Found Deceased Australia - Russell Hill, 74, & Carol Clay, 72, Wonnangatta Valley, 20 Mar 2020 #6 *charges*

[5W's]

Yes. It is a commonly used method of intimidation in domestic violence.

I've uploaded an informative diagram on the methods of control domestic violence perpetrators use.

The part about harming pets is under the 'INTIMIDATION' heading.

I'm hoping WS mods allow it as it is good to know the signs so that we may possibly help someone and as the GL RH CC case is beginning to show, perhaps even murder could be prevented.

I have to point out that yes domestic violence abusers can be serial killers also, but often times serial killers kill and hurt animals so the two should be differenciated and serial killers can be females also. Plus domestic violence abusers can be rehabilitated but I've read that serial killers cannot. I will have to find where I've read this. So, all I'm saying is some things are not preventable and thus should be distinguished for what they really are even if it is a terrifying concept.

 

[5W's]

We have been gaming this out (me, a couple of friends and my young friend who is studying Criminology). Our consensus on this is that whatever led the person to kill Mr Hill and Ms Clay (their motive), once done, the person then settled on a course of action and carried it out in a more or less methodical manner. However, and this is the bit we spent most time on, why do what he did? Why not wait? The thinking was that most people likely leave the valley on a Sunday evening or Monday morning. Leaving on the Saturday, especially in the dead of night, is unusual and likely to get yourself noticed. Moreover, he had a covered trailer and sleeping bags, so there was no difficulty concealing the bodies in the trailer. If there was blood in the tent, then simply pack it up and put it into the trailer, so all that is left is the 4WD. He had the keys. So, he could have driven it up one of the roads exiting the valley and rolled it down into a gully. [The risk here is he leaves DNA in the vehicle; but he may have done that in any case. So, its safer to leave the vehicle, where it is and allow police to think Mr Hill and Ms Clay had wandered into the bush.]
Setting the fire to the tent only drew suspicion. Although Mr Hill missed the arranged 21 and 22 call, the concern was not raised until Monday, the 23rd of March. But with a deserted campsite, and absolutely nothing there, it simply looked as if they had gone somewhere....
So, our conclusion was that after the killing, the person who did it did not think it through very clearly; this suggests that they are quite good at selecting an effective way to a goal, but not the goal that best advances their interest (in this case, avoiding detection).

Thinking I've done it before and haven't got caught so I won't again. Possibly?

 

[OwlHeart]

You (is what I meant not I) have to point out that yes domestic violence abusers can be serial killers also, but often times serial killers kill and hurt animals so the two should be differenciated and serial killers can be females also. Plus domestic violence abusers can be rehabilitated but I've read that serial killers cannot. I will have to find where I've read this. So, all I'm saying is some things are not preventable.

The first wife of GL seems to have been driven to suicide by the suffering he caused her, definitely something preventable and as for the Serial killer theory, I wasn't really responding to that, more so,

a) thinking that if perhaps GL had been charged with domestic violence offences he would have lost his freedom before RH and CC had their lives taken

and,

b) wanting my fellow sleuths to view the diagram because it's informative and in Australia especially - where I and many other WS members reside - we have one of the highest numbers of women killed each year as a result of domestic violence.
(mainly from current or ex-partners although DV is not restricted to partners - fathers, sons etc also count as domestic perpetrators) so it's important to be informed about what the signs of DV are.

But you're enthusiasm is good and you mind is certainly a well-oiled machine @5W's EDIT: women can be DV perpetrators too, although statistically it's usually men.

We can note the average size and strength difference between the two genders as the main reason DV is a male dominated crime but there are many other factors which contribute, the discussion of which is not appropriate on this forum.

 

[5W's]

The first wife of GL seems to have been driven to suicide by the suffering he caused her, definitely something preventable and as for the Serial killer theory, I wasn't really responding to that, more so,

a) thinking that if perhaps GL had been charged with domestic violence offences he would have lost his freedom before RH and CC had their lives taken

and,

b) wanting my fellow sleuths to view the diagram because it's informative and in Australia especially - where I and many other WS members reside - we have one of the highest numbers of women killed each year as a result of domestic violence.
(mainly from current or ex-partners although DV is not restricted to partners - fathers, sons etc also count as domestic perpetrators) so it's important to be informed about what the signs of DV are.

But you're enthusiasm is good and you mind is certainly a well-oiled machine @5W's EDIT: women can be DV perpetrators too, although statistically it's usually men.

We can note the average size and strength difference between the two genders as the main reason DV is a male dominated crime but there are many other factors which contribute, the discussion of which is not appropriate on this forum.

Unfortunately DV is a problem everywhere in the world.

 

[george-X]

Your quote here reminded me of something. I will have to go back and find it but Conrad Whitlock was being spoken about in the posts I saw and in the post the person was saying Conrad Whitlock shouldn't be included in the list of persons missing under odd circumstances in the high country around where RH/CC went missing (I believe of this list.) I imagined a scenario where Conrad could have been lured by a staged event on the road or the side of the road. When his car was found the door was open with his belongings inside. It was dark at the time, so not like others are on the road.

Hard to explain Conrad leaving home at 3am though, and Buller cameras would have picked up any other vehicle going through at that quietier time 1 hr before skiers.

 

[5W's]

I dont think the blue tarp belonged to Russell. I think it may have been used by the police to arrange the artifacts from the burnt out campsite so nothing got lost. MOO
I did not see any deer carcasses in any of the trips I have made into the valley mainly because I didnt venture into the bush area on the east side of the river where a lot of the deer hunting goes on. I would not expect too many deer to be shot in the open country in the bottom of the valley, and if they were they would be cleaned up by the shooters as it the right thing to do. Other campers in the area would not like having a deer carcass on the door step.
The rope on top of the canopy is not part of his antenna. The antenna was a 40m long piece of wire with a feed line attached in the center. I think they are ropes used to tie to the top of the tent poles on the awning of the tent that was quite close to the passenger side of the vehicle. You can see the end near the back of the cabin is quite blackened. If you find the picture from the passenger side of the vehicle you can see a small piece of burnt rope tied to the hitching rail of the canopy. This lines up pretty well with where one of the tent poles on the awning would have been. MOO

Edit: forgot to mention the drum. It was a 20l Castrol oil drum with the top cut off and a square taken out of the side. It was used as a windbreak for a single burner stove on top of a gas bottle. The square was to gain access to the gas control on the burner. Russell used this many times when I camped with him mainly to boil water for tea /coffee or washing up etc. He also had a 2 burner gas camping stove he would set up in the side of the canopy to cook on. Never cooked in the tent.

Edit 2: here is the pic attached

Thanks now I see how possibly the fire or burnt markings on Russell's truck came about. So the tent attachment or rope was tied to the top of Russell's truck with the rope or attachment from the top of Russell's truck. I always wondered how thos markings came to be. Thanks.

 

[5W's]

Hard to explain Conrad leaving home at 3am though, and Buller cameras would have picked up any other vehicle going through at that quietier time 1 hr before skiers.

Possibly be camping at another location so LE doesnt focus on vehicles coming in and out of that particular area. And staged event happened to be at this spot where Conrad's car was found IMO. Although Conrad leaving at 3AM is hard to explain. Maybe the tests related to his health that he was going to have done were stressing him out so he decides to go out for a drive to clear his mind maybe lookat the snow to calm his nerves get a bite to eat but something happened along the way like I mentioned a staged event.

 

[Alicia__elizabeth]

This is so sad. The whole situation, poor Lisa. And I hope you find the book. Alicia this is in reference to Lisa I wanted to ask you if you could give us a brief indication of GL's rlationship history. Meaning was he married 3 times or two? In Doha was he married to the woman who fell off the balcony? The Australian woman who he had a baby with is that the same woman who was with him in Doha. I find the sequence of these tragedies deeply disturbing. Once can be considered a one off but reoccuring tragedies there's something not right. The girlfriend he allegedly left Lisa for was the relationship strained with that girlfriend also? Is she the same person who fell off the balcony or is she a different woman?

I don't really know much about anything after GL moved to Doha. So I can't speak on a wife over there or what may have happened.

He was with the lady after Lisa for approx 2 years I think. She was very upset when he left her and their daughter in SA and moved back to Vic. This is not the same lady he was with in Doha. I'm not sure if their relationship was strained but I would assume so as they had a baby together and then he left her.

 

[CyberHound]

I don't believe the line about other pilots refusing to leave the flight deck when GL was on duty. More likely that was spun to placate the general public into believing nobody subsequently charged with a double murder could have been alone at the controls. Entirely post facto. The industry closing ranks.

 

[BrumbyJack]

They didn’t need that sort of technology. Like many of us who are familiar with that particular camera, it’s capabilities and it’s primary use have said, it is there specifically to capture clear images of your number plates.

It’s a privately owned camera, owned and operated by the Hotham Resort to monitor who enters and leaves the area, as the road passes through the resort which is private property. If you even stop to take a leak, they will know, because they match it to the time you exit on the Omeo side (camera on that side also captures clear images of your number plate). If you stop in the resort area for any reason, and haven’t paid the entry fee, they track you down and send you an invoice if it’s during snow season. They gave the captured images of all vehicles entering and leaving to the police to assist their investigation.

LE could have technology to enhance the plate so even as you mentioned its not visible but were able to get it using other technology without having ANPR in a remote area. It was probably a method to make the individual uncomfortable and make a mistake as LE already knew. Like the swirly face pedophile. He tried to hide his image but LE was able to decipher the image. Good on LE.

 

[Alicia__elizabeth]

OMG! How horrible. I'm glad you were alright and nothing happened, but I suspect you may have been afraid. I'm so sorry for your fear. So sad.

Not afraid. It was a very confusing time and I was only 17. On one side I had Lisa's family who truly believe she didn't commit suicide and the other side was the documented cause of death and GL. I didn't know what to believe.

GL was mostly very nice to me but now I see how manipulative he was. He is a highly intelligent, very charming person.

 

[CyberHound]

Tying together the death of 1 or 2 wives/GF and the disappearance of Clay and Hill would seem to suggest multiple modus operandi, 2 0r 3 to be precise.

 

[5W's]

I don’t think GL fits the SK pattern IMO.
A serial killer isn’t just someone who has killed 3 times at least. SK killings fit a pattern - some trauma or event in the SK’s life which they repeat over and over to gain pleasure from revenge, or exorcise demons whatever you will. Hence the term “serial killing.”
The victims are often a particular type related to this past event i.e. women who look like his mother etc. I say his because SKs are almost exclusively men. Some women have been known but it’s a small percentage.
The killings have a particular M.O., plus a ‘signature’ often left by the killer, e.g. blue scarf, particular knife pattern on the body, related to the event which is being recreated.
People can kill many times, but not be categorised as serial killers. Spree shooters, mass murderers etc would be examples. Some people kill to cover up a crime, which may involve killing multiple victims.

Some killers are just unpleasant, aggressive, possibly violent people who attack anyone in their way or who go against their wishes, or who just piss them off on a bad day.

ETA for subjudice.

Some interesting points to note here because technology is advanced than it was years ago today's SK's are aware of that they can get caught unless their attitude is if I haven't been caught until now so I won't be. As I mentioned here technology being advanced now there are more mass shootings or killings at one time than there were before the advances and we don't hear about SK's much anymore because they will not want to get caught. In another post someone quoted data to show this. Today SK's will be sophisticated enough to make it look like accidents or unknown causes for the death, maybe take advantage of opportunity.

 

[5W's]

Not afraid. It was a very confusing time and I was only 17. On one side I had Lisa's family who truly believe she didn't commit suicide and the other side was the documented cause of death and GL. I didn't know what to believe.

GL was mostly very nice to me but now I see how manipulative he was. He is a highly intelligent, very charming person.

I just posted in post 354 about something similar to what you just said regarding Lisa and when its hard to pinpoint a cause of death then LE is going to go with what they have in terms of evdence so who really knows if Lisa was forced to take her life (I think you said overdose). Or as the officials say it was her. Who is to say she wasn't forced to do the overdose or someone could have tampered with what she overdosed on like putting it in food or drink. Officials will say it was pallatable for her to overdose in this manner with food and/or water. Again if that happened as I just stated here is another example of the uncertainty and an SK doing something like this. Is it an accident an overdose by her or is it murder. Officially we know but what really happened behind the scenes. LE wasn't there so they can't say as aresult it has to based based on what they found. And that's how one would get away saying its accidental.

 

[5W's]

They didn’t need that sort of technology. Like many of us who are familiar with that particular camera, it’s capabilities and it’s primary use have said, it is there specifically to capture clear images of your number plates.

It’s a privately owned camera, owned and operated by the Hotham Resort to monitor who enters and leaves the area, as the road passes through the resort which is private property. If you even stop to take a leak, they will know, because they match it to the time you exit on the Omeo side (camera on that side also captures clear images of your number plate). If you stop in the resort area for any reason, and haven’t paid the entry fee, they track you down and send you an invoice if it’s during snow season. They gave the captured images of all vehicles entering and leaving to the police to assist their investigation.

If one is in the bush they can be anywhere they don't need a vehicle.

 

[5W's]

I don't really know much about anything after GL moved to Doha. So I can't speak on a wife over there or what may have happened.

He was with the lady after Lisa for approx 2 years I think. She was very upset when he left her and their daughter in SA and moved back to Vic. This is not the same lady he was with in Doha. I'm not sure if their relationship was strained but I would assume so as they had a baby together and then he left her.

For my own personal questions I would like to know what happened in Doha, sounds like she survived the fall from the balcony. But I could be wrong. If she died what did the investigation find?

 

[Red Dog]

Not afraid. It was a very confusing time and I was only 17. On one side I had Lisa's family who truly believe she didn't commit suicide and the other side was the documented cause of death and GL. I didn't know what to believe.

GL was mostly very nice to me but now I see how manipulative he was. He is a highly intelligent, very charming person.

This is the most terrifying thing about people who kill and commit other unspeakable crimes, though, isn't it... They DO hide in plain sight. They often ARE charming, or can be when they choose to wear the mask. Master gaslighters.

I mean, how many DV perpetrators get away with it because those who "know" them say they're just so lovely they could never hurt someone? I always trust the slightest glimpse of a bad gut feeling about someone's true nature, but I also know that one of the worst "monsters" - that I know about, at least - in my orbit, was someone seemingly wonderful, kind, caring, a pillar of the community. Free to walk among us and continue wearing that mask. And then there are the lovebombers who play other intelligent people like a game until they are trapped, gaslit and at their mercy.

There are lots of evil people in the world. Some let the cracks show occasionally. Others don't, until they get caught.

 

[BrumbyJack]

If one is in the bush they can be anywhere they don't need a vehicle.

Sorry, I’m not sure what you mean by that?

 

[mrjitty]

Those cameras are specifically to record registration plates for entry to the resort. See here under purchasing & infringements.
Resort Entry | Hotham Holidays

They knew. The picture is grainy on purpose and the release of it was to put the pressure on. IMO of course.

This was my understanding of the article about the "trap" police set that was posted in a previous thread.

They must have known already who owned the vehicle, and had him under surveillance.

I wonder when he got the vehicle repainted?

 

[mrjitty]

This was my understanding of the article about the "trap" police set that was posted in a previous thread.

They must have known already who owned the vehicle, and had him under surveillance.

I wonder when he got the vehicle repainted?

OK - helps to read more articles

Police had already interviewed him, so I am guessing once the CCTV turned up, they knew immediately who the driver was with or without rego - but seems clear they did in fact have rego and released a deliberately poor picture for an audience of 1??

From that point Lynn became a person of interest. Police have not revealed if the cameras captured the vehicle’s number plate, but his details had already been logged on the investigators’ database, as he had been interviewed months before.

Their working theory was a regular camper in the area became annoyed with Hill, possibly because he was flying his drone, there was a confrontation resulting in an assault and then the offender killed Hill, 74, and Clay, 73, so he would not be reported to police. The 60 Minutes special was heavily promoted in the days before it aired, with police hoping Lynn would watch the program.

Lynn certainly became aware of the content and for the first time he knew he was a suspect.

The few people who were close to him started to ask what had happened to his trailer.

Russell Hill, Carol Clay disappearance: Mystery swirls around accused killer Greg Lynn