Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #14

[mishy66]

I found it!

‎The Lady Vanishes: 4. Taken on Apple Podcasts

This is a really interesting episode as it talks about the postcards, the car repayments in regard to Sally and the fiasco about the bank sighting of Marion, the bank security guard and the Salvos discrepancy.

 

[KiwiNZ]

Yes I have the same - 7th and 30th August -
August 1997 -

• Postcards arrive in Australia from Marion in England. 7 August and 30 August

It was from an much earlier inquest something with the Salvos I think? Or a family member. Sorry I cant remember uggh!

Good point, I had forgot about this ..I think the 30th of August is the one that a sister presented at the first inquest that Sally knew nothing about, below is from TLV on the 28 June 2021

**Update: Sally will continue to give evidence when the inquest resumes on Wednesday. We also heard from Lisa Telford from the Australian Border Force about the procedures in place for people coming in and out of the country so there could be some idea of how likely it was Marion who came back. And a postcard emerges from Marion’s sister Deirdre, dated after Marion’s passport returned to Australia on 2 August, 1997, and posted from the UK which references her meeting a dentist and a lady named Mazz.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

There's no solid proof putting them together in the UK. Many people visit the same places, though usually the places that tourists go to.

Sure, but there's no solid proof putting them together in Australia either. No one's ever positively identified them together, anywhere

I didn't say there was

Sally and her husband did, from afar in the parking lot of McD's. I'm happy to accept that as 'proof' as it fits completely.

I think a good clue, not set in concrete of course, but the tall man seen in the car with Marion. We heard that the man in the car was taking Marion out before she went overseas. So, why was he sitting in the passenger seat if he's taking her out? That's something that's never made sense. Now we know RB is virtually always in the passenger seat, jumping off buses, trams, etc, and getting in the passenger seat ....

Apologies if my brief post confused anyone.

This is why I typically write long 'explanatory' posts to try to include everyone and so the context can't be misunderstood. I understand there are people here from different backgrounds and neurodiversity (myself included)... some are quick and experienced at connecting abstract dots, and others prefer a detailed narrative of exactly what you're trying to say. Neither is better than the other, just different information processing pathways.

So here we go... Sally said she couldn't see the man's face as it was far and dark. It is unclear if she meant the inside of the car was dark, or the man's face was dark. She thought he looked Mediterranean but it was possible he could've been Algerian. We're not sure if that meant nationality-wise or skin tone. She didn't, at any moment, identify RB as the man in the car. Of course, I personally believe the arts centre man is RB, but unfortunately opinions are not 'fact' or 'proof', and Tootsie suggested 'solid proof ' was necessary to link them in the UK, which is a fair point.

I was just trying to say that if we discount the UK evidence due to lack of 'solid proof', we'd need to discount the Aus evidence too, because they are both relying on circumstantial evidence - "pointing indirectly towards someone's guilt but not conclusively proving it."

Whereas 'solid proof', as Tootsie suggested, typically requires being ID'd by a reliable witness, caught on CCTV, having a digital trail of two people being at the same place at the same time, DNA, etc. The problem with having 'solid proof' is that it tends to be digital, and in Marion's case, the world wasn't fully digital yet.

That's all I meant... the realisation that there's no 'solid proof' of them being together in the UK or in Aus, and that sincerely made me put this face on in real life Yet I posted straight after, that I DO think there's LOADS of circumstantial evidence to make a reasonable inferrence.

 

[mishy66]

Good point, I had forgot about this ..I think the 30th of August is the one that a sister presented at the first inquest that Sally knew nothing about, below is from TLV on the 28 June 2021

**Update: Sally will continue to give evidence when the inquest resumes on Wednesday. We also heard from Lisa Telford from the Australian Border Force about the procedures in place for people coming in and out of the country so there could be some idea of how likely it was Marion who came back. And a postcard emerges from Marion’s sister Deirdre, dated after Marion’s passport returned to Australia on 2 August, 1997, and posted from the UK which references her meeting a dentist and a lady named Mazz.

Yes the 7th August postcard referencing the dentist and Mazz
Then another one after that:
‎The Lady Vanishes: 4. Taken on Apple Podcasts
The last postcard was postmarked 30 August 1997 Tunbridge UK -

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

IMO, If she still had her Barter passport the issue of ID to access her Barter bank accounts would probably not have arisen.

Agree but she may not have taken it with her that’s what I’m getting at. Perhaps stored …. In some boxes

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

Agree. But facts are slippery in this case and Australia is hard for US minds to fathom. The value of the podcast is a quick retelling without tangents. At the end they present a plausible circumstantial case. IMO the more podcasts the merrier and spread the story!

Agree re the end

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

I have every old passport (UK and Oz) dating back to a 1975 one cancelled in 1982 and all have the corner cut off and returned to me.

exactly a corner cut off

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

they cant snip what you claim to have lost - if lost they cancel it so you can fly on it but it is still perfectly good to use as ID

If I remember correctly RB did the same and claimed to have lost a passport at some stage when applying for a new name ( cant remember the exact situation sorry )

I was talking about RB and lost passport. I was just saying his theory of they cut it up… it’s not cut up the corner is snipped.
Yes I remember him doing that too.. it was at the Australian embassy in Belgium I think but also can’t remember what name it was under. I think it’s in NAA files

 

[Meligator]

I think a good clue, not set in concrete of course, but the tall man seen in the car with Marion. We heard that the man in the car was taking Marion out before she went overseas. So, why was he sitting in the passenger seat if he's taking her out? That's something that's never made sense. Now we know RB is virtually always in the passenger seat, jumping off buses, trams, etc, and getting in the passenger seat ....

Right. Most people have a car and would likely have been driving. Very RB to be riding shotgun

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Yay! New podcast episode out by the end of this week

I too wish more true crime podcasts an youtubers would cover the case, such as Kendall, Danelle and Harlowe. <modsnip: That individual is not an approved source at WS>

 

[KateM]

There's no solid proof putting them together in the UK.
Many people visit the same places, though usually the places that tourists go to.

Having travelled to England and Europe and lived in the UK, most travellers go to London first and use it as a base. Not many people would go directly to Tunbridge Wells. I still think that RB was with her, or met up with her at Tunbridge Wells.

 

[Nnbee]

I know this is off topic , but I am just curious. Why does it take until November for the coroner to make their decision?
Is it because of the back log of cases? The paperwork that needs to be done behind the scene?
Just seems like a really long time and I was curious if this was normal?

 

[Deleted member 249471]

I know this is off topic , but I am just curious. Why does it take until November for the coroner to make their decision?
Is it because of the back log of cases? The paperwork that needs to be done behind the scene?
Just seems like a really long time and I was curious if this was normal?

There are still several steps pending between now and the findings being released:

Schedule of dates to allow for the exchange of written submissions:
- assisting parties submit written submissions by Fri 1 July
- interested parties submit written submissions by Fri 26 Aug
- any parties reply to submissions by Fri 7 Oct
- oral address on Thur 27 - Fri 28 Oct at Coroners Court NSW, Lidcombe
- Coroner will try to have her findings available by 10am, 30 November 2022, posted on Coroners Court NSW- Coronial Findings.

The Coroner only has about 1 month to examine everything and post her findings.
Yes, this is normal. The inquest is just a small part of the Coronial process.

 

[MrsWattle]

The Courier Mail is a Queensland paper. RB mentioned The Gold Coast Bulletin and the Courier Mail. There were also dating agencies on the Gold Coast back in the day. Meeting his potential victims at coffee shops, shows, antiques and coin shows and in the ads from the paper. What an unfaithful husband, serial stalker, pest!

 

[Nnbee]

Thank you @Peralta for explaining! What happens at the Oral Address in October?

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Thank you @Peralta for explaining! What happens at the Oral Address in October?

Not 100% sure but I think it will bring all the lawyers and Coroner together, and it will be an opportunity to ensure everyone is happy, that all their submissions were made, to make any protection orders for the evidence/new info if necessary, and to generally 'wrap it up' and close the inquest so nothing new can be added. An oral address' isn't 'oral evidence', so we shouldn't expect any witnesses to speak. Each lawyer might have the opportunity to summarise their case. The Coroner will make a final statement. I don't know if it will be streamed.

 

[gymtonic]

Yes the 7th August postcard referencing the dentist and Mazz
Then another one after that:
‎The Lady Vanishes: 4. Taken on Apple Podcasts
The last postcard was postmarked 30 August 1997 Tunbridge UK -

OK, so now my original post has been corroborated by more than one sleuth and it looks like (as I thought) there was more than 1 piece of correspondence from MB postmarked prior to August 2, this is why I've been confused as to why people are dismissing more than 1 piece of evidence of MB being in the UK after "the FNMR passport" arrived in Oz. One thing I can understand, but 2 postmarked postcards from different places with different postmarks and date, and a phone call experienced by a close family member on a "locked in" (i.e. referenced to a known event being the Thredbo disaster) date? with the substance of the call that she was phoning from TW at a payphone and with no airport background noise? and an UK sleuth demonstrating the Cathay Pacific flight via Hong Kong would have had to have left UK before the phone call and the postcards?

Weigh that against a passport in a largely unknown (to anyone but AKA and MB) name entering Oz, and a dodgy medicare card use, and bank withdrawals - all in the context of a known forger and impersonator.

I have heard the argument that the postcards could also be planting proof of life in the UK BUT...why would the same person do both? If someone is wanting to make it look like MB arrived back by planting proof of life evidence in Oz would the case not be stronger if there was no conflicting "proof of life" in an other country, at the same time, on the other side of the world? And vice versa...but not both. It's only made it more intriguing and likely to be investigated hasn't it?...completely the opposite of what AKA would have wanted?

That's been my reasoning all along and now taking note of @Peralta 's comment about being more explicit about laying it outing in more detail. I thought I had posted something like this way back when someone posted "which camp are you in? MB returned or not?".

 

[gymtonic]

For those keeping timelines, I noticed inquest has slightly different dates as to Marion's name change and passport application:

13 May 1997 (inquest says 15 May)
Name change via deed poll to FNMR, with the Public Trustee in Brisbane

16 May (inquest says 20 May)
Passport application with new name witnessed by dentist RJW.

Is that the difference in dates between the forms being signed and them being processed do you think? @Peralta I wondered about that.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

OK, so now my original post has been corroborated by more than one sleuth and it looks like (as I thought) there was more than 1 piece of correspondence from MB postmarked prior to August 2, this is why I've been confused as to why people are dismissing more than 1 piece of evidence of MB being in the UK after "the FNMR passport" arrived in Oz. One thing I can understand, but 2 postmarked postcards from different places with different postmarks and date, and a phone call experienced by a close family member on a "locked in" (i.e. referenced to a known event being the Thredbo disaster) date? with the substance of the call that she was phoning from TW at a payphone and with no airport background noise? and an UK sleuth demonstrating the Cathay Pacific flight via Hong Kong would have had to have left UK before the phone call and the postcards?

Weigh that against a passport in a largely unknown (to anyone but AKA and MB) name entering Oz, and a dodgy medicare card use, and bank withdrawals - all in the context of a known forger and impersonator.

I have heard the argument that the postcards could also be planting proof of life in the UK BUT...why would the same person do both? If someone is wanting to make it look like MB arrived back by planting proof of life evidence in Oz would the case not be stronger if there was no conflicting "proof of life" in an other country, at the same time, on the other side of the world? And vice versa...but not both. It's only made it more intriguing and likely to be investigated hasn't it?...completely the opposite of what AKA would have wanted?

That's been my reasoning all along and now taking note of @Peralta 's comment about being more explicit about laying it outing in more detail. I thought I had posted something like this way back when someone posted "which camp are you in? MB returned or not?".

You have a point! I'm still trying to make sense of it. These are all the scenarios I can think of:

1. Marion stayed in UK and wrote postcards until she perished. Yet someone made it look as though she returned to Aus by using her passport, medicare and RACQ in order to make it look as though she withdrew her own money.

2. Marion returned to Aus. Yet someone made it look as though she stayed in UK by mailing postcards. This is counterproductive to a thief stealing her money in Aus as it points to fraud.

3. Marion retuned to Aus, genuinely used her passport, medicare and RACQ but the postcards were delayed. She either
- willingly withdrew her own money
- was coaxed to withdraw her money
- someone else withdrew her money
then perished.

My brain is short circuiting.

I think this means it is very UNLIKELY the postcards were planted by someone else. Marion would've posted them at the date indicated OR they were delayed. IMO.

 

[gymtonic]

There are still several steps pending between now and the findings being released:

Schedule of dates to allow for the exchange of written submissions:
- assisting parties submit written submissions by Fri 1 July
- interested parties submit written submissions by Fri 26 Aug
- any parties reply to submissions by Fri 7 Oct
- oral address on Thur 27 - Fri 28 Oct at Coroners Court NSW, Lidcombe
- Coroner will try to have her findings available by 10am, 30 November 2022, posted on Coroners Court NSW- Coronial Findings.

The Coroner only has about 1 month to examine everything and post her findings.
Yes, this is normal. The inquest is just a small part of the Coronial process.

I've said it before @Peralta, but I love your attention to detail!