Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #6

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The questions being asked Sally all seem to me, to be about whether "someone" has provided information and they are checking whether the information was public knowledge, ie in The Lady Vanishes etc.
 
agree - I don't think they meet for a 2nd time via an ad place by her .., I don't think they meet in Europe in the 60's

I don't think they meet through his ad either, I think they may have met another way but he was using the FNR name

I think he is a liar
The questions being asked Sally all seem to me, to be about whether "someone" has provided information and they are checking whether the information was public knowledge, ie in The Lady Vanishes etc.

I think RB has weaved "his story" into the podcast and social media information. And now they are trying to unweave it

what is real and what has he made up using public information
 
Convenient that RB says his last ever contact with Marion was the 2nd of August 1997


He said the last time her saw her was approx. 1 weeks after she had moved out / sold her home (25/4/1997), she came to collect her boxes with a man, this was before she left for the UK. He claims he never saw her again. (lies of course)
 
He said the last time her saw her was approx. 1 weeks after she had moved out / sold her home (25/4/1997), she came to collect her boxes with a man, this was before she left for the UK. He claims he never saw her again. (lies of course)

Ah ok, I wrote in my notes that he said he had his final contact with her 2 Aug 1997. Might have written the wrong thing
 
He said the last time her saw her was approx. 1 weeks after she had moved out / sold her home (25/4/1997), she came to collect her boxes with a man, this was before she left for the UK. He claims he never saw her again. (lies of course)

Wow.. That’s a slip of the tongue !
 
Ah ok, I wrote in my notes that he said he had his final contact with her 2 Aug 1997. Might have written the wrong thing

4:11:35 of the recording (Day one) - that is the only place I have heard them reference the last meeting between RB and Marion

I cant find anything about the 2nd of August but please correct me if I am wrong
 
Is someone able to please summarise today's inquest for those of us (me) sadly working? will try to catch up later but would appreciate the important deets!
I would be interested in this too.
 
I have updated a previous timeline with the latest information from the inquest that another poster put together (caitlincurious). I need your help. If you find any errors, please let me know. I am doing it one section at a time so will post the others now too.

Question: Did MB and WW really meet in Switzerland in a hotel lobby? If so, when as the dates given don't match up? How could MB had had this fleeting relationship with WW then if she was married to JW? If she didn't, why would RB state this?

Section one: UPDATED TIMELINE from 1945 to 1971 Johnny Warren era.

October 3, 1945 -
Marion was born in Marrickville

1950ish-
Moved to Brisbane.

1957ish-
Moved to Oyster Bay

Mid 1960s
RB Informed police that in the mid 1960s he was in Switzerland and met Marion Warren in a hotel lobby. They had a fleeting relationship at that time.

Known as Willy W at that time. (Should this be late 60s when MB and JW went overseas?) (see later)

Dec 1967-
Marries Johnny Warren (ep 2)

Monday 25 November 1968
Johnny played his last game for Stockport County Reserves in the Northern Floodlit League (he never managed to play in their 1st team) so what were Marion & Johnny doing in the period before they left the UK?

Tuesday 3 Sept 1968 to Thursday 9 January 1969.
Johnny & Marion’s trip to the UK (Marion visited Amsterdam for the first time on this trip) Marion first met WW in Switzerland in a hotel lobby (while she was married to Socceroo Johnny Warren) and they had a fleeting relationship (So where was Johnny if that is true? Did they simply exchange contact details then as WW was moving to Australia?)

Late 1960s
WW, a Belgian national, moved to Australia and has lived in a number of states throughout Australia since that time

What happened in this period with Johnny and Marion?

1971-
Splits from Johnny Warren, suffers nervous breakdown (according to John Economis)
 
Timeline: 1972 to 1995/6 - up to Second relationship with RB

1972- Began working with Janice White

1972- Began relationship with Stewart Brown

May 1973- Sally born

Oct 1974- Owen born

1975- Left Stewart, took children to Queensland. Returned to try and rekindle relationship when father-in-law was diagnosed with cancer

1977- Married Stewart Brown

1979- Divorced Stewart Brown, moved to Lapstone

?- Ray Barter moves in, after a few dates, having never met the children.

June 9 1985- Marriage to Ray

1988- Marion, Ray and Sally (Owen?) move to Gerringong

1989- Divorced Ray Barter

Background of RB: Was a photographer and coin dealer. Travelling primarily to Belgium in the 1980s and 1990s.

Mr B proposed to a woman Mrs O. that they travel Europe together and start a life together in 1999; she gave him the title deeds to her house and other personal documents. During the trip she stayed in England while he was in Europe; he called her to say he lost her documents. Back in Australia he returned some of the documents; but in the weeks thereafter the title deeds were stolen from her house. Mr. B. kept some of her jewellery. They had a sexual relationship (according to Mr. B). He says he didn’t have any of her documents; was bashed and robbed in Amsterdam and hospitalised. Denies later taking title deeds. Says he returned all her jewellery

1993- MB Interviewed for position at TSS

?Marion buys house

1994 RB informed police he placed an ad under the Name MFR Purpose: French speaking friend. Historical Qld driving records indicate he obtained a driver's license under FNR well before Marion disappeared Relevant because prior to Marion’s disappearance she changed her surname to Remakel

1994- Commenced work at TSS

1995 or 1996? Mr B. said he had a 2nd relationship with Marion when he answered a personal ad in a newspaper (maybe Gold Coast Bulletin). Answered under the name of Rick. He did not know it was posted by Marion. Met up for a meal, went back to her house in Southport and they spent 3 or 4 nights together.
 
Timeline: Leadup to overseas trip and return

1996- Christmas with parents and Wilson family.

?Marion talks about a melanoma

?Marion had a theft from her car a while before her trip to the UK. Sally remarked the person on CCTV looked like Marion. Medicare card and wallet stolen.

?April 1997 Marion resigns from TSS. RB visited TSS with Marion after she had resigned to collect books.

25 April 1997 House sold. After Marion moved out of her Southport house she asked to store boxes at RB’s house; he agreed; delivered to house in Wollomba near Lismore by removalists

1st May 1997 MB moved in with Leslie L.

One week after boxes delivered to RB, Marion came to collect them with a man in his 50s. Tall, wearing a white hat, blue uniform, gold markings like bar on sleeves. Took him to be a naval officer or pilot. Marion told him that she and this man were going to travel to Europe together to go on the Orient Express. She would live with this man and establish private school in England. Last time he ever saw her.

May 15th 1997 changed name by deed poll to Florabella Natalia Marion Remakes

?Dentist signs paperwork for new passport

?Date of new passport

?Marion is sighted by Sally with a man in a car

17 June 1997 Mr B, according to international movement records – travelled to Japan with his outgoing passenger card saying he intended to spend 30 days in Belgium. (this is probably where MB got the Japanese stationery from)

?Marion stays with Lesley Loveday

?Lesley Loveday drives Marion to bus station

June 23 1997- MB left Australia from Brisbane airport with two suitcases

June 1997 Arrives in Seoul, South Korea

? Marion arrives in London

? Marion hires a car

July 15th 1997 date supposed to travel on Orient Express but decided not to

? Mention of Mazz and the Dutch dentist in postcard (date of postcard?)

31 July 1997 RB returned to Australia using name of “Richard Lloyd Westbury” on his passport following change by Deedpoll.

This parallels with the dates Marion left under Florabella Remakel – she left 5 days before him, returned 2 days after him. He said he never saw Marion returning from wherever she went.

July 31 1997- Marion calls Sally, leaving a message on her answering machine.

July 1997- sent early birthday gift to sister Deirdre, whose birthday was August 7.

August 1 1997- Marion calls Sally from a payphone, indicating that she had postponed her trip on the Orient Express (highly suspicious in my opinion- everyone said that she desperately wanted to do this). Marion specifically says that she won't be in touch much (after having sent postcards/letters to a lot of people).

August 2 1997- Marion’s Passport returns to Australia. Passenger Arrival card states that Marion is married………..

August 2, 1997 RB says no contact after that date. Said he wasn’t aware she was a missing person. Denies he ever received money from her.

August 30, 1997 - postcard sent from Tunbridge England to Marion's family

August/September 1997- daily withdrawals of $5000 from a bank in Byron Bay, with three of those days having withdrawals coming from a bank in Burleigh Heads. (exact dates of these withdrawals?)

September 13 1997- Marion visits Optometrist in Grafton

October 18th 1997 - Son Owen’s birthday but no call was made to him which alerted Sally
 
Timeline: Sally reports MB missing to inquest

October 22 1997- Sally reports to Byron Bay police station, with Senior Constable Graeme Childs lodging an occurrence. A stop was placed on Marions account, with a message for her to contact her daughter as a matter of urgency.

Late Oct 1997- Byron Bay police related to Sally by phone- that he had spoken to Marion, who didn’t want any contact, or anyone to know where she was. No record in police documentation of this.

Late 1997- Jack Wilson, Marion's father, in notes prepared for the Salvation Army, states that he asked the police what identification had been made and they said that the bank security had contacted Marion on the phone and that she didn’t want any contact.

1997- Sally showed photo of Marion to bank teller, who seemed to recognise her and took the photo to the manager. The teller returned, took a copy of the picture and asked Sally what she would like him to say if he saw her.

Feb 12 1998 Betty Brown sends letter to Jack Wilson, confirming that his request for assistance had been received.

March 18 1998- Letter from Salvation Army- to Jack Wilson. Confirming phone call, reiterating that his daughter had been identified withdrawing money at a different bank and that she spoke of starting a new life. Colonial State Bank at Ashmore- 15 October, 1990 (typo?) Marion withdrew the balance of her account. In referenced phone call, Marion had said she was angry with Sally for not putting the money from the car sale into her account, that she didn’t want anything to do with her family.

Mid to late 90s Mrs B. says she placed a Newspaper ad seeking a friend. Fred. De Hep replied (Mr B). She says she attended his house and he was looking for somewhere to say so she offered her garden studio. He offered they go into business together in coin-dealing. She gave him $30 000 for this business; the relationship ended. AVO granted in Nth Sydney 6th January 1999. Mr. Blum said he did not remember her or even offering her a business proposition. Denies stealing coins from her. Doesn’t recollect the AVO; never received a copy. Denies writing a letter to local court saying he assented to the AVO.

Oct 22 1998- Sally marries at TSS- Marion didn’t attend.

July 20 2001- Sally's first child born

March 6, 2002- Son, Owen, dies at 27 years old.

2002- Crimestoppers caller says a woman called Marion who was missing from northern nsw was killed and buried in bushland near Armidale.

April 15 2003- Salvation Army begins new search, instigated by Sally.

July 1 2003- Jack Wilson, Marion's father, dies.

2010- Gary Sheehan investigates in Armidale- SES, dog in Armidale. Followed up at an address in Armidale. Address real, name not- people at the house had no idea.

Feb 7 2006- Salvation Army unable to locate Marion

2007- Marion’s passport expired

2007- Sally contacts AFP missing persons unit. AFP going to use Marion’s case for missing persons week, but NSW police asked them not for investigative reasons.

July 6 2007- Sally had NSW police unit changed to missing from occurrence

July 11 2007- officer in NSW missing person unit sent email confirmed that status had been changed.

July 27 2007- NSW inspector to AFP- Marion was spoken with in last month.

August 2007- email to AFP- shows that Marion was not spoken to in the last month.

2009- Gary Sheehan takes on Marion’s case.

2010- Sally makes statement to police- prior to disappearance, Sally called her mother at Lesley’s, but Lesley thought that Marion was staying with Sally. Lesley said that her mother had also comeback very late on night, saying she had locked her keys in the car. (I assume this is after she has sold the house, before she left).

May 15 2011- NSW police inform Chris (Sally’s husband) that Marion had changed her name prior to leaving. Gary Sheehan went to Sally’s house to tell her about the change in name on her passport.

October 2011- Marion noted as “located”

December 2011- Apparently Sally is told that Marion was removed from the missing person- which Sally disputes.

2012- Gary Sheehan has Marion removed from listing as a missing person. (This is confusing)

July 23 2013- Clark Hunter messages on facebook- Natalia is alive but you will never see her again. It was not her intention to disappear, she was forced.

The Lady Vanishes podcasts

January 2022 Inquest
 
Could RB be a murderous conman?

Carole Waugh: how a secret life led her into the path of a murderous conman

Ever since I read about this case, it has appeared to me that MB has been a victim of a love fraud by a murderous conman. I have always predicted that MB was murdered overseas and the conman found a lookalike woman to pose as MB to return to Australia to fleece her bank accounts and claim her possessions.
 
Timeline: Sally reports MB missing to inquest

October 22 1997- Sally reports to Byron Bay police station, with Senior Constable Graeme Childs lodging an occurrence. A stop was placed on Marions account, with a message for her to contact her daughter as a matter of urgency.

Late Oct 1997- Byron Bay police related to Sally by phone- that he had spoken to Marion, who didn’t want any contact, or anyone to know where she was. No record in police documentation of this.

Late 1997- Jack Wilson, Marion's father, in notes prepared for the Salvation Army, states that he asked the police what identification had been made and they said that the bank security had contacted Marion on the phone and that she didn’t want any contact.

1997- Sally showed photo of Marion to bank teller, who seemed to recognise her and took the photo to the manager. The teller returned, took a copy of the picture and asked Sally what she would like him to say if he saw her.

Feb 12 1998 Betty Brown sends letter to Jack Wilson, confirming that his request for assistance had been received.

March 18 1998- Letter from Salvation Army- to Jack Wilson. Confirming phone call, reiterating that his daughter had been identified withdrawing money at a different bank and that she spoke of starting a new life. Colonial State Bank at Ashmore- 15 October, 1990 (typo?) Marion withdrew the balance of her account. In referenced phone call, Marion had said she was angry with Sally for not putting the money from the car sale into her account, that she didn’t want anything to do with her family.

Mid to late 90s Mrs B. says she placed a Newspaper ad seeking a friend. Fred. De Hep replied (Mr B). She says she attended his house and he was looking for somewhere to say so she offered her garden studio. He offered they go into business together in coin-dealing. She gave him $30 000 for this business; the relationship ended. AVO granted in Nth Sydney 6th January 1999. Mr. Blum said he did not remember her or even offering her a business proposition. Denies stealing coins from her. Doesn’t recollect the AVO; never received a copy. Denies writing a letter to local court saying he assented to the AVO.

Oct 22 1998- Sally marries at TSS- Marion didn’t attend.

July 20 2001- Sally's first child born

March 6, 2002- Son, Owen, dies at 27 years old.

2002- Crimestoppers caller says a woman called Marion who was missing from northern nsw was killed and buried in bushland near Armidale.

April 15 2003- Salvation Army begins new search, instigated by Sally.

July 1 2003- Jack Wilson, Marion's father, dies.

2010- Gary Sheehan investigates in Armidale- SES, dog in Armidale. Followed up at an address in Armidale. Address real, name not- people at the house had no idea.

Feb 7 2006- Salvation Army unable to locate Marion

2007- Marion’s passport expired

2007- Sally contacts AFP missing persons unit. AFP going to use Marion’s case for missing persons week, but NSW police asked them not for investigative reasons.

July 6 2007- Sally had NSW police unit changed to missing from occurrence

July 11 2007- officer in NSW missing person unit sent email confirmed that status had been changed.

July 27 2007- NSW inspector to AFP- Marion was spoken with in last month.

August 2007- email to AFP- shows that Marion was not spoken to in the last month.

2009- Gary Sheehan takes on Marion’s case.

2010- Sally makes statement to police- prior to disappearance, Sally called her mother at Lesley’s, but Lesley thought that Marion was staying with Sally. Lesley said that her mother had also comeback very late on night, saying she had locked her keys in the car. (I assume this is after she has sold the house, before she left).

May 15 2011- NSW police inform Chris (Sally’s husband) that Marion had changed her name prior to leaving. Gary Sheehan went to Sally’s house to tell her about the change in name on her passport.

October 2011- Marion noted as “located”

December 2011- Apparently Sally is told that Marion was removed from the missing person- which Sally disputes.

2012- Gary Sheehan has Marion removed from listing as a missing person. (This is confusing)

July 23 2013- Clark Hunter messages on facebook- Natalia is alive but you will never see her again. It was not her intention to disappear, she was forced.

The Lady Vanishes podcasts

January 2022 Inquest

Very many thanks for this Estelle!
 
Could RB be a murderous conman?

Carole Waugh: how a secret life led her into the path of a murderous conman

Ever since I read about this case, it has appeared to me that MB has been a victim of a love fraud by a murderous conman. I have always predicted that MB was murdered overseas and the conman found a lookalike woman to pose as MB to return to Australia to fleece her bank accounts and claim her possessions.

I think Mrs Os account will be very similar to the truth. Just swap the coins to antiques in MBs case. I believe RB is the one who disrupted her mid year and pressured her to leave her job, pressured her to keep secrets from her family, he had something over her or knew how to feed her fears. Maybe even arranged her house to be burgled to scare her into selling it. He’s probably reading all these posts and following the podcast. Which is heartbreaking because that means he has listened to Sally’s plea for information about her mum. Imagine thinking you had gotten away with something for so many years only to be bamboozled by this wonderful thing called the internet.
IMO.
 
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