Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #14

[gymtonic]

The Courier Mail is a Queensland paper. RB mentioned The Gold Coast Bulletin and the Courier Mail. There were also dating agencies on the Gold Coast back in the day. Meeting his potential victims at coffee shops, shows, antiques and coin shows and in the ads from the paper. What an unfaithful husband, serial stalker, pest!

....and as I am pretty sure has been mentioned...RSVP online dating started in 1997. I would be surprised if AKA didn't get involved in that at some point, especially as he has said (slip of the tongue?) "there are hundreds of them (women) out there on the internet doing this"....this sounded very strongly to me like a reference to online dating/ matching rather than newspaper classifieds.

 

[KateM]

IMO just on point (2) the 3 stories of assaults and losing money/ possessions and the JAL contact are all additional features of a narrative that is indicative of the criminal circles (possible OCG connections) he has moved in and not necessarily to do with romance scams.

What an unlucky bloke, to have been robbed and beaten up on 3 occasions!

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

You have a point! I'm still trying to make sense of it. These are all the scenarios I can think of:

1. Marion stayed in UK and wrote postcards until she perished. Yet someone made it look as though she returned to Aus by using her passport, medicare and RACQ in order to make it look as though she withdrew her own money.

2. Marion returned to Aus. Yet someone made it look as though she stayed in UK by mailing postcards. This is counterproductive to a thief stealing her money in Aus as it points to fraud.

3. Marion retuned to Aus, genuinely used her passport, medicare and RACQ but the postcards were delayed. She either
- willingly withdrew her own money
- was coaxed to withdraw her money
- someone else withdrew her money
then perished.

Edit: there's still one more option.

Gosh when I read this Peralta all of these are possible…

 

[gymtonic]

You have a point! (give me a minute, I'm still trying to figure this out)

Yes, IMO:

• AKA planned the same MO with MB as with JO (slight differences with what docs or financial gain methods) but with the same intention of future promises and meeting up in EU.
• Advantage for AKA being MB had planted the seeds with family that she was going to UK for an extended time, wouldn't be in touch all the time, and wouldn't be expected back (so not just a short holiday like JO).
• AKA travels separately and meets MB and gets hold of docs/ Info on passport, then pulls the same story of an emergency that requires separating and him coming back to Oz.
• No one is expecting MB to come back within a short time frame, so "selling on" the passport details for another scam doesn't raise any red flags at the time (because no one is expecting MB to come back soon) and the passport can be matched to an outgoing passport. By the time MB is expected back and maybe gets challenged at Immigration, the financial scam is over and distance has been put between MB and AKA.
• MB is writing postcards but that is not a problem for AKA (again in hindsight when it is investigated), but the thing beyond AKA's control is the phone call....can't plan for a disaster and SL being skiing and thus MB making an unexpected call that can be date fixed.
• The rest is more sketchy ....So MB is in UK oblivious to the fact that bank account is being drained?AKA is in Oz and does not expect suspicions to be raised? Medicare are proof of life planted as insurance policy? (not sure there of the logic).
• Still not sure of the who, how, what of MB's disappearance but I keep coming back to the fact that if it hadn't been for SL's persistence the tyranny of time and distance worked for a long time.

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

....and as I am pretty sure has been mentioned...RSVP online dating started in 1997. I would be surprised if AKA didn't get involved in that at some point, especially as he has said (slip of the tongue?) "there are hundreds of them (women) out there on the internet doing this"....this sounded very strongly to me like a reference to online dating/ matching rather than newspaper classifieds.

Yes I wondered when he said that if he was ‘swiping ‘ although this practice is really common now not so much in 97. I doubt he’d pay anything to join something like RSVP he doesn’t like to spend his own money

 

[KateM]

First time poster, LONG time fan of everyone’s research. You are all such an impressive and dedicated bunch.

1. I’m struggling to remember if travelers cheques have ever been discussed here in relation to this case. My family travelled quite a lot to the UK in the late 90s/early 2000s and we always used travellers cheques (in addition to any cash, and cards with the Cirrus/Maestro symbol at ATMs). I wonder if travellers cheques had our full names on them or just initials? I can’t remember …

2. I once had to go to the passport office for an emergency last minute passport. They took my 2 most recent passports and cut a slice off the side of the covers, so it was no longer able to look like a normal functioning passport, but the majority of the passport remained intact.

3. Is there any proof (other than her own words) that Marion actually hired a car? In that era, Australians were eligible for an amazing thing called a Brit Rail pass. It was a prepaid thing that had to be purchased in Australia. It enabled us to travel on any train line in the UK without having to book in advance or pay anything extra. You just paid for a certain number of days, like it was maybe $500 AUD for 4 or 6 days of travel which, once you factored in the possible length of a train trip, need to change lines, price markups for certain timing and seasons and the general over expense of British rail services was an amazingly good deal. Often conductors didn’t really understand how they worked and wouldn’t tick them off so I ended up with loads of days of free travel and could even leave them behind with UK friends to use if there were days left. Technically they required the use or an Australian passport to make them valid but again, no one ever checked.

i used this pass to travel to many of the same places Marion did! Alfriston, Tonbridge and so on. Even tiny towns are well serviced by the rail system or were back then.

4. My partner recently hired cars in the USA with a different name on passport and drivers license. We were told that as both had photos on them, and were clearly of the same person, it would be fine as names often change after marriage etc and not all documents instantly catch up.

all of the just are just thoughts and observations of a mostly random nature - just trying to fill in some details about Aussies abroad and the experiences of that time.

I thought it was a bit odd that Marion applied for an international drivers licence, as the rail system and buses are fantastic in the UK, and most travellers wouldn't bother, unless they were going to hire a van and drive around Europe.

 

[gymtonic]

You have a point! I'm still trying to make sense of it. These are all the scenarios I can think of:

1. Marion stayed in UK and wrote postcards until she perished. Yet someone made it look as though she returned to Aus by using her passport, medicare and RACQ in order to make it look as though she withdrew her own money.

2. Marion returned to Aus. Yet someone made it look as though she stayed in UK by mailing postcards. This is counterproductive to a thief stealing her money in Aus as it points to fraud.

3. Marion retuned to Aus, genuinely used her passport, medicare and RACQ but the postcards were delayed. She either
- willingly withdrew her own money
- was coaxed to withdraw her money
- someone else withdrew her money
then perished.

My brain is short circuiting.

I think this means it is very UNLIKELY the postcards were planted by someone else. Marion would've posted them at the date indicated OR they were delayed. IMO.

...but what about the phone call in conjunction with the postcards? for me this puts 3 out of the picture. [it looks as though our last 3 posts have crossed over during extended editing]

 

[gymtonic]

Yes I wondered when he said that if he was ‘swiping ‘ although this practice is really common now not so much in 97. I doubt he’d pay anything to join something like RSVP he doesn’t like to spend his own money

Except he does spend some money to set up a scam....JO said he paid for things?

 

[TootsieFootsie]

NSW coroners overworked, under-resourced

The NSW coroner's court does not have the resources to keep up with its workload and should be restructured, an upper house committee inquiry has found.
A growing backlog of cases and delays in finalising others was also causing further grief for the families and friends of those whose deaths were subject to coronial inquiry.

I know this is off topic , but I am just curious. Why does it take until November for the coroner to make their decision?
Is it because of the back log of cases? The paperwork that needs to be done behind the scene?
Just seems like a really long time and I was curious if this was normal?

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Not only less common but "swiping" didn't exist at all in 1997.
RSVP was very popular, right from it's beginning.

Yes I wondered when he said that if he was ‘swiping ‘ although this practice is really common now not so much in 97. I doubt he’d pay anything to join something like RSVP he doesn’t like to spend his own money

 

[KateM]

Regarding Marion hiring a car.

It's doubtful she'd have been able to hire one in the UK if her Passport + Drivers Licence + Bank Card did not all match in terms of name.

I believe she did hire a car as her postcard descriptions of being brave to drive and also (IIRC) needing to put some of her stuff in storage instead of trying to fit in a small car seem authentic.

However, I wonder, is THIS when maybe RB was together with her? Did he hire the car in his name and they took turns to drive it? Or she drove? Did he encourage her to store her belongings instead of stuffing them in the small car?

At the point of needing / wanting to hire a car would be a great time for him to scope out her documents and card all together and even perhaps dispossess her of them.

This sounds like a more believable theory IMO. I don't believe that she would have hired a car and driven on her own. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the public transport system is so excellent in the UK, you wouldn't need to. I think that RB was with her and he probably hired the car in his name. I think he wanted to take her to some places that he had visited before, maybe a bit off the beaten track, that was easier travelling in a car.

 

[Nnbee]

Thank you again @Peralta for clearing that up. I hope it will be streamed!

I wouldn't be surprised if she didn't return now. I also think it is possible AKA told Marion not to contact her family blah blah and she told him she wouldn't. He probably had no idea she was sending postcards so didn't think he would have to match dates with the flight times of whomever used her passport.

On her arrival card back in to Aus, I think the handwriting analysis said it was likely her handwriting. Was the date the same hand writing? That is the only thing I would consider if it wasn't her travelling on the FNMR passport back to Australia. That being said he seems to be a good manipulator so he COULD have said they are flying back for a few days fill this out, then " oh no I got bashed we are staying " but he already has her pre filled out form.


Marion could of asked reception of hotel to post her postcards. That was common back in the 90s. Is it possible Hong Kong airport had silent phone booths in the airport back in the day? I think another member had previously confirmed that the airport was not a silent airport back then and boarding announcements were made. Perhaps they had a phone room? They have smokers rooms, prayer rooms etc, maybe? Just trying to think of possibilities.

 

[mishy66]

OK, so now my original post has been corroborated by more than one sleuth and it looks like (as I thought) there was more than 1 piece of correspondence from MB postmarked prior to August 2, this is why I've been confused as to why people are dismissing more than 1 piece of evidence of MB being in the UK after "the FNMR passport" arrived in Oz. One thing I can understand, but 2 postmarked postcards from different places with different postmarks and date, and a phone call experienced by a close family member on a "locked in" (i.e. referenced to a known event being the Thredbo disaster) date? with the substance of the call that she was phoning from TW at a payphone and with no airport background noise? and an UK sleuth demonstrating the Cathay Pacific flight via Hong Kong would have had to have left UK before the phone call and the postcards?

Weigh that against a passport in a largely unknown (to anyone but AKA and MB) name entering Oz, and a dodgy medicare card use, and bank withdrawals - all in the context of a known forger and impersonator.

I have heard the argument that the postcards could also be planting proof of life in the UK BUT...why would the same person do both? If someone is wanting to make it look like MB arrived back by planting proof of life evidence in Oz would the case not be stronger if there was no conflicting "proof of life" in an other country, at the same time, on the other side of the world? And vice versa...but not both. It's only made it more intriguing and likely to be investigated hasn't it?...completely the opposite of what AKA would have wanted?

That's been my reasoning all along and now taking note of @Peralta 's comment about being more explicit about laying it outing in more detail. I thought I had posted something like this way back when someone posted "which camp are you in? MB returned or not?".

"I have heard the argument that the postcards could also be planting proof of life in the UK BUT...why would the same person do both? If someone is wanting to make it look like MB arrived back by planting proof of life evidence in Oz would the case not be stronger if there was no conflicting "proof of life" in an other country, at the same time, on the other side of the world? And vice versa...but not both."


This is why I think it was planned by him to have that card come back into Australia. He had no idea Marion was dropping breadcrumbs back in the UK long after her card arrived here. Her merrily travelling around sending postcards sporadically home unaware that her stolen passport and passenger card were coming into Australia. Maybe she realised her passport was missing when she was about to head to her next destination - Amsterdam and contacted him and he made the same suggestion he made to JO, go see ' my agent'.

In any case he needed identification back here in Australia to withdraw her money and he had it. He also had an accomplice. IF he DID resell her passport to someone wanting to come into Aust - illegal immigrant - could he also not have met up with them at the hotel to retrieve that passport for the purpose of ID at the bank - he just needed a female willing to do so.........

 

[Nnbee]

At this point, it's obvious he has involvement in her disappearance. And at the very least enough illegal activity for jail time with his fraud crimes.
You think he'd do the right thing by his family and confess to save them from involvement or persecution. He has already allowed for his wife DdH to lie on the stand about several things. For the sake of his children, confess. How can a father allow for such long drawn out trial and media attention? Maybe he will keep going until everyone in the country knows his family name.
Even if the family is none the wiser and has zero involvement. It will be difficult moving forward for them if he continues with this garbage. It will just get worse and worse. More crimes will come to surface.

What a life to leave for your children! So gross. What a flog.

 

[Nnbee]

I think a "bill" counts for ID points too right? Could the eye appointment been done purely to get them to send an invoice or receipt to his address for ID points?

 

[KateM]

OK, so now my original post has been corroborated by more than one sleuth and it looks like (as I thought) there was more than 1 piece of correspondence from MB postmarked prior to August 2, this is why I've been confused as to why people are dismissing more than 1 piece of evidence of MB being in the UK after "the FNMR passport" arrived in Oz. One thing I can understand, but 2 postmarked postcards from different places with different postmarks and date, and a phone call experienced by a close family member on a "locked in" (i.e. referenced to a known event being the Thredbo disaster) date? with the substance of the call that she was phoning from TW at a payphone and with no airport background noise? and an UK sleuth demonstrating the Cathay Pacific flight via Hong Kong would have had to have left UK before the phone call and the postcards?

Weigh that against a passport in a largely unknown (to anyone but AKA and MB) name entering Oz, and a dodgy medicare card use, and bank withdrawals - all in the context of a known forger and impersonator.

I have heard the argument that the postcards could also be planting proof of life in the UK BUT...why would the same person do both? If someone is wanting to make it look like MB arrived back by planting proof of life evidence in Oz would the case not be stronger if there was no conflicting "proof of life" in an other country, at the same time, on the other side of the world? And vice versa...but not both. It's only made it more intriguing and likely to be investigated hasn't it?...completely the opposite of what AKA would have wanted?

That's been my reasoning all along and now taking note of @Peralta 's comment about being more explicit about laying it outing in more detail. I thought I had posted something like this way back when someone posted "which camp are you in? MB returned or not?".

If he was the one doing the withdrawals from MB's bank account, how do you think that he managed it, when the account was in the name of Marion Barter?

 

[KateM]

"I have heard the argument that the postcards could also be planting proof of life in the UK BUT...why would the same person do both? If someone is wanting to make it look like MB arrived back by planting proof of life evidence in Oz would the case not be stronger if there was no conflicting "proof of life" in an other country, at the same time, on the other side of the world? And vice versa...but not both."


This is why I think it was planned by him to have that card come back into Australia. He had no idea Marion was dropping breadcrumbs back in the UK long after her card arrived here. Her merrily travelling around sending postcards sporadically home unaware that her stolen passport and passenger card were coming into Australia. Maybe she realised her passport was missing when she was about to head to her next destination - Amsterdam and contacted him and he made the same suggestion he made to JO, go see ' my agent'.

In any case he needed identification back here in Australia to withdraw her money and he had it. He also had an accomplice. IF he DID resell her passport to someone wanting to come into Aust - illegal immigrant - could he also not have met up with them at the hotel to retrieve that passport for the purpose of ID at the bank - he just needed a female willing to do so.........

I don't believe he would have resold her passport. If MB met her end in the UK and someone travelled to Australia using her passport, it was someone he knew IMO...

 

[MrsWattle]

....and as I am pretty sure has been mentioned...RSVP online dating started in 1997. I would be surprised if AKA didn't get involved in that at some point, especially as he has said (slip of the tongue?) "there are hundreds of them (women) out there on the internet doing this"....this sounded very strongly to me like a reference to online dating/ matching rather than newspaper classifieds.

Yes of course RSVP !
Although I think by Christmas 1996 Marion was already talking about Europe to her family. Is there such thing as a Wayback machine for RSVP archives, . I'd love to know if RB was a computer guy he certainly did slip when he said hundreds of women online.
RSVP - Australia's most trusted dating site

 

[KateM]

Gosh when I read this Peralta all of these are possible…

Do we know if there was some sort of postal strike on at that time, which could have caused the delay in the postcards arriving here?

 

[KateM]

Yes of course RSVP !
Although I think by Christmas 1996 Marion was already talking about Europe to her family. Is there such thing as a Wayback machine for RSVP archives, . I'd love to know if RB was a computer guy he certainly did slip when he said hundreds of women online.
RSVP - Australia's most trusted dating site

I'd say that there's a very good chance that RB would have used RSVP, under an alias of course.