Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #7

[Estelle]

TIMELINE BIRTH OF PARENTS TO AUSTRALIAN RESIDENT STATUS

1905-12-13 Desire Jean-Pierre Joseph David born Gelinden, Limburg, Belgique

1913-10-17 Maria Coppenolle born Ramegnies-Chin, Hainaut, Belgique

1939-07-09 Willy David Wouters born in Belgium, Tournai to Abel Wouters and Maria Coppenolle

1943-03-17 Desire Jean-Pierre Joseph David dies at Tournai, Belgium while FD was an infant

? Andre Wouters marries? Maria Coppenolle

? FD adopts the family name of his stepfather Willy David Wouters

1945-01-02 Alias "Lauzoney, Roger" birthdate

1946-05-11 Ilona born of Josef Kinczel and Elizabeth Novonty in Budapest, Hungary

1946-05 to 1957-01(?) Ilona residence Antal Janos Octca, 10 Budapest XI, Hungary

1951 Diane De Haverley was born

1957 Ilona arrived in Belgium with parents from Hungary

1957-01 to 1958 Ilona residence Oveuue Beau Se Jour Veele (?)

1958 to 1960 Ilona residence at 155 Chaussea de Wavre Bruxelles 5

1959-64 Claims to have been employed by Gendarmerie Nationale which is the Belgian police force 1959-64

1960 to 1964 Ilona residence 48, Rue Waguberg, IX elles, olce 64 a ea Jour

1965 First criminal conviction with a number of offences recorded between 65 and 69, mostly traffic offences but including some fraud, false documents and issue of cheques without cover. Most offences just resulted in a fine.

1965-04-05 to 1969-10-17 Willy Wouters fraud and other crimes Tournai, Brussles, Charleroi, Leuven, Brugge, Warmer

1969-05-10 alleged marriage date between Ilona Reid and Willy Wouters in Brussels

1965-06-18 to 1967-02-15 Ilona worked as apprentice hairdresser but did not complete

1968-08-19 Ilona Australia visa certificate of conduct

1968-10-01

De Hedervary Frederick( RENOV PUBS ), BE0858473358, Financiële informatie - Infobel België - Telefoongids

This was created in 1968 the year before he visited Australia for a three month holiday. He lists three of his aliases as if there are three men doing it. Did he set this up so that Australian authorities would accept his application for resident status? Had he chosen these names back then?

Financial information

Registered officeRue des Francs 46 1040 Brussels BRUSSELS-CAPITAL

Date of creation 01/10/1968

VATBE0858473358

Fiscal year

Administrators

Frederick De Hereditary

Willy David-coppenolle

Ric Blum

Nacebel classificationDesigning and conducting advertising and promotional campaigns for others through the various media

Other linksPublications in the Belgian Official GazettePublications annual accounts NBBEmployer Directory

1968-12-13 Ilona residence at 155 Croussoo de Wavre Bruxelles 5

1969-03-07 Ilona correspondence address Overijse 15 Avenue Henri Conscience

1969-04-16 Ilona residence at 46, rue des Francs, Etterbeek

1969-04-23 Australian visitor visa issued to WW Brussels

1969-05-10 alleged marriage date between Ilona Kinczel and Willy Wouters in Brussels.

1969-05-11 Ilona flew to Australia

1969-05-24 Willy Wouters, status Never Married flew Qantas from London to Perth on a three months holiday visa

1969-05-26 Applied for resident status Willy Waitress residence 6 Gosbell St, Paddington which is in Sydney

In NAA file, RB's application to Aus lists wife IK. She has her own public file with photos.

1969-10-02 Willy Wouters granted resident status in Sydney due to alleged marriage to Ilona Kinczel

 

[LEO123]

I’m most interested to hear the evidence at the Inquest, from the Optometrist Marion supposedly visited in Grafton. She has a distinctive freckle in her right eye. This would surely have been recorded. At the very least examination result compared to previous Optometrist visits in her life should shed some light on whether it was actually her…..

 

[Estelle]

I recently sent this to TLV.

"De Hedervary Frederick( RENOV PUBS ), BE0858473358, Financiële informatie - Infobel België - Telefoongids

This was created in 1968 the year before he visited Australia for a three month holiday. He lists three of his aliases as if there are three men doing it. Did he set this up so that Australian authorities would accept his application for resident status? Had he chosen these names back then?

Financial information

Registered officeRue des Francs 46 1040 Brussels BRUSSELS-CAPITAL

Date of creation 01/10/1968

VATBE0858473358

Fiscal year

Administrators

Frederick De Hedervary

Willy David-coppenolle

Ric Blum

Nacebel classificationDesigning and conducting advertising and promotional campaigns for others through the various media

Other linksPublications in the Belgian Official GazettePublications annual accounts NBBEmployer Directory

This was their reply:

"We know of Renov Pubs and I’ve tried to push for information about this as I jerk it’s super important but apparently Australia cannot request international documents and they won’t give them to authorities."

 

[Estelle]

H'mm, I didn't quite understand this bit in the latest podcast episode - were they saying he was using the real FR's age on the 1988 driver's licence, or the exact date of birth 2/12/1947? I didn't quite get that. Thanks if anyone can enlighten.

I assumed that it was the real FR's date of birth he put on the faked birth certificate. Didn't he state in his ad that he was that age and then possibly to Marion too?

 

[Estelle]

I’m most interested to hear the evidence at the Inquest, from the Optometrist Marion supposedly visited in Grafton. She has a distinctive freckle in her right eye. This would surely have been recorded. At the very least examination result compared to previous Optometrist visits in her life should shed some light on whether it was actually her…..

I thought they addressed this in the first Inquest. Apparently, they had no records and had no memory of Marion. IMO possibly RM's wife used Marion's Medicare card to get a free eye test and a new pair of glasses to make people believe that Marion was still alive or at least in Australia.

 

[Estelle]

I think most of this information below came from the NAA records but I can't take credit for it all as someone else posted it first. I have added to it as new info came along.

There are seven interesting things to note about this timeline below.

1. Why was Ilona still using her Ilona Wouters name when she died at age 31yo in Melbourne?
2. Why are her children (daughter and possibly son?) still using the Wouters name?
3. Why did RB state on his Departure card that he was divorced when he and Ilona left Australia on the same flight?
4. If Ilona supposedly married in Hungary later to M J Reid, was this another assumed name RB used and also faked this alleged Marriage Certificate?
5. Was RB the father of her two children?
6. Note that he changed his name allegedly to an English sounding name that would be an easier name to use for Australia?
7. There is no record of RB returning to Australia at that time. IMO RB must have also got a fake passport in the name of M J Reid as the Willy Wouters name had a criminal record.

This is the timeline:

1970-02-15 Ilona left Australia on UT2506 from Sydney to Belgium?

1970-02-15 Willy Wouters departed Australia without a re-entry visa on UT2506 to Belgium, status Divorced (2)

More convictions in Belgium and France, for fraud, attempted fraud, breach of trust, impersonation. Various short prison sentences in France, the longest 4 years, most to be served concurrently.

1970 Ilona married in Budapest Hungary to MJR (Reid?)

1971 Ilona first child born (daughter ER)

1971-6-23 WW.Arrested Rouen, Discharged 21/5/1974

1971-12-09 Willy Wouters Rouen France, sentenced to 4 years prison for fraud, forgery, confidence tricks, giving false identity

1972-01-11 WW sentenced to one month for unsecured cheques in absentia in France.

1972-11-16 Willy Wouters Lille France, 1 years prison (concurrent with previous sentence)

1973-01-23 Willy Waitress Fraud 1 years prison (concurrent with previous sentences)

1973 Ilona second child born (son CR)

1974-01 Willy Wouters App Dousai "checks without cover" 1 years prison

1974-05-21 Willy Wouters discharged from prison. He may have then joined Ilona in Hungary but where he was is unaccounted for.

1976?? Willy Wouters must have returned to Australia but no records can be found say immigration dept. Did he actually return with or before Ilona in 1976 as M J Reid? Did they just separate or divorce or were never really married?

My theory is that they may not have been married when they came to Australia, but he faked the marriage certificate and became a resident due to her. Then they went to Hungary on the same flight stating he was divorced and he decided to change his name from Wouters to M J Reid as he had gone/was going to prison. So he faked the marriage certificate so he could return to Australia again under M J Reid and no criminal record would show. Australian authorities have never understood how RB returned to Australia. Maybe Ilona kept her name as Ilona Wouters as that was the name on the first faked marriage certificate (which authorities did not know was faked) but it was the name on her passport so she had to keep it. She went to Melbourne and he went to Sydney on return. Ilona had a son and daughter. I assume RB was the father. Does any of this make sense?

 

[KiwiNZ]

H'mm, I didn't quite understand this bit in the latest podcast episode - were they saying he was using the real FR's age on the 1988 driver's licence, or the exact date of birth 2/12/1947? I didn't quite get that. Thanks if anyone can enlighten.

I also thought at the inquest the middle name was slightly different ? did anyone else think it was like Nikoli (?)

if the birthdate and middle name different then he may have just copied the name / him. If all exact he may have stolen documents to assume his identity.

But its all to close for me to say it was just a coincidence

 

[Estelle]

What do you think of Marion's signature on the Arrivals card? Did she sign "Flora Remakel"? It's not clear. Has this signature been compared with her passport signature?

 

[Itsapuzzle]

I also thought at the inquest the middle name was slightly different ? did anyone else think it was like Nikoli (?)

if the birthdate and middle name different then he may have just copied the name / him. If all exact he may have stolen documents to assume his identity.

But its all to close for me to say it was just a coincidence

It sounded like Nokolis or Nopolis when Mr Casselden said it at the inquest, at least to me it sounded like the first two letters were N-o?

 

[Willowpea]

I’m a few pages behind on here. Just listening to the latest podcast and my heart is breaking for Sal. After all this time she is finally close to answers but at the same time any hopes of seeing her mum again are fading. I know it was something she always suspected, but just bittersweet. This person needs to own up and give sally the answers she needs to begin the healing process.

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

I recently sent this to TLV.

"De Hedervary Frederick( RENOV PUBS ), BE0858473358, Financiële informatie - Infobel België - Telefoongids

This was created in 1968 the year before he visited Australia for a three month holiday. He lists three of his aliases as if there are three men doing it. Did he set this up so that Australian authorities would accept his application for resident status? Had he chosen these names back then?

Financial information

Registered officeRue des Francs 46 1040 Brussels BRUSSELS-CAPITAL

Date of creation 01/10/1968

VATBE0858473358

Fiscal year

Administrators

Frederick De Hedervary

Willy David-coppenolle

Ric Blum

Nacebel classificationDesigning and conducting advertising and promotional campaigns for others through the various media

Other linksPublications in the Belgian Official GazettePublications annual accounts NBBEmployer Directory

This was their reply:

"We know of Renov Pubs and I’ve tried to push for information about this as I jerk it’s super important but apparently Australia cannot request international documents and they won’t give them to authorities."

So if you were a Belgium person.. living in Belgium you could get them? Because there must be someone on here from Belgium!

 

[Estelle]

So if you were a Belgium person.. living in Belgium you could get them? Because there must be someone on here from Belgium!

Yes I think one of our members comes from Belgium who might have contacts there now.

 

[brjakj]

So if you were a Belgium person.. living in Belgium you could get them? Because there must be someone on here from Belgium!

If it’s like australia, there should be a department equivalent to asic where you could access the records for a fee.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Very good questions about his relationship to Ilona @Estelle !
Fingers crossed we get some answers tomorrow.

1. Why was Ilona still using her Ilona Wouters name when she died at age 31yo in Melbourne?
2. Why are her children (daughter and possibly son?) still using the Wouters name?
3. Why did RB state on his Departure card that he was divorced when he and Ilona left Australia on the same flight?
4. If Ilona supposedly married in Hungary later to M J Reid, was this another assumed name RB used and also faked this alleged Marriage Certificate?
5. Was RB the father of her two children?
6. Note that he changed his name allegedly to an English sounding name that would be an easier name to use for Australia?
7. There is no record of RB returning to Australia at that time. IMO RB must have also got a fake passport in the name of M J Reid as the Willy Wouters name had a criminal record.

 

[Reginald54]

If it’s like australia, there should be a department equivalent to asic where you could access the records for a fee.

Crossroads Bank for Enterprises

The Crossroads Bank for Enterprises (CBE) is the database in which the FPS Economy collects all the basic data of Belgian companies. The purpose of the CBE is to render the operation of public services more efficient thanks to a unique identification number, and to simplify administrative procedures for businesses.

 

[Reginald54]

Sorry a bit blurred. Extracts from Crossroads Bank for Enterprises related to Frederick De Hedervary and Renov Pubs.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

I've been meaning to ask, what on earth does Renov Pubs mean? Pubs is Public?

 

[Carovb5]

Yes I think one of our members comes from Belgium who might have contacts there now.

I am. Never done something like this, but if you tell me what we need, i’m willing to give it a go.

 

[brjakj]

It is possible that the alias names on the renov pubs listing could have been placed there by authorities, especially if he was wanted in Belgium.

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

I've been meaning to ask, what on earth does Renov Pubs mean? Pubs is Public?

Good question.. public? Publications? The search always has it surrounded by renovated pubs! Lol