Australia Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, NSW, 12 Sep 2014 - #69

[JBowie]

His foster mother remains on bail and is expected to face Hornsby Local Court on April 29.
William Tyrrell's foster mother charged with stalking, intimidation

Even though they say "face", I wonder if that's going to be just another mention and not a hearing.

 

[JLZ]

It is still confusing why the stalking and intimidation doesn't constitute a breach of the AVO, if the stalking and intimidation is against the same minor child and/or the minor child's 'household'.


However, section 36 of the Crimes (Domestic and Personal Violence) Act 2007 states that every AVO must contain the three following conditions that prohibit the defendant from:

1. Assaulting, threatening, molesting, harassing, or interfering with the protected person;
2. Stalking or threatening the protected person; and
3. Intentionally or recklessly destroying or damaging any property belonging to the protected person.

Apprehended Violence Orders in New South Wales

Possibly there are activities which could qualify as stalking and intimidation which did not breach the specific terms of the AVO?

 

[JBowie]

Possibly there are activities which could qualify as stalking and intimidation which did not breach the specific terms of the AVO?

Sure, if the alleged stalking applied to someone who is not covered by the conditions of an AVO.

 

[JLZ]

Sure, if the alleged stalking applied to someone who is not covered by the conditions of an AVO.

No, that's not what I mean. The AVO would have specific terms saying what the potential offender is not allowed to do. Like, approach the victim's (I don't know the right word) home or school to within a certain distance; telephone. And the offender finds a way around it: "well, you didn't say I couldn't email"; "I was 1 metre outside that boundary and I can prove it!"

Looking at the terms of the offence ( CRIMES (DOMESTIC AND PERSONAL VIOLENCE) ACT 2007 - SECT 13 Stalking or intimidation with intent to cause fear of physical or mental harm ) I see that fear of harm could be fear of harm to someone with whom the victim has a domestic relationship. I wonder, if one of the parents made suicide threats, and the other parent backed it up, would that qualify as intentionally causing the victim to fear physical harm?

I'm not saying that other types of intimidation are improbable.

 

[SLouTh]

It is still confusing why the stalking and intimidation doesn't constitute a breach of the AVO, if the stalking and intimidation is against the same minor child and/or the minor child's 'household'.


However, section 36 of the Crimes (Domestic and Personal Violence) Act 2007 states that every AVO must contain the three following conditions that prohibit the defendant from:

1. Assaulting, threatening, molesting, harassing, or interfering with the protected person;
2. Stalking or threatening the protected person; and
3. Intentionally or recklessly destroying or damaging any property belonging to the protected person.

Apprehended Violence Orders in New South Wales

Unless the alleged stalking happened at a location not initially included in the AVO?

Perhaps the scope of the initial AVO was very narrow?

And then Police felt the behavior that was reported, was actually alleged stalking / intimidation, but wasn't an actual breach of the initial AVO, so they used the Stalking Charge instead?

imo

 

[SouthAussie]

Sure, if the alleged stalking applied to someone who is not covered by the conditions of an AVO.

Which could be possible. If perhaps they approached a child who is known to the minor child in the AVO.

What if they rocked up at the minor child's new home (stalking) and there was another child playing outside at the home, and they asked that child to pass along something to the minor child in the AVO ... a gift, a letter, something else (intimidation).

 

[JLZ]

Which could be possible. If perhaps they approached a child who is known to the minor child in the AVO.

What if they rocked up at the minor child's new home (stalking) and there was another child playing outside at the home, and they asked that child to pass along something to the minor child in the AVO ... a gift, a letter, something else (intimidation).

It's conceivable that the AVO child's place of residence wasn't specified in the AVO because that would be telling the former foster parents her address. (Um, I'm making an assumption about the child's identity, perhaps that hasn't been confirmed.)

Just asking another child to pass something to the AVO child, it's hard to see that as intentionally causing the other child to fear physical harm, unless it was very clumsily and aggressively done: do this for me or else. It might be stalking and intimidation of the AVO child, depending on the message, in a way that wasn't foreseen in the AVO.

 

[bearbear]

maybe the stalking charge is kept separate from breaching the avo, until it can be proven there was stalking? could it be an added charge after/if they are found guilty?

 

[JLZ]

maybe the stalking charge is kept separate from breaching the avo, until it can be proven there was stalking? could it be an added charge after/if they are found guilty?

I don't know if that might be autrefois something-or-other, similar to double jeopardy: trying a person twice over essentially the same facts.

 

[SLouTh]

Police said William's foster mother was seen driving along the road on the morning the boy vanished.

Wondering if this alleged report was in the main case file and was initially missed by Police??? It may have been just a small entry in the file that was possibly overlooked??

Or perhaps, the specifics of this sighting were not adequately investigated back then? (As they knew FM took the drive as per her Video Interview.) Meaning, for Eg the time, or location, etc., etc. not checked out against the FM version??? Until recently....??

Much like the scenario with the note in the case file of Daniel Morcombe, regarding Cowan???

To me, this would make more sense than a witness coming forward 7 years later.......unless of course the person always knew they saw a silver Mazda that day, but didn't know the significance of the said vehicle, so didn't report it, until recently??

Just a theory and all MO

 

[Couldbe]

Wondering if this alleged report was in the main case file and was initially missed by Police??? It may have been just a small entry in the file that was possibly overlooked??

Or perhaps, the specifics of this sighting were not adequately investigated back then? (As they knew FM took the drive as per her Video Interview.) Meaning, for Eg the time, or location, etc., etc. not checked out against the FM version??? Until recently....??

Much like the scenario with the note in the case file of Daniel Morcombe, regarding Cowan???

To me, this would make more sense than a witness coming forward 7 years later.......unless of course the person always knew they saw a silver Mazda that day, but didn't know the significance of the said vehicle, so didn't report it, until recently??

Just a theory and all MO

Has the actual time that FFC drove down Batar Creek Road been made available to the Public?
Following the walkthrough video with FFC, Detective Sergeant Laura Beacroft would surely have asked the question regarding the time of the drive. If that truck driver who FFC said had signalled 'thank you' for her pulling over, had to be tracked down (in the event he may also have been a witness to other sightings), the LE would need to know the time of the encounter. JMO

 

[SLouTh]

Has the actual time that FFC drove down Batar Creek Road been made available to the Public?

Not officially from the Police that I am aware of ??? ........ but others may know more from the Inquest??

 

[nightrider17]

If there was a possibility that the MFC left just after the photo - and because he was running late - he had to leave in a hurry - no long goodbyes. They did indicate that he was close to the MFC.

As a result William becomes distressed and wants to go with the MFC and now has to be restrained by FFC and he becomes more distressed and worked up. A incident may have happened at 9:45 am and the drive down Batar Creek Road happened a lot earlier?? Just hypothesising.

 

[Couldbe]

If there was a possibility that the MFC left just after the photo - and because he was running late - he had to leave in a hurry - no long goodbyes. They did indicate that he was close to the MFC.

As a result William becomes distressed and wants to go with the MFC and now has to be restrained by FFC and he becomes more distressed and worked up. A incident may have happened at 9:45 am and the drive down Batar Creek Road happened a lot earlier?? Just hypothesising.

JMO Yes, but FFC said that when she had driven down there her reason was because she was looking for William.

 

[Travelling Wilbury]

JMO Yes, but FFC said that when she had driven down there her reason was because she was looking for William.

Was there a timeline of how long she was out driving looking for William? Faced with that predicament, I’d imagine you’d start at the house, try the neighbours and the street then go by car to try surrounding areas. But if you couldn’t find him, I’d still be driving around looking everywhere. It’s the fastest way to cover more ground. IMO
But it’d be interesting to hear how long it was she was out for

 

[JBowie]

Have been flipping through Jubelin's book and here are a couple of things, among many, that I had flagged in the margins, and these two relate to recent discussion here:

(1) Regarding the FF's text message sent 5 minutes before arriving back at FGM's house. On page 246: "He [William] liked to wait outside the house when Tom [FF] was driving home from work to welcome him, so the couple [FM and FF] had got into the habit of having Tom send a text just before he arrived, so she could get William ready."

(2) Regarding the possibility of some evidence having been overlooked by police. On page 261: "Nine months after William went missing, there are still over 1600 files on the e@gle.i computer system that are yet to be properly reviewed. Any one of them could contain the sighting of a car, a name, or the few words in a witness statement that we need to grab hold of before it's lost amid the inflow of new evidence and sinks beneath the water again, unnoticed."

 

[Doesitmakesense]

Have been flipping through Jubelin's book and here are a couple of things, among many, that I had flagged in the margins, and these two relate to recent discussion here:

(1) Regarding the FF's text message sent 5 minutes before arriving back at FGM's house. On page 246: "He [William] liked to wait outside the house when Tom [FF] was driving home from work to welcome him, so the couple [FM and FF] had got into the habit of having Tom send a text just before he arrived, so she could get William ready."

(2) Regarding the possibility of some evidence having been overlooked by police. On page 261: "Nine months after William went missing, there are still over 1600 files on the e@gle.i computer system that are yet to be properly reviewed. Any one of them could contain the sighting of a car, a name, or the few words in a witness statement that we need to grab hold of before it's lost amid the inflow of new evidence and sinks beneath the water again, unnoticed."

You would hope by this point all of those files have been reviewed

 

[Serenanicole]

Apparently, #2 only carries a higher penalty if it is tried in a court other than a local court.
I think these charges are being tried in local court (Hornsby).


Stalk or Intimidate
The maximum penalty for committing such an offence is imprisonment for five years or a fine of $5500, or both. However, if dealt with in the Local Court, the maximum penalty is two years’ imprisonment.
Stalk or Intimidate - Streeton Lawyers

Breach of an AVO
If the court finds you guilty then you may be fined up to $5,500 or imprisoned for two years.
Breach of an AVO in New South Wales

His foster mother remains on bail and is expected to face Hornsby Local Court on April 29.
William Tyrrell's foster mother charged with stalking, intimidation

Maybe the stalking charges are in relation to someone else, not the aforementioned child in the alleged assault ?

 

[Serenanicole]

It's conceivable that the AVO child's place of residence wasn't specified in the AVO because that would be telling the former foster parents her address. (Um, I'm making an assumption about the child's identity, perhaps that hasn't been confirmed.)

Just asking another child to pass something to the AVO child, it's hard to see that as intentionally causing the other child to fear physical harm, unless it was very clumsily and aggressively done: do this for me or else. It might be stalking and intimidation of the AVO child, depending on the message, in a way that wasn't foreseen in the AVO.

There is such thing as emotional blackmail

 

[Serenanicole]

Which could be possible. If perhaps they approached a child who is known to the minor child in the AVO.

What if they rocked up at the minor child's new home (stalking) and there was another child playing outside at the home, and they asked that child to pass along something to the minor child in the AVO ... a gift, a letter, something else (intimidation).

I wonder what rights if at all that foster parents may have (after so many years caring for that child) after their foster child is removed to see them at limited and supervised visits? Perhaps the stalking charges relate to a pushing of those restrictions by the FFC/MFC and have been harmful to the new foster family or carers that are looking after the child. In regards to any potential for these rights, perhaps what may be considered is the child wants to see her parents and they would be heartbroken without that child. There may be avenues for visitation, and this may well be where the problems are currently coming from?