Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #9

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

Hmmm, I vaguely remember this exact question from a couple of years back. I don't fully remember the details but I know that Sally came out and said there was some kind of error with the dates that were reported. And in fact, there would have been time for the caller to have seen reports of Marion missing. I'm sorry I can't remember the correct dates.

Also from memory there were varied reports about the search. They went something along the lines of, at first it wasn't followed up at all, but then GS did go and search! Some complain that it was barely done, just a few hours with one dog (not even a cadaver dog) in the rain. And GS of course said it was a very thorough search over several says but not a single thing was found, and the people that lived/owned the property had no link whatsoever to the call.

Sally definitely corrected this theory and said the caller could've definitely seen the articles about Marion. I think it was the tip date that was wrong - it might've been 2008 or 2012. It definitely wasn't 2002.

Yep I remember a few hours with a dog in the rain … not thorough IMO

 

[LouLouSleuth]

What evidence is there that he actually was Willy Wouters to begin with? What if the real Willy Wouters was in Sydney with Ilona at the same time that RB was arriving into Australia with DdH and that’s why they can’t say exactly when they did arrive, because it is impossible to be in two places at once.

Mind blown!!! This could actually work. There has been much discussion the he might not be WW, but the assumption is that he had assumed the WW identity around 12 when he left the orphanage. What if he did it later??!

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Hmmm, I vaguely remember this exact question from a couple of years back. I don't fully remember the details but I know that Sally came out and said there was some kind of error with the dates that were reported. And in fact, there would have been time for the caller to have seen reports of Marion missing. I'm sorry I can't remember the correct dates.

Also from memory there were varied reports about the search. They went something along the lines of, at first it wasn't followed up at all, but then GS did go and search! Some complain that it was barely done, just a few hours with one dog (not even a cadaver dog) in the rain. And GS of course said it was a very thorough search over several says but not a single thing was found, and the people that lived/owned the property had no link whatsoever to the call.

Sally definitely corrected this theory and said the caller could've definitely seen the articles about Marion. I think it was the tip date that was wrong - it might've been 2008 or 2012. But it also could've been that Sally was speaking to magazines earlier.

Lol, I've gone back to 2020... @Estelle made a lovely post about this exact question - how did the caller know if Marion wasn't publicised as missing? Sally was the one who posted the original question on her Missing Person Marion Barter fb page.

Then @KiwiNZ replied: "I was sure they updated the tip date to 2007 but I can’t find the reference, I will ask on the fb page for them to confirm the date."

I agree... I wish I could find it, but almost certainly, Sally corrected the 2002 tip date to a date after the articles comes out.

Sorry for dredging up old posts! It was around the time we were all talking about Marion's doctor's visits and potential polyps and cancer, heheheee.

 

[Lokii]

Mind blown!!! This could actually work. There has been much discussion the he might not be WW, but the assumption is that he had assumed the WW identity around 12 when he left the orphanage. What if he did it later??!

The WW story he has given just doesn’t ring true to me. Something is very wrong there, none of it adds up.

 

[Lokii]

Lol, I've gone back to 2020... @Estelle made a lovely post about this exact question - how did the caller know if Marion wasn't publicised as missing? Sally was the one who posted the original question on her Missing Person Marion Barter fb page.

And then @KiwiNZ asked: "I was sure they updated the tip date to 2007 but I can’t find the Refrence, maybe I just dreamt it lol, I will ask on the Facebook page for them to confirm the date."

But I concur, I wish I could find it but almost certainly, Sally corrected the 2002 tip date to a date after the articles comes out.

Sorry for dredging up old posts! It was around the time we were all talking about Marion's doctor's visits and potential polyps, heheheee.

Thank you! Much appreciated. I couldn’t recall myself and I couldn’t find any updates about it either. I knew someone here would remember

 

[Lokii]

Mind blown!!! This could actually work. There has been much discussion the he might not be WW, but the assumption is that he had assumed the WW identity around 12 when he left the orphanage. What if he did it later??!

He had no clear memory of the things WW did and where/when. He was very vague when it came to all of his memories of being WW, it was almost as though he couldn’t recall because he wasn’t there, it wasn’t him. But the part that really got me was when he looked genuinely shocked to hear that he had signed the birth certificate with Ilona, and also that he was the official informant. He didn’t dispute it but it looked like he was hearing that for the first time. He was stunned. If you’re interested, watch that part of the inquest again.

 

[Procrastinator]

Mind blown!!! This could actually work. There has been much discussion the he might not be WW, but the assumption is that he had assumed the WW identity around 12 when he left the orphanage. What if he did it later??!

In Day Five of the Inquest (Coroners Court of New South Wales) when DDH is on the stand at the 2hr47min mark she was asked a question about family RB still had in Belgium in the 1970's and she said the only family was Maria Copponelle and Willie Wouters and then quickly said 'ahh not' and changed/corrected herself to answer ... Andre Wouters. Thought it was strange.

 

[KeenSleuth17]

Two possibilities IMO: 1. The call was made by a local who heard of Sally's search in Byron and had genuine info 2. An intentional 'red herring' call.

If it’s a red herring call it’s very coincidental that they’d pick an area (Armidale) in the region of northern NSW of interest, that was, prior to this inquest, unbeknownst to the general public. Follow a main road from Ballina and you’ll get to Grafton, Nymboida, then Armidale.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Thanks to KiwiNZ for the headsup!

The Lady Vanishes Podcast Episode 31 The Inquest Part 11

The Inquest: Part 11

 

[BonnieB]

If it’s a red herring call it’s very coincidental that they’d pick an area (Armidale) in the region of northern NSW of interest, that was, prior to this inquest, unbeknownst to the general public. Follow a main road from Ballina and you’ll get to Grafton, Nymboida, then Armidale.

So, discounting a deliberately misleading call, did the caller see something suspicious near Armidale? IMO we'll probably never know but I do feel it's close to the mark!

 

[KittensAugustus]

In Day Five of the Inquest (Coroners Court of New South Wales) when DDH is on the stand at the 2hr47min mark she was asked a question about family RB still had in Belgium in the 1970's and she said the only family was Maria Copponelle and Willie Wouters and then quickly said 'ahh not' and changed/corrected herself to answer ... Andre Wouters. Thought it was strange.

During RBs testimony he accidentally said 'when I was Janet' and then corrected and said something like 'when I was with Janet'. Not sure it was a slip of the tongue or not.

 

[DK007]

Not at all related to what you’re all currently discussing, but with regards to the phone call that was made to crimestoppers in 2002, police know the address and the landline number that was used to make the call. Police visited the address and there was an elderly couple there. Has that address ever been released to the public?

I just read an old post on the FB page and I can’t recall now whether or not that address has ever been released? I know that Gary Sheehan looked into it all years later, but I’m curious now about that address.
I’ll copy and paste the FB post below -


This occurred to me yesterday!
Mum went missing in 1997 - last known location Grafton Northern NSW
The first magazine article I did was in 2004
Mum was only added to the NSW missing persons register in 2007 (not nationally)
I started the Facebook page - Missing Person Marion Barter in 2013

SO! How did the person who called Crime Stoppers in 2002 who said “a woman by the name Marion who went missing from Northern NSW was buried in bush land in Armidale” know she was missing?

If the case wasn’t publicized till 2004 how the hell did he know that a Marion was missing and last known to be at Grafton Northern NSW????????????????????????????
The said location in Armidale that the male gave to Crime Stoppers 100% needs to fully searched including SES and volunteers happy to help!
To think Det. Gary Sheehan found it on her file years later in 2010 and no one had previously acted on it! On my stars..... no words

I recall in the inquest RB mentioning he would frequently use public telephone booths to make and receive calls.. I wonder if RB is responsible for making this call to crime stoppers from a telephone booth ?

 

[ruby925]

Thank you for this, I am adding it to my timeline:

Dec 1969 – WW claims he met DW in a hotel before boarding Chusan
Jan-Mar 1970 –DW claims she meet WW aboard the Chusan sailing Southampton to Sydney
late 1970 – At inquest, WW changed his story that the Chusan was due to leave but was postponed
early 1971 – And so he met DW on the Chusan when it finally set sailed.

Imagine not having a clear memory of when you arrived in Aus for the first time and meeting you wife for the first time on the same trip!

So i am one of those 'people' that think the Chusan sailing actually happened, in 1971, shame there are no arrival records for the first half of 1971 on the NAA website to confirm the Walkers' journey. I also think WW may have travelled under a different name (how unusual...), as he called it 'a round trip' at the inquest, I am also wondering whether he was employed on the ship..poss on the run..poss rich pickings etc

 

[gymtonic]

Mind blown!!! This could actually work. There has been much discussion the he might not be WW, but the assumption is that he had assumed the WW identity around 12 when he left the orphanage. What if he did it later??!

Well, this maybe fits with what I was saying in previous posts about (IMO) handwriting differences (especially the 7s) on the initial arrival card (WW) and subsequent arrival and departure cards (deH). As I said I am no expert but the are certain features that can be very specific to Anyone with a French schooling that appear in handwriting. I would love a handwriting expert’s view about whether they are written by the same person. Another podcast submitted registration cards to an expert (the cards used different names, birth places, nationality and DOBs) and the expert concluded that they were written by the same person - even the one card that looked outrageously different was shown to be an attempt the disguise the handwriting!

 

[gymtonic]

A couple of things are driving me nuts.

If WW flies out with IK to gain his residency and is staying with IK for the time needed to get resident status and then they both head home together - now 'not married' - would it be conceivable that given WW needs an Aust Residency and IK is also wanting to eventually settle in Aust and is here to find work to help pay for her family to come out, that is why they came over together? ( Her not realising until she is here that she is pregnant so that puts a spanner in the works maybe!)

WW offers to 'chaperone' her helping to set up ( more to set himself up!)
And that they knew each other through IK brother??
Maybe WW and the brother worked together ? ( I just love that he puts Euro Manager as work ) He has never left that job it seems!

As someone pointed out, he states on his application for aust res, that he was living with IK parents address from 1967 to 1969

Just info re the “Euro Manager” (sic)…on the document I saw it was listed as Euro Ménager and I believe this would have been the name of a shop/ store selling household goods, as “ménager” means household. To me it looked as though he worked at that shop.
On the first arrival card he lists the usual occupation as Company Director (it is difficult to read but I believe it says “adm. de sociétés” in other words “administrateur de sociétés” or in English Company Director.

 

[Pineconemind]

Where is the evidence that IK had a brother? I must have missed that.

This is what I can see in IK's NAA file.

 

[Pineconemind]

I haven’t delved into the RB/IK relationship but if she died in a violent accident such as a car crash wouldn’t there be a news article of it at the time?

I thought this too, but havent had any luck finding anything as yet.

 

[Pineconemind]

Forgive me, I may be missing something, but where does it say Ilona knew MJR from before arriving in Aus?

The timeline looks as though IK married WW, had marital relations and got pregnant.
We also don't know if the baby was born early.
Or if it was born in Jan.
We assume it would be at least two weeks old before flying, but it could've been born in Feb).

Timeline
10 May 1969 – IK WW allegedly marry in Belgium
22 May 1969 – IK arrives Aus, Sydney (single yet married and possibly pregnant?)
Jan 1970 – WW and IK have baby (1)
15 Feb 1979 – WW IK depart Aus with baby, status divorced

Another very simply theory is that IK accidentally got knocked up in Belgium as a single woman. As many women did in that unfortunate position at the time, she had to hurry and marry before she began to show. And WW came along at just the right time in her vulnerable life. But if I do the math correctly, it still seems most plausible that the baby was from matrimony to WW.

I think this too!

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

Mind blown!!! This could actually work. There has been much discussion the he might not be WW, but the assumption is that he had assumed the WW identity around 12 when he left the orphanage. What if he did it later??!

Definitely possible.. and unfortunately we can’t find all of Chusan passenger lists to confirm they were actually on the ship.. in 1970… or ever

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

Is it possible WW committed bigamy with IK and DdeH? And this is why covering the beginning tracks of his marriage to DdeH is so important.