Australia Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, NSW, 12 Sep 2014 - #70

[Awakening]

Did FF go to the pharmacy and when he realised it wasn't open yet, returned home and something occurred then?

 

[Akai]

I remember it being reported somewhere that FF was showing his new car to FGM the morning sep 12th - and William was sitting in the car, and that apparently William also loved this new car. That fm said she may have been in the shower at this time. IMO does this ring a bell for anyone else

Yes, I have read this, too. I think it came up at the inquest?

 

[JLZ]

I think the CCTV footage at the Tennis Club was only able to capture vehicles heading towards Benaroon .... (i.e. returning vehicles ) So if FF allegedly left at 8:00am the return trip was captured at 8:40am...

Most recently, investigators zeroed in on CCTV footage from the local tennis club, which captured images of cars driving towards Benaroon Drive, where William went missing.

Police set up at the Kendall Tennis Club for the day last month with all CCTV images of cars from the morning William went missing, urging all drivers to come forward and identify their vehicles.
William Tyrell’s disappearance from Kendall now a homicide investigation | Daily Telegraph
imo

Edit to add I don't think we have ever been told if FF Car was captured on the same CCTV at approx 10:30am

I mean, it's unlikely that the tennis club had better footage of the opposite side of the road (travelling towards Benaroon Drive)? I think that in the early days police were more interested in cars entering than exiting, and that's why there's talk about what was captured travelling in.

 

[k-mac]

Yes. This also reminds me of something else.

So as per the DM article released yesterday, the FF was up at 5:50am and, as you note, he was keen to get to the pharmacy early to fill this script. So, given these two pieces of information, why would he be filling that script after his meeting? If the pharmacy opened at 9am in Lakewood and he was willing to leave for an 8am opening, why wouldn't he have left at, say, 8:30am, giving him time to fill the script before his meeting, if he was just at home all morning? It seems to me that it's possible that the reason he couldn't get to the Lakewood Pharmacy when it opened at 9am is because he went out and did a different trip, beginning at around 8am, that required him to return to the house before going out again (for example, because he did not take his meeting gear or because he needed to have a discussion with someone at the house directly), putting him behind schedule and without enough time to go to that Lakewood pharmacy when it opened before his meeting.

According to Grandma he was in a desperate hurry to get his script filled. So why wasnt he at the chemist on opening if he was all bright eyed bushy tailed ready to go.

It botheres me his morning expedition.....(s)

Even though FFC is the current POI His actions...timeline are suspect and unclear.

moo

 

[JLZ]

I think MFC left at about 8:40 and William and FFC started playing in the yard before 9, which is what Mrs W heard before she drove out at 9 (she said). Shortly afterwards FFC played in the yard with both children, and I'd suggest that that was what PS heard between 9 and 9:30 (but closer to 9). I would be readier to think that Mrs W was untruthful about the time she left home than that she heard FGM's TV and mistook it for children playing. I don't remember whether the TV was even on; I believe the kids watched some shows briefly on MFC's portable device in bed, which I definitely don't think Mrs W heard, and besides that was very early.

Another thing: I think, contrary to all the timelines, that FFC was awake before 7 and that she changed William's nappy.

MOO.

BBM. I've just realized that I was misreading some data that led me to form that opinion.

 

[SLouTh]

I mean, it's unlikely that the tennis club had better footage of the opposite side of the road (travelling towards Benaroon Drive)? I think that in the early days police were more interested in cars entering than exiting, and that's why there's talk about what was captured travelling in.

Are you sure about this?? as the CCTV only captured a side view .... the car door / side profile....
If Police were thinking abduction I am sure they would have been looking for cars in both directions, but I cant remember ever reading about that particular footage in MSN????
JMO

 

[Monsoon]

I've posted this theory before but it fits even better with the new video from FFG.

A theory: all speculation only:

7.37 photo taken

fall from balcony

8 ish. MFC drives to hide body

8.50? MFC captured on tennis club camera, returns home

9? MFC leaves again for meeting/chemist

10.30 MFC returns home

10.30 FFC realises shoes still here - drives to hide them near riding club. Uses family car, not grandmother car. (speculation)

 

[k-mac]

I've posted this theory before but it fits even better with the new video from FFG.

A theory: all speculation only:

7.37 photo taken

fall from balcony

8 ish. MFC drives to hide body

8.50? MFC captured on tennis club camera, returns home

9? MFC leaves again for meeting/chemist

10.30 MFC returns home

10.30 FFC realises shoes still here - drives to hide them near riding club. Uses family car, not grandmother car. (speculation)

All possible.

However I dont personally buy into the fall scenario. There really is no reason to not see it for what that would be .... a terrible accident?
IMO it had to be a fatal injury at the hand of somebody to need to hide it.

I think though with the interest in grandmas car....There must be cctv of that car....and I suggest FFC was out n about disposing evidence likely shoes.....(thats what I think LE were looking for) while MFC hides body.

All my own personal speculations

 

[JLZ]

I actually come up with the same perception of this even if I don't put too much weight on him being keen to get to the pharmacy.

If he merely asked what time the pharmacy opened I would still question why he didn't go before his meeting. Because if his plan was to go after his meeting then it was late enough that IMO opening time didn't matter. I would usually ask what time something opens if I'm hoping to fit it in before something else, but that's not of great significance.

And if this conversation never occurred, I still have the primary issue, which is that he was up at 5:50am. Why didn't he have time to get his script before his meeting?

I do think he at least asked what time the pharmacy opened.

He was over-involved with the children for the time he had available, he was trying to prepare for the conference and he got upset because the children were rowdy, he felt that he was running late, he likes to get in position and set up in plenty of time. If he left at 8:40 that's not too much time for an anxious person, it's not surprising he didn't in the end try to squeeze in his pharmacy visit.

Where are you getting that he was up at 5:50? He was likely awake at 5:50, but he was still in bed after L woke up and came to join them and they watched some programs together, which according to FFC had to be after 7.

 

[SLouTh]

I mean, it's unlikely that the tennis club had better footage of the opposite side of the road (travelling towards Benaroon Drive)? I think that in the early days police were more interested in cars entering than exiting, and that's why there's talk about what was captured travelling in.

Are you sure about this?? as the CCTV only captured a side view .... the car door / side profile....
If Police were thinking abduction I am sure they would have been looking for cars in both directions, but I cant remember ever reading about that particular footage in MSN????
JMO

I have checked Caroline Overington's Book - Missing William Tyrrell

Wendy Hudson (Police) had access to the CCTV at The Tennis Club, as she was also the Tennis Club President, and raced to get the CCTV footage only to discover that one of the cameras wasn't working ....They only had vision of cars over the Railway Line....

Page 57, Chapter 4

 

[Akai]

All possible.

However I dont personally buy into the fall scenario. There really is no reason to not see it for what that would be .... a terrible accident?
IMO it had to be a fatal injury at the hand of somebody to need to hide it.

I think though with the interest in grandmas car....There must be cctv of that car....and I suggest FFC was out n about disposing evidence likely shoes.....(thats what I think LE were looking for) while MFC hides body.

All my own personal speculations

IMO the covering up an accident scenario is possible if we factor in that FM was concerned about: (a) her reputation; (b) the perception after the commentary about how difficult William was that we have learned about in yesterday's Daily Mail article and her comments about "giving up or giving in" just prior to his disappearance; and/or (c) losing WT's sister (https://www.theaustralian.com.au/subscribe/news/1/?sourceCode=TAWEB_WRE170_a_GGL&dest=https://www.theaustralian.com.au/nation/william-tyrrell-behind-the-silence-lies-so-much-pain-and-so-many-questions/news-story/3001b90fce451c00e6114a76389f53c8&memtype=anonymous&mode=premium&v21=dynamic-hot-control-score&V21spcbehaviour=append).

This is why IMO it has always been important to know they were foster carers and to NOT see them as parents. A parent would be very, very unlikely IMO to worry about an accident resulting in some sort of investigation into them and consequences to them keeping their children. But a foster carer, who does not have guardianship rights and wants them is IMO completely different and potentially does have that to worry about. It doesn't really matter to me how much FM may or may not have cared about William in this situation; what matters to me is that there were IMO greater consequences to them regardless of that level of care and that IMO changes the complexion of the situation.

ETA: needed to change a pronoun from "her" to "his". Whoops.

 

[JLZ]

I have checked Caroline Overington's Book - Missing William Tyrrell

Wendy Hudson (Police) had access to the CCTV at The Tennis Club, as she was also the Tennis Club President, and raced to get the CCTV footage only to discover that one of the cameras wasn't working ....They only had vision of cars over the Railway Line....

Page 57, Chapter 4

It seems that would be both directions then.

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

 

[Akai]

He was over-involved with the children for the time he had available, he was trying to prepare for the conference and he got upset because the children were rowdy, he felt that he was running late, he likes to get in position and set up in plenty of time. If he left at 8:40 that's not too much time for an anxious person, it's not surprising he didn't in the end try to squeeze in his pharmacy visit.

Where are you getting that he was up at 5:50? He was likely awake at 5:50, but he was still in bed after L woke up and came to join them and they watched some programs together, which according to FFC had to be after 7.

By up I mean awake. I distinguish a situation where someone is awake at 5:50am, therefore having plenty of time to organise themselves by 8am, even if they don't get up until later than that, to a situation where a person first wakes up at, say, 7am. He had plenty of time to organise himself to be at the pharmacy by 9am if that's when it opened, if that's where he wanted to be is what I'm getting at.

I see the situation slightly differently in the morning. I think his priority was his stuff (which is fine IMO) - the pharmacy and his meeting. I see his reaction to the rowdiness of the kids as being focused on that. I personally believe that his intention was to be at the pharmacy before his meeting. Now yes, time may just have gotten away from him, which I think is what you are saying, but I also think it's just as possible that another trip out of the house derailed those plans, in light of the possibility that the 8:40am CCTV was him returning to the house.

 

[k-mac]

IMO the covering up an accident scenario is possible if we factor in that FM was concerned about: (a) her reputation; (b) the perception after the commentary about how difficult William was that we have learned about in yesterday's Daily Mail article and her comments about "giving up or giving in" just prior to her disappearance; and/or (c) losing WT's sister (https://www.theaustralian.com.au/subscribe/news/1/?sourceCode=TAWEB_WRE170_a_GGL&dest=https://www.theaustralian.com.au/nation/william-tyrrell-behind-the-silence-lies-so-much-pain-and-so-many-questions/news-story/3001b90fce451c00e6114a76389f53c8&memtype=anonymous&mode=premium&v21=dynamic-hot-control-score&V21spcbehaviour=append).

This is why IMO it has always been important to know they were foster carers and to NOT see them as parents. A parent would be very, very unlikely IMO to worry about an accident resulting in some sort of investigation into them and consequences to them keeping their children. But a foster carer, who does not have guardianship rights and wants them is IMO completely different and potentially does have that to worry about. It doesn't really matter to me how much FM may or may not have cared about William in this situation; what matters to me is that there were IMO greater consequences to them regardless of that level of care and that IMO changes the complexion of the situation.

GREAT POINTS.

I will add though too if she is unhinged under pump lashing out isn't out of the possibilities.

The current list of alledged charges against her implies the above scenarios are in her realm.

moo

 

[Akai]

It seems that would be both directions then.

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

That's a bit confusing because if they only had vision of cars over the railway line in that direction they would have been front and rear on, not side on.

 

[SleepyJoe]

Did FF go to the pharmacy and when he realised it wasn't open yet, returned home and something occurred then?

Now that's an interesting thought!

 

[Akai]

GREAT POINTS.

I will add though too if she is unhinged under pump lashing out isn't out of the possibilities.

The current list of alledged charges against her implies the above scenarios are in her realm.

moo

Yes, I agree. It's just as possible IMO to interpret the circumstances of William having behavioural issues, and her being at the point of "giving up or giving in" as indicative of a situation where she might lash out, and certainly in light of the recent charges.

 

[SouthAussie]

I have checked Caroline Overington's Book - Missing William Tyrrell

Wendy Hudson (Police) had access to the CCTV at The Tennis Club, as she was also the Tennis Club President, and raced to get the CCTV footage only to discover that one of the cameras wasn't working ....They only had vision of cars over the Railway Line....

Page 57, Chapter 4

It seems that would be both directions then.

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

I think it would likely be this CCTV camera (circled) that CO is speaking of.

It would be able to see both incoming and outgoing traffic.
Probably the side-on view right before/after a vehicle went over the railway tracks.

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

 

[JLZ]

By up I mean awake. I distinguish a situation where someone is awake at 5:50am, therefore having plenty of time to organise themselves by 8am, even if they don't get up until later than that, to a situation where a person first wakes up at, say, 7am. He had plenty of time to organise himself to be at the pharmacy by 9am if that's when it opened, if that's where he wanted to be is what I'm getting at.

I see the situation slightly differently in the morning. I think his priority was his stuff (which is fine IMO) - the pharmacy and his meeting. I see his reaction to the rowdiness of the kids as being focused on that. I personally believe that his intention was to be at the pharmacy before his meeting. Now yes, time may just have gotten away from him, which I think is what you are saying, but I also think it's just as possible that another trip out of the house derailed those plans, in light of the possibility that the 8:40am CCTV was him returning to the house.

Yes, I think he wanted to do the pharmacy before the conference too, but if it opened at 9 that was pretty tight, and leaving at 8 for a ten-minute or so drive wouldn't have helped.

If the 8:40 CCTV was of him travelling in the wrong direction, wouldn't we have heard that somewhere, one of the journalists, one of the books, or wouldn't the tone of the police investigation have been discernibly different long ago?

 

[Akai]

Yes, I think he wanted to do the pharmacy before the conference too, but if it opened at 9 that was pretty tight, and leaving at 8 for a ten-minute or so drive wouldn't have helped.

If the 8:40 CCTV was of him travelling in the wrong direction, wouldn't we have heard that somewhere, one of the journalists, one of the books, or wouldn't the tone of the police investigation have been discernibly different long ago?

I would have thought we'd hear it, which is why I said in my first post about it that it would a major *advertiser censored* up of the police investigation (or words to that effect). I wouldn't usually think that was likely or perhaps even possible, but this has not IMO been a good investigation so I wouldn't rule out they could have missed it.

It's possible IMO that even if police had footage of cars going in both directions that they actually got the direction of his wrong. A friend of mine had that exact thing happen to him where police swore in court that his car was going west when it absolutely 100% had to be going east, and which we acquired further information to prove. Now, that was nothing anywhere near as high stakes as a disappeared child. But I can see a situation where an incorrect initial assessment was made of the photo, they took statements from the FPs that seemed to tally with the initial assessment and a whole series of assumptions was made, and nobody actually revisited the photo properly. Looked at it, sure, but not properly examined it. So IMO it could have simply been a situation where an incorrect assessment got ingrained in the investigation.