Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #9

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

Maybe the same Company he set up in '68?
Cordemans et Cie
the same address given on IK and WW entry forms
Maybe she worked for him?

Maybe cordemans et Cie is a tax agent who from what I can find now lives in Spain still has that company on his FB profile.. I often wondered if he was the ‘accountant’ referred to many times by RB..? Right at this minute I can’t remember his name lol

 

[MrsWattle]

FYI there are many Reid and Ried in Hungary, with alternate spellings and accents. Michael is also seen a lot, pronounced Mee-kah-el. Some are even Jewish.

Although it isn't seen much anymore (unless you're a royal) families DID marry within themselves. It was common for 2nd, 3rd, of very distant cousins to marry. Perhaps this is how she met MJ Reid so quickly – they knew each other from the family?

And after the horrors of being married to WW, she was like "yep, this will do just fine."

Their daughter who lives in Melbourne could hold all the answers.
So then is MJR still alive?. There is one on Facebook with connections to a school in the Philippines.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Listening to latest episode... RB sounds like an upstanding young man – recognising all his wives' children with other men as his own. Like, he didn't need to do that, but he is noble and kind.

He doesn't even question why all his wives run off with other men, just weeks and months after her marries them. He just gets back together with them after they cheat on him, and accepts all the children born during his marriages that aren't his. What a saviour. He's basically the Robin Hood of dads.

 

[MrsWattle]

I'm still catching up, so apologies if this has been said before.

Do we know for sure that the Wollongbar house was rented under the DH name? Could he have felt comfortable with Marion knowing that address because she knew him as Remakel and he rented under Remakel (or another) name. He had every intention of leaving there before she came back from Europe and she (or landlord) would have no clue how to find him as a DH.

How did Casselden know about the house in Wollongbar? Did he see the rental agreement, or is he going off of pension cheque change of addresses or some such thing?

Detectives probably checked his bank withdrawal locations under their disabled pension name. And possibly all their PO Box names and post office redirections.

 

[MrsWattle]

The wheely Walker with "HERO" should be MACHIAVELLIAN

 

[Estelle]

This is what I can see in IK's NAA file.

Yes I agree Ilona had a brother. But it does not say he came to Australia. All it says that he is willing to come to the selection centre.

 

[gymtonic]

Maybe the same Company he set up in '68?
Cordemans et Cie
the same address given on IK and WW entry forms
Maybe she worked for him?

Maybe the same Company he set up in '68?
Cordemans et Cie
the same address given on IK and WW entry forms
Maybe she worked for him?

Yes, this is what I have noted. She also lists He occupation Company Manageress on one of the forms.

 

[Estelle]

Here's the thing... although the Coroner cannot say RB is guilty and charge him, she can say if she thinks he was involved or 'likely responsible' for Marion's disappearance and death. It's not legally binding but it will be public knowledge posted online with his name(s) for everyone to see.

From what I can tell, Casselden and the Coroner are trying to determine whether RB has a pattern of quickly marrying/forming relationships, and deceiving these women to financially benefit from them.

'Deceit with the intention of financially benefitting' is the key phrase for the Coroner to determine her findings, and it's the main trigger for charges by police.

When I pinpoint RB's lies, evasiveness and contradictions, it's often to do with proving that he does NOT have a pattern of 'Deceit with the intention of financially benefitting'. IMO, RB lies to prove:

• he is NOT quickly marrying/forming relationships as he's known them longer than he is being accused of
• he did NOT target them as the meetings were random
• he did NOT deceive them as the women approached him
• the relationships are NOT for financial gain as he never asked for anything or took anything from them
• he only left them because they were doing him wrong.

So then it starts to make sense why RB says:

• he's known Marion since 1968 and she propositioned him both times
• he met DW years earlier and NOT just before their wedding
• (but he was in jail for 4 years so only available date to lie about is early 1970s)
• he's abandoning women NOT because they were fake relationships and he milked them dry, but because the women cheated on him and the babies aren't his.

In some instances, he's agreed to lying to the women, but under no circumstance can he agree to lying and profiting from them. That will be the end of him.

Sorry for rambling. Does this make sense?

Excellent summary, Peralta.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Random topic. Can anyone hear the name of the family business at 5.16.07 on day 7? The family had a factory in Ath but moved to a bigger premises in Ellezelles, about 20ks away. I think the latest podcast inquest episode said it was in France, but I believe it's Ellezelles in Belgium. MOO

 

[ruby925]

If, as it looks, the Chusan passenger list for 1971 is still unopened on the NAA site, this would show if any of the Walker family and/or WW with an alias were on it. IF he did have another passport at this point, used it to exit as well and possibly re-enter Aus when released from prison.
Obviously his story of the lost passport in 1970 does not stack up when he applies for citizenship in 1976 as the authorities seemed to think he entered in 1974 but cannot find an arrival card for him... so maybe his Belgian passport showed him leaving in 1970, but not re-entering post 1974. With or without the Chusan trip, there must have been another alias attached to a passport that has not yet come to light IMO, ramblings of an evening...

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Ooooh... the potential end game RB has for his victims.
It's pure speculation and I could be very wrong.... but does he use the boat to make them disappear?
Did he moor it in the French Riviera?
Could this be where Marion thought she was going when she said she wanted to 'enjoy her holiday' and wouldn't have the ability to call or write in a while?

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

Hi all. I e been following the podcast and inquest avidly for some time now and have been a Websleuths member for years but only recently jumped on to this thread.

Your theorizing and surmising and sleuthing is fantastic and I have no doubt has helped move the case along.

I’m on holidays and restricted to my phone so searching is a tad difficult. Line I thought I might pursue is his aliases but wasn’t sure if anyone had done any work on this.

I was thinking of collecting all of the stats from each alias we know and out a timeline and associated interactions and actions to each name. The ones discussed recently on here will be easier and probably more a matter of compiling the information already collected in a different form but I’m not sure what others have done in relation to researching his other aliases (apart from one member - sorry I can’t find the post).

My thoughts behind this area of information is based on my belief he wouldn’t have created an alias without a particular purpose. I want to seek out and define the aliases that don’t have any actions or interactions associated and then drill down on them. I’m sure it would uncover some interesting facts.

Is anyone else currently working on this?

I love this idea @Zanzibar. It would be an interesting system for following the aliases and crimes. I imagine the aliases as separate identities, with separate skills or objectives. An alias created for a purpose. Almost like a multiple personality. ie Remakel = Marion, new life in Luxembourg, business proposition we don't know yet.

 

[gymtonic]

Here's the thing... although the Coroner cannot say RB is guilty and charge him, she can say if she thinks he was involved or 'likely responsible' for Marion's disappearance and death. It's not legally binding but it will be public knowledge posted online with his name(s) for everyone to see.

From what I can tell, Casselden and the Coroner are trying to determine whether RB has a pattern of quickly marrying/forming relationships, and deceiving these women to financially benefit from them.

'Deceit with the intention of financially benefitting' is the key phrase for the Coroner to determine her findings, and it's the main trigger for charges by police.

When I pinpoint RB's lies, evasiveness and contradictions, it's often to do with proving that he does NOT have a pattern of 'Deceit with the intention of financially benefitting'. IMO, RB lies to prove:

• he is NOT quickly marrying/forming relationships as he's known them longer than he is being accused of
• he did NOT target them as the meetings were random
• he did NOT deceive them as the women approached him
• the relationships are NOT for financial gain as he never asked for anything or took anything from them
• he only left them because they were doing him wrong.

So then it starts to make sense why RB says:

• he's known Marion since 1968 and she propositioned him both times
• he met DW years earlier and NOT just before their wedding
• (but he was in jail for 4 years so only available date to lie about is early 1970s)
• he's abandoning women NOT because they were fake relationships and he milked them dry, but because the women cheated on him and the babies aren't his.

In some instances, he's agreed to lying to the women, but under no circumstance can he agree to lying and profiting from them. That will be the end of him.

Sorry for rambling. Does this make sense?

Yes, Nailed it! This is why I am so interested in his vehement denial of being arrested as Roger Lauzoney in Lille and of using the alias RL. Especially as RL was in possession of a passport in the name of FdH. Usually he will accept if there is proof and come up with a story to cover why. In this case, not (or at least that is MOO and memory of the inquest testimony on this point)

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

Here's the thing... although the Coroner cannot say RB is guilty and charge him, she can say if she thinks he was involved or 'likely responsible' for Marion's disappearance and death. It's not legally binding but it will be public knowledge posted online with his name(s) for everyone to see.

From what I can tell, Casselden and the Coroner are trying to determine whether RB has a pattern of quickly marrying/forming relationships, and deceiving these women to financially benefit from them.

'Deceit with the intention of financially benefitting' is the key phrase for the Coroner to determine her findings, and it's the main trigger for charges by police.

When I pinpoint RB's lies, evasiveness and contradictions, it's often to do with proving that he does NOT have a pattern of 'Deceit with the intention of financially benefitting'. IMO, RB lies to prove:

• he is NOT quickly marrying/forming relationships as he's known them longer than he is being accused of
• he did NOT target them as the meetings were random
• he did NOT deceive them as the women approached him
• the relationships are NOT for financial gain as he never asked for anything or took anything from them
• he only left them because they were doing him wrong.

So then it starts to make sense why RB says:

• he's known Marion since 1968 and she propositioned him both times
• he met DW years earlier and NOT just before their wedding
• (but he was in jail for 4 years so only available date to lie about is early 1970s)
• he's abandoning women NOT because they were fake relationships and he milked them dry, but because the women cheated on him and the babies aren't his.

In some instances, he's agreed to lying to the women, but under no circumstance can he agree to lying and profiting from them. That will be the end of him.

Sorry for rambling. Does this make sense?

Makes total sense. Even simpler, how can a man with 25 aliases be innocent of anything? I guess, if Mr C proves that RB has left a trail of nefarious activity involving women and lies, and then he connects Marion and her disappearance to RB -- there is a potential case. My concern was that by drawing out the inquest, Mr C allowed RB and his wife to create pathetic, aged characters who truly can't remember anything.

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

So RB has had 4 or 5 wives, and 2 of them died young? That's a pretty bad track record, imo.

 

[gymtonic]

Hi all. I e been following the podcast and inquest avidly for some time now and have been a Websleuths member for years but only recently jumped on to this thread.

Your theorizing and surmising and sleuthing is fantastic and I have no doubt has helped move the case along.

I’m on holidays and restricted to my phone so searching is a tad difficult. Line I thought I might pursue is his aliases but wasn’t sure if anyone had done any work on this.

I was thinking of collecting all of the stats from each alias we know and out a timeline and associated interactions and actions to each name. The ones discussed recently on here will be easier and probably more a matter of compiling the information already collected in a different form but I’m not sure what others have done in relation to researching his other aliases (apart from one member - sorry I can’t find the post).

My thoughts behind this area of information is based on my belief he wouldn’t have created an alias without a particular purpose. I want to seek out and define the aliases that don’t have any actions or interactions associated and then drill down on them. I’m sure it would uncover some interesting facts.

Is anyone else currently working on this?

I have made some comments on the Roger Lauzone alias, because to me it stands out for a number of reasons. It is an early one that RB denies, later date of birth, criminal record attached, company associated (?), North African connection (Francophone country Morocco). I was thinking only this morning of doing a deeper dive into this alias.

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

Ooooh... the potential end game RB has for his victims.
It's pure speculation and I could be very wrong.... but does he use the boat to make them disappear?
Did he moor it in the French Riviera?
Could this be where Marion thought she was going when she said she wanted to 'enjoy her holiday' and wouldn't have the ability to call or write in a while?

Nice. but why the French Riviera? UK much cheaper I imagine. A quick google showed that UK is a very popular place to register boats and yachts.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Nice. but why the French Riviera? UK much cheaper I imagine. A quick google showed that UK is a very popular place to register boats and yachts.

Only because he kept telling JO that they should go to the French Riviera and that RB used to spend weekdays in France while he lived in UK with DW. He used to bring back French food for his fam. IDK. You're right, it could've been moored anywhere! He could've even changed docks regularly to avoid detection or to be closer to wherever he took each victim.

 

[gymtonic]

DELETE

 

[Deleted member 249471]

The latest episode made me realise that RB and DW returned to Aus because she'd had enough and wanted to be closer to her family. RB said he wasn't pleased and that he wished he never relocated permanently.

I believe that! I bet he was having the time of his life running around all the countries in Europe, undetected and wrecking havoc. I'm sure getting women over each border was easy then.

You just can't do the same in Aus because we're an island and have no international borders. So it would take a hell of a lot to woo and convince an Aus woman to go overseas with him.

I think getting the woman away from home and to another country was an important part of his plan, to avoid detection and to muddle the trail.