Australia Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, NSW, 12 Sep 2014 - #70

[seekingjustice**]

So from the article released today:

"But for some reason he always manages to fill them. And I said are you wet and all that sort of stuff and I said, okay well then you need to go , get up first and you need to get changed first okay and then we know and we can have a cuddle."

It seems to me to be an awfully big responsibility to leave solely to a child rather that at least accompany them and supervise them. For that matter, how did William know where to find his pull ups in a strange environment? And if FF did help him, then it is possible IMO that he dressed him in the Spiderman suit then.

I agree that it seems strange to put that responsibility onto William. The Foster parents have painted him out to be a hyperactive, out of control type child with issues, however they expect him take responsibility for changing his own nappy/pull-ups. If he slept all night in wet pullups or a nappy, surely they would want to give him a shower or bath.

Also, it's interesting how the FF's story of that morning changed, two years later when he said:

"In a later interview, two years after William disappeared, the foster father says William 'woke up and then, you know, he's giggling, he's all over me'."

 

[k-mac]

Yeah K-mac - exactly

Let's not sugar coat-it - Menopause and what's equally challenging - teenagers - now that's a top combination.

 

[Akai]

We don't know that they were not observing at home also. Watching the whole situation. We only know about the 3 supervisors at the last access visit because BM said they followed them around the place.

They had been alerted by FM about William's behaviour. There were issues. We have known that for 7+ years.
I posted a link before where the FACS social workers were putting it down to "a certain amount of dysfunction in foster children" at the time.

Some of us have also wondered if his behaviour (if it was associated with an undiagnosed condition) did lead him to wander off and get irretrievably lost.

I don't recall any testimony at the inquest or any reporting there indicating that they were. Do you? I recall Ben Atwood visiting, but he is a caseworker, not the person qualified to make these assessments. I do not recall any evidence tendered as to William seeing any sort of psychologist or being observed by a psychologist with a view to a diagnosis. I only recall observations when he was seeing his BM. General observations or seeing a psychologist or behavioural specialist, IMO, would have been extremely relevant to any inquest investigating what happened to him, precisely because it, as you point out, would have gone to his behaviour on the day.

The information on the alerts, that we have seen, which you refer to, linked this to access visits (as also per the article today). I see nothing in any of it that suggests that the FM or anyone else was linking it to ADHD or autism or any sort of psychological issue. There is also no mention of seeking support or help or getting William help when FM spoke about "giving up or giving in". https://www.theaustralian.com.au/su...mic-warm-control-score&V21spcbehaviour=append

IMO that FACS put it down to "a certain amount of dysfunction in foster children" (your words, which I accept as I have read them) indicates they were not seeing it as anything worth investigating beyond the standard concept of disruption and relationship to the BP visits. Which is also consistent with them having people at that visit, and IMO further indicates they would not have done anything more comprehensive.

There was nothing mentioned in the judgement or appeal that have been posted here in the prior thread when Ms Smith went to court to get William's foster status revealed. IMO given arguments were made about the stigma William might face about the revelation he was in foster care, matters to do with his psychological health would have been relevant as well.

 

[MsFletcher]

Thanks Slouth, I have never seen that video before.

Here's the direct link House where William Tyrrell spent his final before going missing

Did anyone else notice the gates of the high verandah were open in the walkthrough? Scary to think he might have run onto there and fallen off at the end IMO

 

[JLZ]

So from the article released today:

"But for some reason he always manages to fill them. And I said are you wet and all that sort of stuff and I said, okay well then you need to go , get up first and you need to get changed first okay and then we know and we can have a cuddle."

It seems to me to be an awfully big responsibility to leave solely to a child rather that at least accompany them and supervise them. For that matter, how did William know where to find his pull ups in a strange environment? And if FF did help him, then it is possible IMO that he dressed him in the Spiderman suit then.

There isn't any information about how William got changed. MFC said to him that he needed to get cleaned up and then they could have a cuddle. But does that mean that William managed it all himself? Or did they both get out of bed and attend to it? Or did William go in to FFC and get her assistance before coming back to bed?

 

[JLZ]

Did anyone else notice the gates of the high verandah were open in the walkthrough? Scary to think he might have run onto there and fallen off at the end IMO

Yes, I've thought that if that gate was sometimes open and sometimes shut, William might not have registered the difference between the two ends, and expected the ground to be a few steps down at the high end too. There might have been a pot or a chair there that made climbing over easy.

 

[Akai]

There isn't any information about how William got changed. MFC said to him that he needed to get cleaned up and then they could have a cuddle. But does that mean that William managed it all himself? Or did they both get out of bed and attend to it? Or did William go in to FFC and get her assistance before coming back to bed?

I find the language odd. "You need to go". "You need to get changed first." I would have thought it would have been "We need to get you changed." Certainly that is how I would say it. Either, in the way he is describing it from the actual time: "we need to get you changed" or describing it reflectively: "I needed to get him changed." Language wise IMO it's placing the responsibility on William, whether at the time or simply too the police, and IMO that's very odd.

So, either it was William's responsibility, which IMO is neglectful parenting, especially when he is in an unfamiliar environment. Or the FF did in fact change him and IMO he's concealing something here. Either way I don't think it looks good and it also raises the possibility that William was dressed in his Spiderman suit much earlier either of his own choice or by FF, which would be inconsistent with the story FM has told.

 

[Awakening]

I find the language odd. "You need to go". "You need to get changed first." I would have thought it would have been "We need to get you changed." Certainly that is how I would say it. Either, in the way he is describing it from the actual time: "we need to get you changed" or describing it reflectively: "I needed to get him changed." Language wise IMO it's placing the responsibility on William, whether at the time or simply too the police, and IMO that's very odd.

So, either it was William's responsibility, which IMO is neglectful parenting, especially when he is in an unfamiliar environment. Or the FF did in fact change him and IMO he's concealing something here. Either way I don't think it looks good and it also raises the possibility that William was dressed in his Spiderman suit much earlier either of his own choice or by FF, which would be inconsistent with the story FM has told.

Or the Spiderman outfit were pyjamas. WT could dispose of his pullup and pull his pyjama bottoms back up.

 

[Akai]

Or the Spiderman outfit were pyjamas. WT could dispose of his pullup and pull his pyjama bottoms back up.

Yes, I thought they could be pyjamas or, at least, have doubled as pyjamas and been worn the night before.

 

[JLZ]

Or the Spiderman outfit were pyjamas. WT could dispose of his pullup and pull his pyjama bottoms back up.

Does he know where to dispose of his pullup in FGM's house? What if he isn't just wet?

 

[MsFletcher]

I wonder when this video was taken?

Must have been after the washing machine was repaired because there's washing flapping on the line and it looks like the Foster carers were still there (by the messy beds with kids items), so within a week of William going missing I'd say.

 

[InFocus]

Interesting to see the DM release FGM walk through today.

Again some conflicting comments made in that video which add to the confusion of this whole case.
I mentioned on here several years ago that I've felt the deck photos are key to unlocking the mystery. Mr. Craddock SC was quite confident in his opening statements at the inquest that proof of life was 9;37am. However, as we now know, following the legal representatives for the bio family they questioned the time stamps, resulting in the coroner asking for the photo metadata to be reviewed. To this day there has NEVER been any official confirmation from the inquest nor task force on the validity of 9:37am adjusted time.

Food for thought coming back to the walk through video is that the FGM version does have everyone up by 7:30am and active. It's still very plausible that the photos were taken at 7:37am. The issue I have with them being taken at 9:37am I find that time is not on the side of the FFC and FGM to have covered anything up in such a short space of time. However, certainly 7:37am changes everything. Not forgetting the evidence provided by RD from the tennis centre regarding an alleged phone call he overheard to WH and his departure from the courts before 10am.

Interesting times ahead I feel, momentum seems to have shifted in the case. Whether there's an outcome, is the still $1,000,000 question.

 

[MsFletcher]

Yes, I thought they could be pyjamas or, at least, have doubled as pyjamas and been worn the night before.

That actually makes sense. In the images on the patio, it looks like Williams sister is wearing pj's too.

 

[SouthAussie]

Or the Spiderman outfit were pyjamas. WT could dispose of his pullup and pull his pyjama bottoms back up.

They might (or might not) have been pyjamas, but FM was involved in dressing him.
She wanted him to put a singlet on, but William didn't want a singlet. He agreed on a spiderman t-shirt under the spiderman suit.

 

[Green beans]

Interesting to see the DM release FGM walk through today.

Again some conflicting comments made in that video which add to the confusion of this whole case.
I mentioned on here several years ago that I've felt the deck photos are key to unlocking the mystery. Mr. Craddock SC was quite confident in his opening statements at the inquest that proof of life was 9;37am. However, as we now know, following the legal representatives for the bio family they questioned the time stamps, resulting in the coroner asking for the photo metadata to be reviewed. To this day there has NEVER been any official confirmation from the inquest nor task force on the validity of 9:37am adjusted time.

Food for thought coming back to the walk through video is that the FGM version does have everyone up by 7:30am and active. It's still very plausible that the photos were taken at 7:37am. The issue I have with them being taken at 9:37am I find that time is not on the side of the FFC and FGM to have covered anything up in such a short space of time. However, certainly 7:37am changes everything. Not forgetting the evidence provided by RD from the tennis centre regarding an alleged phone call he overheard to WH and his departure from the courts before 10am.

Interesting times ahead I feel, momentum seems to have shifted in the case. Whether there's an outcome, is the still $1,000,000 question.

FGM’s voice wobbles at saying 8am .. I am interested the findings of the photos time stamps

 

[bearbear]

aggression, clinginess, bed and pant wetting,etc can also be signs of sexual abuse in children, his bio mother said he was clingy on his last visit, just trying to understand why a small boy would be aggressive and not bonding with a long term female carer?
was there a lot of arguing between fcs or aggression or were they overly harsh with him? he was still a baby, little boys love cuddles and being silly, i feel so sad for him and what his short little life may have been

 

[Akai]

They might (or might not) have been pyjamas, but FM was involved in dressing him.
She wanted him to put a singlet on, but William didn't want a singlet. He agreed on a spiderman t-shirt under the spiderman suit.

FM says she was involved in dressing him. Personally, with the fact that she has been charged with giving false & misleading evidence, the revelations that have come out today indicating that there were a lot of issues, which were repeatedly hidden in interviews and other statements, and the indications by FF that he was wet when he woke up and at least something was done then, I don't think anything she says is reliable.

 

[bearbear]

They might (or might not) have been pyjamas, but FM was involved in dressing him.
She wanted him to put a singlet on, but William didn't want a singlet. He agreed on a spiderman t-shirt under the spiderman suit.

is any of this true though, everything we hear is what ffc has said in her happy family picture painting, and there is nobody else to verify, he may have dressed himself if he was able to change his own nappy? not saying shes lying, just that everything hinges on what she has said

 

[Awakening]

Does he know where to dispose of his pullup in FGM's house? What if he isn't just wet?

I think it would be unusual for a 3 yo to soil himself overnight and for the smell not to be noticeable.

When we travelled we took plastic bags for our kids to put their wet pull up in.

 

[SouthAussie]

is any of this true though, everything we hear is what ffc has said in her happy family picture painting, and there is nobody else to verify, he may have dressed himself if he was able to change his own nappy? not saying shes lying, just that everything hinges on what she has said

I find some of the speculation unrealistic.

While a 3 year old can dress themselves (sometimes you have to show them which is the front and which is the back) and put on their shoes (sometimes on the wrong feet), they typically need some supervising and help - so that they are dressed suitably for the temperature.

Negotiations are often necessary. My DD (at 3) always wanted to wear dresses. I had to negotiate with her to add tights and a jumper in cooler weather.