Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #9

[Estelle]

If DdeH wrote to WW/FdeH in prison I think that would have been after their marriage since he was sentenced to one year in June 1976 (but departed Australia July 1976 so ???) and to three years in March 1978.

I was just trying to fit Mishy's idea that Ddh and RB could have met in Sydney in 1970 into my timeline. to see if it worked. It's just speculation.

Yes he went to prison after he married too when DdH could have written to him.

 

[JLZ]

12 Feb 1976 – MJReid changes name to FDdH

The name change was from Willy Wouters to Frederick de Hedervary. The Department of Immigration's notes refer to the deed poll "on file".

 

[mishy66]

Yes it is possible he met D while in Australia after arriving with Ilona in 1970 and either working or brunching in her parents cafe .....and perhaps she was writing to him but possibly not knowing he was incarcerated during that time , returned and married her eventually . I don't know why they lied about it but i am guessing they think they have a good reason to cover something.

DdeH said she was writing to him in prison during the inquest.
This is part of the reason why I believe she met him prior to the so called ship meet up they both talk about.
I did post up a few days back what my theory was....

 

[mishy66]

If DdeH wrote to WW/FdeH in prison I think that would have been after their marriage since he was sentenced to one year in June 1976 (but departed Australia July 1976 so ???) and to three years in March 1978.

from Estelles timeline:
1971-6-23 WW.Arrested Rouen, Discharged 21/5/1974

1971-12-09 Willy Wouters Rouen France, sentenced to 4 years prison for fraud, forgery, confidence tricks, giving false identity
1972-01-11 WW sentenced to one month for unsecured cheques in absentia in France.
1972-11-16 Willy Wouters Lille France, 1 years prison (concurrent with previous sentence)
1973-01-23 Willy Wouters Fraud 1 years prison (concurrent with previous sentences)

 

[Estelle]

How could RB legally change his name PRIOR to being an Australian citizen? I think I recall him mumbling something about "a lawyer did it for me" during questioning. More like forgery IMO

It's complicated:

WW received AU citizenship in 1969 on the basis of allegedly marrying Ilona K in 1968.
1970 in Belgium IMO he changed his name to MJReid whether legally or illegally
1970 in Belgium MJRead married Ilona W whether legally or illegally.
Ilona is the same person but she now has a different surname so it could be a different person if not checked.
Ilona has never divorced WW but now she is IRead and already had AU citizenship which passes on to her husband
MJRead is then able to return to Australia as an Australian citizen without alerting authorities.

 

[mishy66]

Her application to come to Australia is began in 68, so the pregnancy and coming to AU are likely unrelated to one another. It is interesting that the Renov Pubs company is registered in ‘68 using an address that IK also included on her paperwork to come to AU (46 rue de Francs). Not sure the significance, but interesting nonetheless. I feel confident WW was conning her in some way, but not clear his plan aside from establishing residency in AU.

I noticed this address also and there was another one on one the documents which I will have to try and find again.

 

[KiwiNZ]

can anyone else access IK's file on NAA or has access been restricted

 

[auntywithflowers]

I thought I’d search some arrivals with FDH names he said he had used.
Starting with Bernard Dupont arrived 30th April 1970 on a flight from Noumea to Sydney

the timeline works.. after IK and before Jail

*not saying this is him just searched the name this is the only 1 for this name.

Edit - this person says he is a resident and was out of Oz for 2 months.. timeline works
View digital copy

Hey guys, eye spy has uncovered just what we need. Amazing effort. If this correct, we have proof now, for the first time, that The man of many names has including his* I can't remember anything* , wife, just purged themselves in collaboration together under oath in the coronial inquest

 

[JLZ]

from Estelles timeline:
1971-6-23 WW.Arrested Rouen, Discharged 21/5/1974

1971-12-09 Willy Wouters Rouen France, sentenced to 4 years prison for fraud, forgery, confidence tricks, giving false identity
1972-01-11 WW sentenced to one month for unsecured cheques in absentia in France.
1972-11-16 Willy Wouters Lille France, 1 years prison (concurrent with previous sentence)
1973-01-23 Willy Wouters Fraud 1 years prison (concurrent with previous sentences)

Yes he was in gaol in that earlier period but he also committed crimes 1976-77 for which he was sentenced to imprisonment as I said. It's not quite clear whether he actually served those later terms of imprisonment. I'm inclined to think he did and it was when he claimed to running the family's factory and DdeH was in UK or elsewhere in Europe. But I'm not clear when he was meant to be running the factory; perhaps that was later.

 

[Estelle]

The name change was from Willy Wouters to Frederick de Hedervary. The Department of Immigration's notes refer to the deed poll "on file".

OK so if so, that can still work with same sequence but deleting changing from MichaelJRead to FdH.
In this case, RB simply got another faked passport in the name of MichaelJRead (or someone else) with AU residency to JUST to return to Australia in 1974/5 so that the Immigration Dept would not be alerted and then threw that passport away.

 

[auntywithflowers]

Hey guys, eye spy has uncovered just what we need. Amazing effort. If this correct, we have proof now, for the first time, that The man of many names has including his* I can't remember anything* , wife, just purged themselves in collaboration together under oath in the coronial inquest

He did come back under an alias name. They both lied. They never met on the ship coming to Australia. His lies about seeing her before they ever met, in the hotel was also a lie.. double triple purgery. His wife D, is up to her eyeballs in his scams

 

[Estelle]

Yes he was in gaol in that earlier period but he also committed crimes 1976-77 for which he was sentenced to imprisonment as I said. It's not quite clear whether he actually served those later terms of imprisonment. I'm inclined to think he did and it was when he claimed to running the family's factory and DdeH was in UK or elsewhere in Europe. But I'm not clear when he was meant to be running the factory; perhaps that was later.

I took his running the family furniture business as a cover for his second stint in prison. But I'm not sure if those crimes in 76/77 were only sentences to be served and they couldn't find him so he never went to prison for them due to the name change.

 

[gymtonic]

I noticed this address also and there was another one on one the documents which I will have to try and find again.

The Cordemans et Cie company that I referred to in earlier posts was also at rue des Franks 46 Etterbeek if this helps?

 

[JLZ]

I took his running the family furniture business as a cover for his second stint in prison. But I'm not sure if those crimes in 76/77 were only sentences to be served and they couldn't find him so he never went to prison for them due to the name change.

Perhaps they sentenced him in his absence and caught up with him later? The notes say he was coming and going for several years after those judgements but then he departed Australia December 1981 and returned January 1986. That's enough time for four years' gaol.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Can someone tell me if LL was a long term friend of Marion and did Sally know her and are there any pictures of her or was she at the inquest.I don't know why , but I'm a little suspicious of her. JMO MOO

LL was Marion's former neighbour. Once Marion got her job at TSS, she moved from NSW to QLD, rented a property and met LL. We don't know the exact dates. On 18 Jan 1994, Marion bought house at 15 Merinda Court, Ashmore and moved away from LL, but remained friends as they didn't live far. When Marion sold her house, she stayed at LL's.

Remember that WS is victim friendly. That includes the victim's family and friends. They have their own confusion and grief to deal with, and are off limits unless police indicate otherwise. The Coroner and current police investigation know more than we will ever know. If they genuinely thought LL could provide value to the case, they would have made her testify at the inquest as a witness.

Timeline
25 April 1997
Sells home for $165,000 ($15,000 less than purchase price).

About 21 May 1997
Marion moved in with LL. Exact date unknown. During this stay:
• Sally calls LL looking for mum, but Marion told LL she was with Sally, no one knows where Marion spent the night
• another night, Marion got back very late and told LL she locked her keys in car.

2 June 1997
The sale of house money comes through and mortgage discharge at Colonial State Bank , Ashmore QLD. Money is placed in high interest earning account with a $5k daily limit, at the same bank.

22 June 1997
Marion declines lift to Brisbane Airport. LL drops her off at Southport bus depot.

 

[mishy66]

I'm not suggesting she discovered she was pregnant and arranged emigration within weeks. Mishy argued Ilona had nothing to gain from marrying WW and I I'm saying that possibly she did, in May 1969. Think of her arriving in Australia alone and pregnant, shortly to become a single mother, when single mothers were treated harshly even to the point of hospitals stealing their newborns.

The correspondence with the Renov Pubs address does indicate that she'd known WW for some time, doesn't it. It hardly seems likely at this point that anybody knew him without being conned in some way.

I am suggesting that she WAS in a relationship with him back home and that he promised her a new life in Australia and she possibly already has other extended family here so it sounds like a dream.
"WW uses IK to gain Aust residency obviously. He swoons her with a new life in Aust.
She is already pregnant when they arrive as her first child is born 9 mths after arrival."

 

[Deleted member 249471]

correct me if I am wrong but IK's parents came with her to Australia ?
now I have to go and figure out where I got that info from lol

They didn't. IK came to Aus alone. Her paperwork said her parent's had their own applications.

can anyone else access IK's file on NAA or has access been restricted

No. I can access IK file. Sometimes I just have to keep refreshing or come back at a later time for it to load properly. It might have something to do with NAA making system updates to their site.

 

[gymtonic]

@Pineconemind this is VERY interesting!

I think you are onto something with this.

So is the idea you are getting at that Chusan is the name of the mysterious “yacht” that was mentioned in the inquest? I assumed that the yacht was another “Walter Mitty” moment designed to big-note himself. I mean given the rest of the wackiness of this case, and given that Chusan means boat (Zhou = boat Shan = mountain/hill) in Chinese, maybe there is a yacht with this name that has been owned by RB?!

 

[mishy66]

I have combined Mishy's idea with mine. What do you think? It's a little long-winded but it's just how I put my thoughts together today so it needs editing.


May 1969? IW becomes pregnant immediately WW arrives. IW and WW both need to earn money so they get a hospitality job for cash in a cafe which is owned by DdH’s parents. DdH is 18yo, a Secretary and the daughter of the owners who later meets them and they all get along well.
.

No I said I think she was ALREADY pregnant before arriving in Australia -
"WW uses IK to gain Aust residency obviously. He swoons her with a new life in Aust.
She is already pregnant when they arrive as her first child is born 9 mths after arrival.....
...... She by now has realised he is a swindler and wants to go home to be with her family.
(At this point 1970 with IK pregnant, I think he has met DW as I stated a few posts back)"......

They have split up already by the time they both leave for OS - she because she has met another man MJR and he because his work is now done.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

ICYMI @ElaineS said TLV fb sent her a message to tell us that RB's QLD Drivers License was under the name Fernand Nocolas Remakel.

I had been saying Fernand Nikoluase Remakel. My bad.

Does anyone have any ideas on Nocolas name origins?

*Oh, ok, it's just generally European. I'm seeing it in Russian, Polish, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese and French.