Australia - Russell Hill & Carol Clay Murdered While Camping - Wonnangatta Valley, 2020 #7

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Meh, people clean their crime scenes all the time, just because they're trying not to spend the rest of their life in jail doesn't make them cold and calculating.

I'm not trying to say he isn't cold, I just find it interesting that he made sure everyone including the jury got several glimpses of his human weakness. Petty retaliation, openly owning up to and admitting his mistakes now he's been caught, the vomiting, it's all language designed to humanise him.

This article touches on it. You've probably noticed the changes in language it talks about.


I made a post about the knife. I've seen a lot of stabbings and people falling onto their own knife absolutely happens.

Yes, it is designed to 'humanise' him. But I don't think it will work.
Just like his 'sorry for your loss' to the families. Sorry that I burned them into nothingness. Sorry that I stole Russell's $40 on top of everything else.

The only reason that he burned them so thoroughly, chucking extra wood on the fire when the fire died down, making sure they were obliterated, was to cover up the fact that he murdered them.

Russell probably wasn't even stabbed. He was probably shot too.

imo
 
I wish transcripts were allowed. There are many questions I would have put to GL that haven't been published. Hopefully things will look brighter after closing arguments.

I wish the cases were streamed. I'd even settle for just audio.

I wish all high profile cases were streamed and I too would settle for audio only. We don't even get tweets. I take the view that if the public are allowed into the courtroom, I can't see why streaming isn't allowed.
 
RE the trailer: so we're told that Lynn ...

(1) listed it on Gumtree as being black, when in fact it was blue -- IMO that was a deliberate ploy to confuse investigators

(2) claims that he sold it to an Asian guy -- I'm thinking that in Lynn's fantasy world an 'Asian' guy (presumably without good English) would not be following the case and therefore would not respond to any police call-outs to anyone who bought a trailer during the period of interest.

How would the purchaser take delivery of the trailer if it didn't have plates?
 
Meh, people clean their crime scenes all the time, just because they're trying not to spend the rest of their life in jail doesn't make them cold and calculating.

You seem to be willing to believe Lynn's story but are also referring to him cleaning the crime scene?

His account is the only crime that was committed was cleaning and destoying the evidence....if you're willing to believe that.
 
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How would the purchaser take delivery of the trailer if it didn't have plates?

Legally it couldn't be towed, but could have been put onto a truck, or onto another trailer.

Or the buyer could obtain a UVP:

You can get an Unregistered Vehicle Permit (UVP) when your vehicle is unregistered and/or it is impractical or unreasonable to have the vehicle registered during the period of the permit. A UVP must not be used as a replacement for full registration and can only be issued for trips commencing in Vic.

We recommend that you purchase an unregistered vehicle permit when taking an unregistered vehicle to VicRoads for registration. This ensures that you have full compulsory insurance cover for that trip
.

Or the buyer could have risked it and towed it without plates.

However, I don't buy Lynn's story.
 
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You seem to be willing to believe Lynn's story but are also referring to him cleaning the crime scene?

His account is the only crime that was committed was cleaning and destoying the evidence....if you're willing to believe that.

Parts of it ring true, others don't. All good lies have some truth to them.

One thing I noticed Lynn said was that he burnt the grass around where carol fell because there was alot of blood. If you look at the photos there is a patch of burnt grass next to the car, away from the tent fire, under the canopy and if they fought at the front of the car a bullet could have travelled through the mirror and hit her.

From what I've seen from the trial the prosecution are far from proving murderous intent, they have no bodies to go off, nothing to show how they were killed, where or why, the scenarios they've put forward are at their base, 100% imagined by them and if I was in a Jury I would be conscious of that fact because the only person in that courtroom that knows what happened is Lynn.

When you know that the police don't know if the argument they're putting forward is accurate, It certainly counts against them. That's how I view it at least. I'm surprised people don't seem to recognise how the police knowing so little really makes it hard for them to prove 'beyond a reasonable doubt'.

Also, yes people can accidentally kill someone, clean a crime scene and not be a cold, heartless, psychopath. People are far more complicated than it being that simple.

I don't mean to be here defending him, I just don't think the police case is as strong as people seem to think.
 
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How would the purchaser take delivery of the trailer if it didn't have plates?
I'm not sure what size the trailer was, but small sized trailers don't need their own registration. This is from the VicRoads website.

Can my trailer be exempt from registration?
If you’ve got a light trailer (other than a trailer specifically built to carry a boat) it will be exempt from registration in Victoria if it:
weighs less (tare mass) than 200kg unladen
isn’t wider than the towing vehicle
is 3 metres or less in length, including the draw-bar
isn’t used for business.
You can still choose to register your trailer if it’s exempt from registration. If it’s exempt and not registered, it needs to show the same registration number as the towing vehicle or you can buy an exempt trailer plate.
 
If it’s exempt and not registered, it needs to show the same registration number as the towing vehicle or you can buy an exempt trailer plate.

Interesting. Most state governments will happily tax anything that moves and many things that don't.

I wonder if it was registered when used by Lynn?
 
Parts of it ring true, others don't. All good lies have some truth to them.

One thing I noticed Lynn said was that he burnt the grass around where carol fell because there was alot of blood. If you look at the photos there is a patch of burnt grass next to the car, away from the tent fire, under the canopy and if they fought at the front of the car a bullet would travel through the mirror to hit her.

From what I've seen from the trial the prosecution are far from proving murderous intent, they have no bodies to go off, nothing to show how they were killed, where, why, the scenarios they've put forward are at their base, 100% imagined by them and if I was in a Jury I would be conscious of that fact because the only person in that courtroom that knows what happened is Lynn.

When you know that the police don't know if the argument they're putting forward is accurate, It certainly counts against them. That's how I view it at least. I'm surprised people don't seem to recognise how the police knowing so little really makes it hard for them to prove 'beyond a reasonable doubt'.

Also, yes people can accidentally kill someone, clean a crime scene and not be a cold, heartless, psychopath. People are far more complicated than you're giving them credit for.

I think what a lot of people seem to be beyond reasonable doubt with is believing Lynn’s story itself.
If two people (who neither want Carol killed) were wrestling over a gun, that was loaded and cocked, having the barrel randomnly pointing in the direction of Carol is an extremely small probability in the first place. Then Russell's own finger pulling the trigger with a 4kg force, and the projectile ricocheting and killing Carol.

It's these and more points such as the guy rope being in the way.
That Russell had no problem loading a magazine on a gun he's never seen before and is by the evidence against guns.

If you believe all this sounds like a concocted lie, then what other scenario could there be apart from Lynn intentionally killing her? Can you think of another scenario?

The prosecution are relying on the jury to see this logical inference, I'd imagine. We'll see in their closing argument.

Yes, I think you're definitely correct here to say that good lies can also contain elements of truth. It's quite possible he did open the car doors and turn up his music, for example.

Regarding the burnt grass and cleaning the blood, can't this also work if he acted with murderous intent?
 
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Parts of it ring true, others don't. All good lies have some truth to them.

One thing I noticed Lynn said was that he burnt the grass around where carol fell because there was alot of blood. If you look at the photos there is a patch of burnt grass next to the car, away from the tent fire, under the canopy and if they fought at the front of the car a bullet could have travelled through the mirror and hit her.

From what I've seen from the trial the prosecution are far from proving murderous intent, they have no bodies to go off, nothing to show how they were killed, where or why, the scenarios they've put forward are at their base, 100% imagined by them and if I was in a Jury I would be conscious of that fact because the only person in that courtroom that knows what happened is Lynn.

When you know that the police don't know if the argument they're putting forward is accurate, It certainly counts against them. That's how I view it at least. I'm surprised people don't seem to recognise how the police knowing so little really makes it hard for them to prove 'beyond a reasonable doubt'.

Also, yes people can accidentally kill someone, clean a crime scene and not be a cold, heartless, psychopath. People are far more complicated than it being that simple.

I don't mean to be here defending him, I just don't think the police case is as strong as people seem to think.

I find this take to be quite at odds with how evidence works in a criminal trial.

Why should Lynns story be believed by the Jury? If they don't believe it, the only natural and obvious inference is he murdered them - based on all the evidence.

I don't think the defence is anywhere close to establishing reasonable doubt but who knows.

MOO
 
Parts of it ring true, others don't. All good lies have some truth to them.

One thing I noticed Lynn said was that he burnt the grass around where carol fell because there was alot of blood. If you look at the photos there is a patch of burnt grass next to the car, away from the tent fire, under the canopy and if they fought at the front of the car a bullet could have travelled through the mirror and hit her.

From what I've seen from the trial the prosecution are far from proving murderous intent, they have no bodies to go off, nothing to show how they were killed, where or why, the scenarios they've put forward are at their base, 100% imagined by them and if I was in a Jury I would be conscious of that fact because the only person in that courtroom that knows what happened is Lynn.

When you know that the police don't know if the argument they're putting forward is accurate, It certainly counts against them. That's how I view it at least. I'm surprised people don't seem to recognise how the police knowing so little really makes it hard for them to prove 'beyond a reasonable doubt'.

Also, yes people can accidentally kill someone, clean a crime scene and not be a cold, heartless, psychopath. People are far more complicated than it being that simple.

I don't mean to be here defending him, I just don't think the police case is as strong as people seem to think.
You know what I couldn’t do what he did to a mouse.
 
I think what a lot of people seem to be beyond reasonable doubt with is believing Lynn’s story itself.
If two people (who neither want Carol killed) were wrestling over a gun, that was loaded and cocked, having the barrel randomnly pointing in the direction of Carol is an extremely small probability in the first place. Then Russell's own finger pulling the trigger with a 4kg force, and the projectile ricocheting and killing Carol.

It's these and more points such as the guy rope being in the way.
That Russell had no problem loading a magazine on a gun he's never seen before and is by the evidence against guns.

If you believe all this sounds like a concocted lie, then what other scenario could there be apart from Lynn intentionally killing her? Can you think of another scenario?

The prosecution are relying on the jury to see this logical inference, I'd imagine. We'll see in their closing argument.

Regarding the burnt grass and cleaning the blood, can't this also work if he acted with murderous intent?

We don't see much here because we don't have as many guns but people manage to kill themselves or a friend by accident in America with guns in all sorts of ways, it could definitely go off with 2 people wrestling over it. I wonder how light or heavy Lynns trigger pull was.

He said he hadn't been drinking, I wonder if they could establish a pattern from friends/family about if he would normally drink heavily if he was out camping alone.

Sure, but Carol could have just tripped over the guy rope while walking to the car and asked Russell to move it, or it just didn't get in their way while wrestling, or perhaps it's what caused RH to trip and fall. We just don't know and the police haven't been very convincing.

I don't think It's a lie, but 'there was a guy rope' =/= 'it would have got in the way' is all.

TBH accidental death makes a lot more sense to me than Lynn murdering them. If he's a cold calculating monster, why make such a messy scene? People go missing in the outback all the time and are never found. He's clearly intelligent he would know leaving car etc there, burnt campground would turn into a big mystery. All the arguing about how he cleaned the crime scene forensically and planned disposing of the bodies etc doesn't fit at all with the way they died.

Sure, it could, but people keep saying they think Lynn murdered him in their sleep or in their tent and that piece of evidence does suggest Carol may have been outside, where Lynn said and would fit with the fight and the missing wing mirror.

Unfortunately he simply brings more to the table in terms of explanations than the prosecution which is basically 'this guy killed these 2 and he definitely did it on purpose'. I also note there hasn't been any introduction of electronic evidence from his house like weird google search histories or fetishes which they surely would introduce if it made him seem like a deviant.

I dunno. At the start I definitely believed it was murder, but stranger accidents do happen and people do do the wrong thing and try and cover it up to protect themselves.

The thing that doesn't fit for me is Russell escalating the situation to involve firearms by taking hold of one.
 

Mentions a rope is a reason why Police say it can't have happened the way GL said it did.

Behind a paywall, I think. Posting it here for those who subscribe.
 
Legally it couldn't be towed, but could have been put onto a truck, or onto another trailer.

Or the buyer could obtain a UVP:

You can get an Unregistered Vehicle Permit (UVP) when your vehicle is unregistered and/or it is impractical or unreasonable to have the vehicle registered during the period of the permit. A UVP must not be used as a replacement for full registration and can only be issued for trips commencing in Vic.

We recommend that you purchase an unregistered vehicle permit when taking an unregistered vehicle to VicRoads for registration. This ensures that you have full compulsory insurance cover for that trip
.

Or the buyer could have risked it and towed it without plates.

However, I don't buy Lynn's story.

A trailer rego only costs about $70 (in SA). And no GST! :)
 
His story isn't exactly cold or calculated though. He dumped the bodies, sure, but then he leaves them for a very long time before trying to totally dispose of them which I think is more in line with his story of panicking than being calculated. When he does return and decide to 'end it' they'd be in bad state and I totally believe him vomiting alot while burning them. Whether true or not, saying he vomited shows weakness and that hes aware what he's doing is disgusting and I think that will move the jury away from seeing him as a completely cold monster and more have them thinking 'yeah I would vomit too'.... theres a word for it but it escapes me, but basically they're subconsciously putting themselves in his shoes and connecting with his story and makes GL appear human, not a monster.

I have no idea why he bought up the clubs tbh I thought that was the worst part of his testimony because it does make him sound very shallow and heartless. Unless he's trying to play the 'dumb honest' ploy.
Two words “Occam’s Razor”.
 
We don't see much here because we don't have as many guns but people manage to kill themselves or a friend by accident in America with guns in all sorts of ways, it could definitely go off with 2 people wrestling over it. I wonder how light or heavy Lynns trigger pull was.

Trigger pull on Lynn’s gun - 3.947kg

Sure, but Carol could have just tripped over the guy rope while walking to the car and asked Russell to move it, or it just didn't get in their way while wrestling, or perhaps it's what caused RH to trip and fall. We just don't know and the police haven't been very convincing.

The prosecution are alleging Lynn killed Carol with the gun with intent. That's all.
In this case, there is one point that is a little different to a lot of murder trials. That is that the evidence shows and is a ageed by both sides that Carol died by a gun's bullet to her head. This means there is only 2 possibilities. The prosecution are asking the jury to be beyond reasonable doubt that one of the possibilities is not true.

It's not Lynn’s story that Russell tripped on a guy rope and died, nor is it the prosecution's.
Unfortunately he simply brings more to the table in terms of explanations than the prosecution which is basically 'this guy killed these 2 and he definitely did it on purpose'.

Put simply, that's correct. That's all the prosecution are saying. To my point above, since a lot of the facts are agreed, the prosecution are essentially saying that you can be beyond reasonable that one of the two scenarios is incorrect.
 
We don't see much here because we don't have as many guns but people manage to kill themselves or a friend by accident in America with guns in all sorts of ways, it could definitely go off with 2 people wrestling over it. I wonder how light or heavy Lynns trigger pull was.

It was a heavy trigger pull. Heavier than that weapon usually has. I posted the testimony further back. Will find it again and add it to this post.


It would be difficult for a gun linked to the deaths of campers Russell Hill and Carol Clay to go off accidentally, a forensic police officer has told a double-murder trial.

Griffiths undertook testing on the 12-gauge Barathrum Arms shotgun, taken from Lynn’s home, including a safety function test and trigger pull test, the court heard. A trigger pull test measures the amount of force that has to be applied to the trigger to fire a shot.

Lynn’s trigger pull was 3.9 kilograms, slightly above the industry standard of between 1.8kg and 3.6kg.

“Being higher means [having] to pull [the] trigger harder to discharge the gun,” Griffiths told the court on Tuesday.
Link
 
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