claimed on insurance?

- Did he 'groom' the member of staff into wanting to help him and thereby getting continued discount code for flights subsequently?

- Was it not more likely to have been a FEMALE member of staff who took pity on him?

- Did she then suddenly end the relationship, sussed him out, hence he never dare flew JAP again?

I've got a sneaky feeling that RB met his match one time, someone he'd scammed, who had friends set about him, beat him, rob all his stuff and leave him with nothing. He kept saying 'I was left with nothing' - well isn't that just what he does to his victims? Someone had him sorted out with a little payback maybe - they would only be able to find him entering the airport if they knew of his booked flight perhaps. I think there's been many many many people who sussed him out over the years.

MC questions - I think we'd all like to know the answers!

His stories of being "aggressed" - Lord knows, there's probably a long queue of people who would love to beat the S out of him, but without evidence I don't believe any of it. Even the one at Pacific carpark Qld, which was reported to police - was he robbed or did he lose the lot at Jupitor's casino?

 

[BonnieB]

Except... I am not saying it was the same physical passport but a forged one with the accurate details...if you see what I mean. When I said sold on I meant in the sense of selling the means for someone to illegally enter Australia. If you are aware someone is out of the country and you know their passport details, you can get someone else in with a forged passport in their name. Especially if you know the real person and the real passport is not coming back. I always go back to the "fact" that AKA (and his contacts) are known forgers and have specialised in false papers, documents and impersonation.
I have no proof JMO and one of the possibilities of many that I would happily ditch with evidence that contradicts.
A couple of reasons I am not convinced about the call being made from an airport eg Narita is that airports payphone would require foreign currency coins (in a short stopover time??), people would normally use a credit card and SL distinctly remembers coins being involved. Plus SL has never mentioned hearing airport announcements which are almost unavoidable in airports.

Maybe I'm missing something here. So, if we know MB was alive and well on 1st Aug - who landed in Australia on 2nd August?

 

[Deleted member 249471]

We have many new sleuths around. But generally worth a refresher. Here are The Rules of this forum.
If you're ever unsure, The Rules can always be found on the first page of every thread
In 'Etiquette & Information' there's info on private messaging and emails.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Maybe I'm missing something here. So, if we know MB was alive and well on 1st Aug - who landed in Australia on 2nd August?

Some theorise that she could've made the call from anywhere and might've been in transit to Australia already.

 

[gymtonic]

I feel the date on the card could be something as simple as the post box not been emptied, or left at a hotel / B&B reception for them to post, they just forgot etc...

I am in the came back camp, because of the handwriting on the card and also I think the podcast The prosecutors summed it up in a way I found most believable and logical. But happy to be convinced otherwise

I am hooked on that podcast The Prosecutors now, love them lol

JMO

Eeek? really? I couldn't keep listening as I thought they were very sloppy in their research and just cobbled it together from the podcast and in some cases "mis-cobbled"...simple geographical errors that should have been checked and actually would have created confusion if I didn't actually know differently. They reported MB came back for just 3 days when that news report has been corrected long ago..... they just said they couldn't see "any other reason" for a few things when there were many possibilities...just no evidence for or against as yet. Soz...calling Queensland a "province" probably irked me more than it should (LOL) and then the other errors compounded it and I switched off!

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Someone asked a while back, why would RB change his story about when and how he met Marion?
I don't know, but he also had about 3 different stories about how and when he met MC.
Whereas his stories about GGB and JO were fairly consistent.
I'm still confused about how he met MC.

 

[gymtonic]

Maybe I'm missing something here. So, if we know MB was alive and well on 1st Aug - who landed in Australia on 2nd August?

In my scenario, we might never know. Australia is a difficult country to migrate to and to get visas or refugee status. Australian residency, citizenship is sought after (as AKA will testify!). Selling Oz "passports" or the means to enter Oz illegally is big business. Passports can a real stolen one, a forged one with fake identity or a forged one with stolen identity (Fredy David!). Moving people around countries for illegal activity with false docs is also possible. In the UK, boat loads of Eastern Europeans are trafficked, presented with passports for the journey, which are then collected at the other end, leaving them stranded and dependent as illegal immigrants. Australia has illegal immigrants who come in through various mechanisms. All I am saying is that AKA has moved in this world of forgery, impersonation etc and no one apart from MB and AKA knew about the FNMR name so taking the passport details and forging another passport, passing it on to someone who is willing to pay for the opportunity to get into Australia is not beyond the realms of possibility. I'm sure if you asked Border Police they would say people are attempting it everyday. JMO

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Someone asked a while back, why would RB change his story about when and how he met Marion?
I don't know, but he also had about 3 different stories about how and when he met MC.
Whereas his stories about GGB and JO were fairly consistent.
I'm still confused about how he met MC.

My sense of RB is his MO at all times is to obfuscate the truth.

He knows he's a liar, he deliberately lies, he CHOOSES to lie. He lies to confuse, deceive, unbalance, backfoot, every single person he comes into contact with. I imagine the person he has lied to the very most in this life is his wife. She knows.

In order to NOT look like a liar, RB chooses to tell the truth about things that have already happened, are proven and witnessed, and have no further ongoing consequences.

When he is attempting to figure out what another person does or doesn't know he uses prodding / poking responses - why would I do that? how could I do that? how would that work? why would anyone think that?

He's a smooth customer with a sharply honed skill, it's his lifelong profession. It's going to take a sharp and well experienced forensic detective with good psychology and psychiatry knowledge to catch him out.

It's easy to spot his patterns and traits though - the long pauses and stammering is one, the provocative 'why would I?' is another, the flaring of angry temper and forceful 'NO!'s are another, the pitiful denial voice when he says 'oh dear god no...', another. They're all clear clues.

It would serve well to transcribe his audio from the inquest, it becomes clear. However, sadly I personally don't have time.

 

[BonnieB]

Someone asked a while back, why would RB change his story about when and how he met Marion?
I don't know, but he also had about 3 different stories about how and when he met MC.
Whereas his stories about GGB and JO were fairly consistent.
I'm still confused about how he met MC.

He's flip-flopped around on all of them I think.
MC says it was a random meeting in a coffee shop, he denied that and says she came to his factory from memory.
GGB says he answered her ad, he denied that and said she approached him at a coin fair.
JO said he rang her out of the blue so to speak, he denied that and said they met in the RSL carpark.

In each case he tries to make it look less predatory, more like the women approached him. In MC's case, which really didn't matter, I think he denied meeting her in a coffee shop because THAT is how he also met Marion and that wouldn't look good. IMO, the flip-flopping over who placed what ad where in Marion's case is just smoke. But that's just MO.