Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #14

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I think they explained this as your old name is linked to your new name when you get a new passport, but very strange the friend didn't say anything about a new name, ( they had already broken 1 law / or employment policy, why not break another) because if it is linked they would have known she had 2 names

And if this is correct how has RB get away with going unoticed and unlinked to his "other/old" names ?

Did it go unnoticed? It's not unlawful to change ones name every year. So effectively no one could care.

As RB repeatedly stated at the Inquest when asked - 'because it is legal to do so'.

I'm going to suggest that from now on, there should be stringent policies on people changing their names which make things a lot more difficult for people like RB to do exactly what he just did.

OF NOTE: At the Inquest, RB was a great pains to explain how one's old passport is 'chopped in half' at the Post Office. I would suggest that, coming from RB, this is double-speak (one of his 'tells') to let us know that he had developed a system whereby he was able to both change his name AND hang on to the old passport intact.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

There's no solid proof putting them together in the UK. Many people visit the same places, though usually the places that tourists go to.

Sure, but there's no solid proof putting them together in Australia either.
No one's ever positively identified them together, anywhere

 

[gymtonic]

A couple of things I'm curious about, if anyone can fill in some more information please?

1) RB's romance with MC, how did it end? Was she being scammed? What happened with the boat purchase?

We heard the flowery romance letter. I imagine this is how all his scams commence. The letter ends in stating he has found a 40 foot boat, perfect for 'their plans'. This is how all his scams develop - a plan to run away together. I believe he was intending to scam MC for the boat money, and more.

- How did MC 'end' the development of the relationship?

- How did MC decline to fund the boat purchase?

- Did he make direct requests to MC for funds?

- Has MC perhaps been his accomplice?

Narcs only admire people they can't scam and deceive. They have contempt and disdain for those who are gullible enough to go along with and believe their lies. Clearly MC didn't go along with any of it and therefore, RB elevated her to 'equal' and respected. MC must have qualities he rates as being 'superior' to other women, whether she's a fellow Narc or has outstanding beauty, skills, intelligence, or wealth. Narcs also love a partner in crime, 'it's me and you against the world' mentality. Getting one over on the world that hurt them in infancy. I believe we need to know far more about this relationship.

2) Re: Being beaten up and robbed

So IIRC we were informed RB being beaten and robbed of every possession precipitated his being granted a free flight by Japan Airline, after he met and chatted with a member of staff based on the desk in an office above the concourse. Is that correct? That this was the incident that led to him repeatedly using JAP

- Where did this happen? Amsterdam? Schipol?

- Why would anyone badly beat someone to rob ALL their possessions?

- Was this an incident of revenge or payback by one of his victims?

- He says he went to hospital, was there any evidence of that?

- Was the incident reported to the police and claimed on insurance?

- Did he 'groom' the member of staff into wanting to help him and thereby getting continued discount code for flights subsequently?

- Was it not more likely to have been a FEMALE member of staff who took pity on him?

- Did she then suddenly end the relationship, sussed him out, hence he never dare flew JAP again?

I've got a sneaky feeling that RB met his match one time, someone he'd scammed, who had friends set about him, beat him, rob all his stuff and leave him with nothing. He kept saying 'I was left with nothing' - well isn't that just what he does to his victims? Someone had him sorted out with a little payback maybe - they would only be able to find him entering the airport if they knew of his booked flight perhaps. I think there's been many many many people who sussed him out over the years.

IMO just on point (2) the 3 stories of assaults and losing money/ possessions and the JAL contact are all additional features of a narrative that is indicative of the criminal circles (possible OCG connections) he has moved in and not necessarily to do with romance scams.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Just IMO, but I believe there is enough evidence for an inquest to determine they were likely together in the UK:

1. His pattern of behaviour of whisking women to EU as suggested to JO, GGB, MC.

2. Both RB and Marion's flights in and out of Australia just days apart (despite Marion saying she was going for a year).

3. RB going to Narita, and no proof of Marion going to Narita but somehow ending up with Narita stationery in the UK.

4. JO's experience with RB being eerily similar to Marion's account via postcards - the stopover, luggage storage, car hire, and English channel ferry.

5. Marion visiting locations RB lived and is familiar with. He also visited familiar locations with JO.

6. RB returning to Aus before his partners to allegedly steal from them.

At the end of the inquest, Smith gives a real good summary, numbering and describing each item of what thinks suggest RB's involvement (Day 12, 4:56:54).

 

[gymtonic]

deleted

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

Eeek? really? I couldn't keep listening as I thought they were very sloppy in their research and just cobbled it together from the podcast and in some cases "mis-cobbled"...simple geographical errors that should have been checked and actually would have created confusion if I didn't actually know differently. They reported MB came back for just 3 days when that news report has been corrected long ago..... they just said they couldn't see "any other reason" for a few things when there were many possibilities...just no evidence for or against as yet. Soz...calling Queensland a "province" probably irked me more than it should (LOL) and then the other errors compounded it and I switched off!

Yes agree the research was sloppy and a lot of mistakes. I did spend my time listening with comments oh for god sake 3 days??? Get your facts correct!

 

[gymtonic]

My sense of RB is his MO at all times is to obfuscate the truth.

He knows he's a liar, he deliberately lies, he CHOOSES to lie. He lies to confuse, deceive, unbalance, backfoot, every single person he comes into contact with. I imagine the person he has lied to the very most in this life is his wife. She knows.

In order to NOT look like a liar, RB chooses to tell the truth about things that have already happened, are proven and witnessed, and have no further ongoing consequences.

When he is attempting to figure out what another person does or doesn't know he uses prodding / poking responses - why would I do that? how could I do that? how would that work? why would anyone think that?

He's a smooth customer with a sharply honed skill, it's his lifelong profession. It's going to take a sharp and well experienced forensic detective with good psychology and psychiatry knowledge to catch him out.

It's easy to spot his patterns and traits though - the long pauses and stammering is one, the provocative 'why would I?' is another, the flaring of angry temper and forceful 'NO!'s are another, the pitiful denial voice when he says 'oh dear god no...', another. They're all clear clues.

It would serve well to transcribe his audio from the inquest, it becomes clear. However, sadly I personally don't have time.

Plus the times when he choses to say "No, Sir!" as opposed to "No!"

 

[gymtonic]

Did it go unnoticed? It's not unlawful to change ones name every year. So effectively no one could care.

As RB repeatedly stated at the Inquest when asked - 'because it is legal to do so'.

I'm going to suggest that from now on, there should be stringent policies on people changing their names which make things a lot more difficult for people like RB to do exactly what he just did.

OF NOTE: At the Inquest, RB was a great pains to explain how one's old passport is 'chopped in half' at the Post Office. I would suggest that, coming from RB, this is double-speak (one of his 'tells') to let us know that he had developed a system whereby he was able to both change his name AND hang on to the old passport intact.

He has reported a passport lost on more than one occasion, and got a replacement. Not so difficult for a forger to change the name and other deets, on the "lost" passport.

 

[BonnieB]

I think they explained this as your old name is linked to your new name when you get a new passport, but very strange the friend didn't say anything about a new name, ( they had already broken 1 law / or employment policy, why not break another) because if it is linked they would have known she had 2 names

And if this is correct how has RB get away with going unoticed and unlinked to his "other/old" names ?

I believe Sally was not informed of the name change until May 2011. From memory that is when she read the page of information on the police file. She then contacted her friend at customs who confirmed it. I'm guessing that police were able to search 'change of name' records to find it. By that time the trail was already 14 years old.

 

[ruby925]

He has reported a passport lost on more than one occasion, and got a replacement. Not so difficult for a forger to change the name and other deets, on the "lost" passport.

And as AC pointed out at the inquest, RB kept using his Westbury passport when he had already officially done another name change to (can't remember, might have been back to FDH). So his aliases didn't all match up on docs at any one time

 

[gymtonic]

Just on the illegal immigration that I mentioned earlier, I had found an Australian Govt Briefing Paper Boat People, Illegal Migration and Asylum Seekers: in Perspective from 1999-2000, and here's a short excerpt:

Air arrivals

Over the last few years, but without equivalent press coverage or sense of urgency, the number of people illegally arriving by air (that is with no valid entry documents or with forged documents) has also increased dramatically. In 1998-99, 2106 persons were 'refused immigration clearance' at airports, compared with 1550 in 1997-98, and 1347 in 1996-97. The main countries of citizenship of recent illegal air arrivals have been Iraq, Malaysia, South Korea, the People's Republic of China, India, and Thailand.

Most unauthorised arrivals detected at airports are turned around quickly; in 1998-99 1457 were removed from Australia within 72 hours. Of the 2106 illegal air arrivals in 1998-99, 615 were 'assessed as presenting information that, prima facie, may engage Australia's protection obligations'; in other words they succeeded in entering the asylum system. The main countries of citizenship of these were Iraq, Algeria and Iran.

Given the level of sophistication of organised illegal people movements, involving high quality forged documents, and the high volume of traffic through our major airports, it is probable that more people may be entering the country unauthorised and undetected by air than are arriving unnoticed in boats.

 

[ruby925]

Sorry to backtrack and maybe ask a stupid question... I understood Barclays bank had an agreement with Colonial that would facilitate MB to withdraw funds of up to 20k, poss never used as her passport was now FNMR.
Today I have read here that MB also had an actual bank account in London with Barclays with 20k deposited. I had not picked up that there were two lots of 20k. So could MB access the London account ie was it in her FNMR name, or was that also not accessed? Or is this all the same money, just different interpretations? Thanks in advance.

 

[BonnieB]

And as AC pointed out at the inquest, RB kept using his Westbury passport when he had already officially done another name change to (can't remember, might have been back to FDH). So his aliases didn't all match up on docs at any one time

Actually I think he did the same on another occasion:
1989 changed his name by deed poll to WOUTERS WILLY
11/10/91 traveled on RICHARD LLOYD WEST passport

 

[BonnieB]

Sorry to backtrack and maybe ask a stupid question... I understood Barclays bank had an agreement with Colonial that would facilitate MB to withdraw funds of up to 20k, poss never used as her passport was now FNMR.
Today I have read here that MB also had an actual bank account in London with Barclays with 20k deposited. I had not picked up that there were two lots of 20k. So could MB access the London account ie was it in her FNMR name, or was that also not accessed? Or is this all the same money, just different interpretations? Thanks in advance.

My understanding is that $20k was transferred to Barclays, London and Barclays at Rye was her forwarding address in UK. Both in the name of Barter. Please correct me if it's wrong.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

I didn't say there was

Sure, but there's no solid proof putting them together in Australia either.
No one's ever positively identified them together, anywhere

 

[mishy66]

MC questions - I think we'd all like to know the answers!

His stories of being "aggressed" - Lord knows, there's probably a long queue of people who would love to beat the S out of him, but without evidence I don't believe any of it. Even the one at Pacific carpark Qld, which was reported to police - was he robbed or did he lose the lot at Jupitor's casino?

Agree 100%. All just another made up bashing that he seems to use when he has valuables that he is wanting to hide.

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

See, I can't get my head around this. SURELY, MB would have had at least one card for the Barclays account so she could make purchases and/or withdraw cash at ATMS. If you were going travelling you wouldn't be popping into Barclays every 5 minutes to get cash out. Or am I missing something?

According the Bank Officer’s testimony, MB’s Visa card statement gave the address of Barclays Bank, Mint St, Rye as the recorded mailing address. This could mean that the Visa card was linked to the money and large purchases were made by credit cards and paid off in full each by prior arrangement. I lived O/S for 2 years 1996-1998 and this was the arrangements I made. You can take cash out on a credit card at an ATM. It’s not the most economical way of doing it because of ATM and other fees, but it can be done.

I was trying to remember how we did overseas ATM in the 90s. Thanks for the memory! It wasnt with an ATM card, it was with a credit card and pin. Difference was, it was my usual credit card but I had to have my bank assign a pin for European ID purposes. Marion's Barclay credit card OR credit card with the right network symbol on the back (these had to match atm) should have worked. Unless there was an ATM limit, which there usually is. Withdrawing more might have been the issue. But wasnt it clear she hadnt withdrawn anything? Did she forget the right credit card?

 

[mishy66]

Did it go unnoticed? It's not unlawful to change ones name every year. So effectively no one could care.

As RB repeatedly stated at the Inquest when asked - 'because it is legal to do so'.

I'm going to suggest that from now on, there should be stringent policies on people changing their names which make things a lot more difficult for people like RB to do exactly what he just did.

OF NOTE: At the Inquest, RB was a great pains to explain how one's old passport is 'chopped in half' at the Post Office. I would suggest that, coming from RB, this is double-speak (one of his 'tells') to let us know that he had developed a system whereby he was able to both change his name AND hang on to the old passport intact.

That isn't actually true what he says about the post office cutting up the old passport. An artist friend I know has numerous old passports from people they don't know to use as a base for projects - it is very common amongst artists to use ephemera like this in their work. All completely legal and above board.

And then there is this for crooks:Passports on the dark web: how much is yours worth? - Comparitech

 

[mishy66]

IMO just on point (2) the 3 stories of assaults and losing money/ possessions and the JAL contact are all additional features of a narrative that is indicative of the criminal circles (possible OCG connections) he has moved in and not necessarily to do with romance scams.

Absolutely agree.
Not just about scamming women - I think that is fairly obvious with what else has been noted previously here.
SO much more to RB than scamming women and stealing a few house deeds and life savings

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

Yes agree the research was sloppy and a lot of mistakes. I did spend my time listening with comments oh for god sake 3 days??? Get your facts correct!

Agree. But facts are slippery in this case and Australia is hard for US minds to fathom. The value of the podcast is a quick retelling without tangents. At the end they present a plausible circumstantial case. IMO the more podcasts the merrier and spread the story!