Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #14

[KiwiNZ]

I think a good clue, not set in concrete of course, but the tall man seen in the car with Marion. We heard that the man in the car was taking Marion out before she went overseas. So, why was he sitting in the passenger seat if he's taking her out? That's something that's never made sense. Now we know RB is virtually always in the passenger seat, jumping off buses, trams, etc, and getting in the passenger seat ....

great thinking Puzzle , I hadn't joined those dots in my head, so obvious now that you say it !!

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

That isn't actually true what he says about the post office cutting up the old passport. An artist friend I know has numerous old passports from people they don't know to use as a base for projects - it is very common amongst artists to use ephemera like this in their work. All completely legal and above board.

And then there is this for crooks:Passports on the dark web: how much is yours worth? - Comparitech

I have a vague memory of the corner being snipped once when I got a passport renewal

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

I was thinking did she claim her MB passport was lost when she applied for a new FB one, therefore she had her old passport which would be no good for flying but could still be used as identification, then she would have had enough ID to hire a car.

Although if I remember correctly the police couldn't even find a current DL in MB's name, which I don't believe is correct, I don't think Marion would drive a car unlicensed, and if they couldn't find that what's the chance they missed a Florabella one. They missed RB's Remakel one that was still valid in 1997, which astounds me.

I don’t see why her old passport would have to be handed in or even at the interview to lodge passport. If it was a renewal yes it would’ve.

but it was a ‘new’ passport first one in that name so it’s like starting from scratch.

I would say she still had her MB passport

 

[ruby925]

I don’t see why her old passport would have to be handed in or even at the interview to lodge passport. If it was a renewal yes it would’ve.

but it was a ‘new’ passport first one in that name so it’s like starting from scratch.

I would say she still had her MB passport

MB may have had her old MB passport, with all pages cancelled. I can't think of any reason you would be allowed to hold two valid Australian passports in different names. She may have also carried her name change paperwork with her.

 

[BonnieB]

I don’t see why her old passport would have to be handed in or even at the interview to lodge passport. If it was a renewal yes it would’ve.

but it was a ‘new’ passport first one in that name so it’s like starting from scratch.

I would say she still had her MB passport

IMO, If she still had her Barter passport the issue of ID to access her Barter bank accounts would probably not have arisen.

 

[ruby925]

IMO, If she still had her Barter passport the issue of ID to access her Barter bank accounts would probably not have arisen.

Good point @BonnieB!

 

[mishy66]

To clarify, the point I was working towards is that RB uses multiple simultaneous identities. I hypothesise:

He builds up and scaffolds sufficient documents to utilise different identities for different purposes and he goes by different names and characters in different places.

I don't know what they do in Aus (or other European countries he visits) with replacement passports or issuing 'change of name' passports - maybe some forum members can illuminate?

Speaking as to the UK, currently, when one's passport expires and a new one issued, the top corner cover is clipped off by the Passport Office. I assume, here in UK, same process for an alteration of name.

However, RB, both changes and amends his name -and- states he has lost the previous issued passports. By doing so, he is able to simultaneously hold multiple passports, all valid, insofar as they have not expired, all his photo (not doctored) but in different names.

We need to look here at what FRAUDS - CONS - SCAMS - IDENTITY THEFT can be perpetrated by holding a passport, drivers licence, bank cards. We know he steals people's documents, paperwork, and wallets.

How do we know he doesn't have multiple simultaneous and valid passports and identities in other European countries?

JMO MOO

Oh yes I see what you are saying now. It wasn't clear on your previous post.

 

[mishy66]

I was thinking did she claim her MB passport was lost when she applied for a new FB one, therefore she had her old passport which would be no good for flying but could still be used as identification, then she would have had enough ID to hire a car.

Although if I remember correctly the police couldn't even find a current DL in MB's name, which I don't believe is correct, I don't think Marion would drive a car unlicensed, and if they couldn't find that what's the chance they missed a Florabella one. They missed RB's Remakel one that was still valid in 1997, which astounds me.

Yes the police have a LOT to answer for that is for sure.

 

[mishy66]

I have a vague memory of the corner being snipped once when I got a passport renewal

Yes sometimes that happens or they punch a hole in the cover but most times back then and much earlier, there was no defacing of old passports, apart from cancellation stamps throughout, in fact it was mostly suggested you keep it as a memory as they were filled with stamps from all your comings and goings from airline, train trips, cruises and everything in between. Not so much today with the new biosecurity measures although you can request a souvenir stamp in some countries. It wasn't the world of cyber fraud as we know it to be now, back then.

 

[gymtonic]

I was trying to remember how we did overseas ATM in the 90s. Thanks for the memory! It wasnt with an ATM card, it was with a credit card and pin. Difference was, it was my usual credit card but I had to have my bank assign a pin for European ID purposes. Marion's Barclay credit card OR credit card with the right network symbol on the back (these had to match atm) should have worked. Unless there was an ATM limit, which there usually is. Withdrawing more might have been the issue. But wasnt it clear she hadnt withdrawn anything? Did she forget the right credit card?

If she had gone with some foreign currency cash to tide her over for small purchases and paid by credit card for other purchases, maybe she wasn’t in UK long enough to need to withdraw more cash? But then again surely her credit card record would have had purchases on it which would allow LE to now trace some movement? That hasn’t been mentioned so you would think if it existed it would have been in the brief of evidence presented at inquest.

 

[gymtonic]

Yes sometimes that happens or they punch a hole in the cover but most times back then and much earlier, there was no defacing of old passports, apart from cancellation stamps throughout, in fact it was mostly suggested you keep it as a memory as they were filled with stamps from all your comings and goings from airline, train trips, cruises and everything in between. Not so much today with the new biosecurity measures although you can request a souvenir stamp in some countries. It wasn't the world of cyber fraud as we know it to be now, back then.

I have every old passport (UK and Oz) dating back to a 1975 one cancelled in 1982 and all have the corner cut off and returned to me.

 

[KiwiNZ]

I have a vague memory of the corner being snipped once when I got a passport renewal

they cant snip what you claim to have lost - if lost they cancel it so you can fly on it but it is still perfectly good to use as ID

If I remember correctly RB did the same and claimed to have lost a passport at some stage when applying for a new name ( cant remember the exact situation sorry )

 

[mishy66]

If she had gone with some foreign currency cash to tide her over for small purchases and paid by credit card for other purchases, maybe she wasn’t in UK long enough to need to withdraw more cash? But then again surely her credit card record would have had purchases on it which would allow LE to now trace some movement? That hasn’t been mentioned so you would think if it existed it would have been in the brief of evidence presented at inquest.

She did say in one of her postcards "It's sad because I can’t possibly buy one more thing. Talk about shop till you drop."


I don't know .
All so confusing! Marion where are you!!

 

[MrsWattle]

Double

 

[MrsWattle]

Did it go unnoticed? It's not unlawful to change ones name every year. So effectively no one could care.

As RB repeatedly stated at the Inquest when asked - 'because it is legal to do so'.

I'm going to suggest that from now on, there should be stringent policies on people changing their names which make things a lot more difficult for people like RB to do exactly what he just did.

OF NOTE: At the Inquest, RB was a great pains to explain how one's old passport is 'chopped in half' at the Post Office. I would suggest that, coming from RB, this is double-speak (one of his 'tells') to let us know that he had developed a system whereby he was able to both change his name AND hang on to the old passport intact.

IMO It's possible RB was taking a fake passport with false documents to the local Australian post office to get chopped, relying on his old tricks of the forgery trade, I believe there was a worldwide false passport and "stolen" travellers cheques racquet happening back in the years he travelled especially in Thailand and Amsterdam the "drug smugglers route" With travel insurance and travellers cheques. Unscrupulous travellers could sell their cheques for half the value, and then go to police station to report them stolen. Once a report was made the bank would issue more. Passports were worth 10k on the blackmarket. Do I think Amsterdam airport is the hub of this trade in the 70's 80's 90's Absolutely! Do I think RB was somehow genuinely mugged, No!
ALL MOO

 

[gymtonic]

Interestingly I have just been listening to another podcast from "The Prosecutors" series: Episode 126 The Riddle of Lori Ruff. The second half of the episode is fascinating as it talks about a book published in America in 1971 by Eden Press called "The Paper Trip". It was basically a manual for how to create a new identity! I'm not suggesting that WW read it, and of course it focuses on how to change identity in America. But what stood out to me is how someone could get hold of a copy of a birth certificate (of someone who had died) then apply for an id in that name across state lines, then use that to get a new identity.
I'm amazed there's a book with loopholes and tips on how to do this (and it's still published today)!

I was reading an extended news article about Lori Ruff a while ago and it was as you said fascinating and great insight as to how identity theft occurs in stages until the original stolen identity is so far removed from the end identity, it is hard to follow the links. She remained unidentified for 6 or 7 years after her death because of the extended trail, but had stolen identities way before that (decades from memory?). Based on my reading of the Ruff case, I think I pondered on this forum about whether MB (under AKA's guidance) had changed ID again which could lead to a difficult trail to follow? I was linking it to MB rather than AKA. AKA by his own admission in inquest revealed that he was introduced to a forger back in the 1960s in Belgium so he was probably like an "apprentice" to a Master Forger!

 

[mishy66]

I was linking it to MB rather than AKA. AKA by his own admission in inquest revealed that he was introduced to a forger back in the 1960s in Belgium so he was probably like an "apprentice" to a Master Forger!

Like his father maybe....JMO

 

[gymtonic]

Also it's not unheard of for there to be postal strikes here in England...I wonder if there was one around that time in Sussex/Kent... I'll do some googling.
I guess ultimately the discrepancy between the postmark and the date she allegedly arrived back in Australia doesn't persuade me that someone else traveled on her passport.

I thought it was more than one postcard or piece of correspondence that was postmarked after her supposed return date? (which would be harder to explain away and the reason I keep going back to it) That's what I had in my notes. Anyone else corroborate that? I have:

7 August 1997: Postcard postmarked this date of Strand Gate Winchelsea postmarked Tonbridge. This postcard mentions that “she met a Dutch dentist and a lady called Maz”.

30 August 1997: Last postcard from MB dated on this day. Initial suggestion that it was left for someone else to post because of passport arrival back, but if it wasn’t MB who came back then she could have still been sending postcards.
Inquest confirms that postcards were dated after passport returned.

 

[gymtonic]

That bashing in the Pacific Fair car park, looks like he needed to hide something from his wife. She must have known about that particular amount of money

I still don't know who much money it was ? 50K Aus (?) I got totally lost with his conversions lol, why travel to Pacific Fair to exchange the money the was the same company with branches closer to his home.

If and I am saying a big IF, the money was the proceeds of money laundering and he was delivering it from one country to another and one person to another....??
This has been my pondering for a while for all the multiple visits and retuning with money (from coupons LOL). IMO MOO

 

[mishy66]

I thought it was more than one postcard or piece of correspondence that was postmarked after her supposed return date? (which would be harder to explain away and the reason I keep going back to it) That's what I had in my notes. Anyone else corroborate that? I have:

7 August 1997: Postcard postmarked this date of Strand Gate Winchelsea postmarked Tonbridge. This postcard mentions that “she met a Dutch dentist and a lady called Maz”.

30 August 1997: Last postcard from MB dated on this day. Initial suggestion that it was left for someone else to post because of passport arrival back, but if it wasn’t MB who came back then she could have still been sending postcards.
Inquest confirms that postcards were dated after passport returned.

Yes I have the same - 7th and 30th August -
August 1997 -

• Postcards arrive in Australia from Marion in England. 7 August and 30 August
  

It was from an much earlier inquest something with the Salvos I think? Or a family member. Sorry I cant remember uggh!