Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #9

[Pineconemind]

Is it possible WW committed bigamy with IK and DdeH? And this is why covering the beginning tracks of his marriage to DdeH is so important.

Definitely!

 

[VisitorDog]

I don’t know if this has been listed or is such a long shot to not be at all useful (especially given the likelihood they were not on it) but the ‘visitor book’ on this website has some people that say they worked on the Chusan. What I can’t help thinking is that either DdH or RB did have a connection to the Chusan (perhaps just one of them) and that’s why their daughter was named after it. At some point they realised that it could be useful to them.

P&O Chusan

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

Why does the latest podcast episode say RB is aged 83? He was born (apparently) on the 9 July 1939. That makes him 82 until
July this year. Saying that I failed my O Level maths many years ago!

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

I bet that was RB reporting that Marion was buried in bushland in Armidale.

Which means she wasn't.

(This is a joke.)

 

[Meligator]

Definitely!

When asked about a divorce from IK he wasn't very clear...said she went to Hungary for the paperwork or something like that. All very confusing.

So, are any of his ex-wives still alive?

 

[Pineconemind]

I'm sorry if someone has already come across this & this has been covered, but why are their names listed as Josef Kinczel Reid & Elizabeth Notovny Reid?

Ilona Jacqueline Reid (1947 - 1978) - St Kilda (ancientfaces.com)

 

[Pineconemind]

When asked about a divorce from IK he wasn't very clear...said she went to Hungary for the paperwork or something like that. All very confusing.

So, are any of his ex-wives still alive?

Yes and why would she go to Hungary for the divorce papers, if the records as (Mr C says) show they were married on May 10 1969 Brussels? Or does he mean the Hungarian Embassy in Brussels?

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

After listening to the latest podcast episode I wish they could tone down the French/Belgium accent. It was easier to understand the real Mr aka. Other than that keep up the good work!

 

[KiwiNZ]

After listening to the latest podcast episode I wish they could tone down the French/Belgium accent. It was easier to understand the real Mr aka. Other than that keep up the good work!

lol I thought the same

 

[Deleted member 249471]

What evidence is there that he actually was Willy Wouters to begin with? What if the real Willy Wouters was in Sydney with Ilona at the same time that RB was arriving into Australia with DdH and that’s why they can’t say exactly when they did arrive, because it is impossible to be in two places at once.

Great point! While I still think WW could be a fabrication – he maybe even assumed someone else's identity, I do believe he is the WW from 1969 that was linked to IK. The photo on the top left is the one associated with that name and time of his life. It really does look like him! (It's ok if you think otherwise).

 

[Deleted member 249471]

If it’s a red herring call it’s very coincidental that they’d pick an area (Armidale) in the region of northern NSW of interest, that was, prior to this inquest, unbeknownst to the general public. Follow a main road from Ballina and you’ll get to Grafton, Nymboida, then Armidale.

If I remember correctly, there was another woman called Marion who went missing from around that area. Many believe the tip was confusing the 'Marions' and was guessing where either might be. Psychics often call in tips based on their visions, some of which vary wildly in quality and accuracy IDK. Maybe the tip was genuine and Marion is in Armidale and GS simply missed it? But I also know crime stoppers and police get A LOT of tips, and almost all of them are rubbish.

 

[brjakj]

I'm sorry if someone has already come across this & this has been covered, but why are their names listed as Josef Kinczel Reid & Elizabeth Notovny Reid?

Ilona Jacqueline Reid (1947 - 1978) - St Kilda (ancientfaces.com)

No sure, but births deaths and marriages has their surname as unknown.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

FYI there are many Reid and Ried in Hungary, with alternate spellings and accents. Michael is also seen a lot, pronounced Mee-kah-el. Some are even Jewish.

Although it isn't seen much anymore (unless you're a royal) families DID marry within themselves. It was common for 2nd, 3rd, of very distant cousins to marry. Perhaps this is how she met MJ Reid so quickly – they knew each other from the family?

And after the horrors of being married to WW, she was like "yep, this will do just fine."

 

[Pineconemind]

Great point! While I still think WW could be a fabrication – he maybe even assumed someone else's identity, I do believe he is the WW from 1969 that was linked to IK. The photo on the top left is the one associated with that name and time of his life. It really does look like him! (It's ok if you think otherwise).

Yep, I agree!

 

[Pineconemind]

FYI there are many Reid and Ried in Hungary, with alternate spellings and accents. Michael is also seen a lot, pronounced Mee-kah-el. Some are even Jewish.

Although it isn't seen much anymore (unless you're a royal) families DID marry within themselves. It was common for 2nd, 3rd, of very distant cousins to marry. Perhaps this is how she met MJ Reid so quickly – they knew each other from the family?

100% about the names! Michael can also be the english version of Hungarain "Mihaly" and it is not uncommon (even now a days) for people to use the english version of their birth name, especially when out of one's home country. It's easier to spell out to an english speaker and it's easier for the english speaker to pronounce, (or vice versa).

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Here's the thing... although the Coroner cannot say RB is guilty and charge him, she can say if she thinks he was involved or 'likely responsible' for Marion's disappearance and death. It's not legally binding but it will be public knowledge posted online with his name(s) for everyone to see.

From what I can tell, Casselden and the Coroner are trying to determine whether RB has a pattern of quickly marrying/forming relationships, and deceiving these women to financially benefit from them.

'Deceit with the intention of financially benefitting' is the key phrase for the Coroner to determine her findings, and it's the main trigger for charges by police.

When I pinpoint RB's lies, evasiveness and contradictions, it's often to do with proving that he does NOT have a pattern of 'Deceit with the intention of financially benefitting'. IMO, RB lies to prove:

• he is NOT quickly marrying/forming relationships as he's known them longer than he is being accused of
• he did NOT target them as the meetings were random
• he did NOT deceive them as the women approached him
• the relationships are NOT for financial gain as he never asked for anything or took anything from them
• he only left them because they were doing him wrong.

So then it starts to make sense why RB says:

• he's known Marion since 1968 and she propositioned him both times
• he met DW years earlier and NOT just before their wedding
• (but he was in jail for 4 years so only available date to lie about is early 1970s)
• he's abandoning women NOT because they were fake relationships and he milked them dry, but because the women cheated on him and the babies aren't his.

In some instances, he's agreed to lying to the women, but under no circumstance can he agree to lying and profiting from them. That will be the end of him.

Sorry for rambling. Does this make sense?

 

[Zanzibar]

Hi all. I e been following the podcast and inquest avidly for some time now and have been a Websleuths member for years but only recently jumped on to this thread.

Your theorizing and surmising and sleuthing is fantastic and I have no doubt has helped move the case along.

I’m on holidays and restricted to my phone so searching is a tad difficult. Line I thought I might pursue is his aliases but wasn’t sure if anyone had done any work on this.

I was thinking of collecting all of the stats from each alias we know and out a timeline and associated interactions and actions to each name. The ones discussed recently on here will be easier and probably more a matter of compiling the information already collected in a different form but I’m not sure what others have done in relation to researching his other aliases (apart from one member - sorry I can’t find the post).

My thoughts behind this area of information is based on my belief he wouldn’t have created an alias without a particular purpose. I want to seek out and define the aliases that don’t have any actions or interactions associated and then drill down on them. I’m sure it would uncover some interesting facts.

Is anyone else currently working on this?

 

[LexiS123]

A few thoughts (feel free to comment/dispute):

Did Marion actually ship her belongings to his address?

• As @Peralta states, she may have just put her things in a removal van and not known where it was going.
• As @buyerninety suggests, it's also possible that she did know where it was going, and if she knew his actual home address then maybe that's what made the difference in her case - something that could concretely identify him.
• If this was the case, I also find it hard to imagine that DdH had no idea what was going on. A bunch of furniture and items appear at your house and you just have no clue about their origins and don't care to ask any questions? Admittedly, it's possible that there were frequently items coming and going to the property that had unknown origins.
• Did the storage container with Marion's other belongings in actually exist? And was this sent to a location overseas?

Did RB have access to another property that could have been used to ship the items to (and stay in afterwards, if Marion did meet back up with him willingly upon her return)? Is this where they met the night Marion was unaccounted for (and possibly more nights)?

• Is this something to do with why he moved his family to Wollongbar? Or WHAT is that whole thing about?

Re: all of the Amsterdam/Netherlands comments, I don't think it's insignificant that in one of her postcards Marion talks about renting a car to drive to Amsterdam. Whether this happened or not is another matter, but it seems like that was part of the plan?

Did RB plan to take her on the Orient Express and hope to pull a Christie-level situation using multiple disguises and aliases that all had a hand in it?

I'm still catching up, so apologies if this has been said before.

Do we know for sure that the Wollongbar house was rented under the DH name? Could he have felt comfortable with Marion knowing that address because she knew him as Remakel and he rented under Remakel (or another) name. He had every intention of leaving there before she came back from Europe and she (or landlord) would have no clue how to find him as a DH.

How did Casselden know about the house in Wollongbar? Did he see the rental agreement, or is he going off of pension cheque change of addresses or some such thing?

 

[mishy66]

Just info re the “Euro Manager” (sic)…on the document I saw it was listed as Euro Ménager and I believe this would have been the name of a shop/ store selling household goods, as “ménager” means household. To me it looked as though he worked at that shop.
On the first arrival card he lists the usual occupation as Company Director (it is difficult to read but I believe it says “adm. de sociétés” in other words “administrateur de sociétés” or in English Company Director.

Maybe the same Company he set up in '68?
Cordemans et Cie
the same address given on IK and WW entry forms
Maybe she worked for him?

 

[mishy66]

I'm sorry if someone has already come across this & this has been covered, but why are their names listed as Josef Kinczel Reid & Elizabeth Notovny Reid?

Ilona Jacqueline Reid (1947 - 1978) - St Kilda (ancientfaces.com)

Maybe the entry has been added incorrectly as often happens with Genealogy ?