Australia Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, NSW, 12 Sept 2014 - #18

[Hilly]

It was very disturbing Hilly......we have a whole world unknown to the majority of us that is disturbing and if widely known possibly something could be done...

Yes I agree Puggle there should be discussions on this subject. I find it so hard to discuss something my mind can't comprehend

 

[Bohemian]

Similar article in MAKO but they named him. http://www.mako.org.au/Grant_Neville_Whiley_NSW_Paedophiles_snuff_sex_plot_revealed.html

I really feel for those parents in the area desperate to know if their kids were on the list and if so why? I would be wanting to know that too.

Disgusting that these types can have their names suppressed and the information is kept from those who deserve to know it.

BBM.

I've read about those incidents happening time and time again, Wexford. It sickens me. At least WA and the NT now has legislation for SSORs and they are/will be public. Let's hope other Australian states follow their lead. (I suppose it's a viable alternative to removing their genitalia, hands and teeth, which I really feel would a just punishment for serial child sexual offenders and murderers, and would go a long way toward ensuring they can never abuse another innocent child.)

By the way, after a child was horrifically sexually abused by a businessman in my suburb, (my state doesn't have a SSOR) someone allegedly violated a court suppression order concerning his name; even after he was convicted; and, as usual, received a non-custodial sentence. *sigh* They allegedly made hundreds of laminated photocopies of a document, naming him, his occupation, and the details and date of his conviction, and glued them (with carpet glue!) to nearly every available vertical surface in our suburb. They were there for weeks.

 

[Hilly]

Similar article in MAKO but they named him. http://www.mako.org.au/Grant_Neville_Whiley_NSW_Paedophiles_snuff_sex_plot_revealed.html


I really feel for those parents in the area desperate to know if their kids were on the list and if so why? I would be wanting to know that too.
Disgusting that these types can have their names suppressed and the information is kept from those who deserve to know it.

I first saw it in MAKO (a read I did not enjoy) wasn't sure if I could link it on here. Now I know thanks.

It's scary how they may have got that list. The parent should be told if their kids on list so to be alert. God knows who else may have their names.

The Police are fighting criminals and the system.

 

[Hilly]

Any of our POIs have any animal abuse (or sexual assault) in their histories?

http://theveterinarian.com.au/?p=284

(I wrote and presented a paper on this subject in 2001. Also with the online tracking work I did of animal and child abusers in the late 2000s-early 2010s I found this to be very often true.)

Thank Bohemian that was a really interesting read. "The Four Stages of Cruelty" seems to be in the background of many of these abusers.

Stage Four

 

[Bohemian]

....I'm off to sleep...but always wanting to see a continuation of conversation....

As there appears to be a lull ATM.... via lack of media resources we can discuss...

I thought about recent (end of last thread posts)
It would appear some opinions are based solely around (???) a train of thought that BS should be excluded as a POI based on him having not been arrested back...sometime in January following the raids on his house and Business property - As surely if they found something he would have been arrested??

I am always curious to find out why people think a certain way....

For those that have those thoughts....are you willing to concede another train of thought or are you fixed with that idea??

I suppose I am coming from a place where I think it's conceivable and possibly even reasonable that Police are given a certain amount of leeway to not act (arrest) immediately. They would most likely have to show just cause why they didn't ... and it would need to be a good reason.

But what if they are able to determine an immediate arrest would hinder their wider investigation..... Are you willing to take on that consideration??

How do major Drug Gangs or syndicates get busted or major Paedophile rings get caught ...surely some illegal activity has to be observed and initial arrests are delayed...why? Could the delay be due to investigators undertaking surveillance, gathering further evidence, linking other members, uncovering further criminal activity?? I would hope that any delay (if that is permissible) is only done so in cases where police can safely say no other individual/persons will be hurt by that delay.

It seems that innocence is presumed simply due to no immediate arrest following raids ...
But are we sure that an arrest has to made at that exact time...

I've tried to find out either way but am coming up with zero concrete evidence either way.

I did come across a PDF Document written by Senior Lawyer, Policy Commonwealth Director of Public Prosecutions ACT ..... It was rather lengthy and truthfully much of it went over my head..but in one section on "accountability" it did state that the police have a wide scope in whether or not they decide to prosecute someone for an offence ... it went on to say something about being accountable for this and having to answer to the Attorney - General regarding that action.

just some thoughts......night all xx

No lull from me, puggs, just using the time between MSM articles and subsequent discussions to do some research and background reading.

I understand your theory about delayed arrests, particularly given your analogy with undercover drug gangs. You may well be on the money, given that Victorian Sex Crimes Squad are also involved in the investigation.

Innocence is still presumed after arrest, until the person is proven guilty in a court of law, so we can understand why people feel that way, even if others find it hard to believe.

If you still have the link to the .pdf, I would love to read it. You can link it by copying it to a note or memo and then closing it. If you re-open it you should be able to copy it and paste it here.

 

[bearbear]

Any of our POIs have any animal abuse (or sexual assault) in their histories?

http://theveterinarian.com.au/?p=284

(I wrote and presented a paper on this subject in 2001. Also with the online tracking work I did of animal and child abusers in the late 2000s-early 2010s I found this to be very often true.)

i know, its very sad and its known in a lot of domestic abuse cases the family pet is hurt or killed or that constant threat, there are some shelters now set up in australia where abused spouses can leave their pets safely when they leave their abuser, a lot of women stay because they cant take their pet to a refuge, there need to be more safe places where abused pets can be left.

sorry bohemian i hadnt read your article when i posted, so informative thankyou!

 

[Hilly]

BBM.

I've read about those incidents happening time and time again, Wexford. It sickens me. At least WA and the NT now has legislation for SSORs and they are/will be public. Let's hope other Australian states follow their lead. (I suppose it's a viable alternative to removing their genitalia, hands and teeth, which I really feel would a just punishment for serial child sexual offenders and murderers, and would go a long way toward ensuring they can never abuse another innocent child.)

By the way, after a child was horrifically sexually abused by a businessman in my suburb, (my state doesn't have a SSOR) someone allegedly violated a court suppression order concerning his name; even after he was convicted; and, as usual, received a non-custodial sentence. *sigh* They allegedly made hundreds of laminated photocopies of a document, naming him, his occupation, and the details and date of his conviction, and glued them (with carpet glue!) to nearly every available vertical surface in our suburb. They were there for weeks.

Don't forget the evil eyes to their dark soul. Carpet glue, nice touch.

 

[Karo]

I do wonder how many abusers were abused as children, themselves. No excuses because not all abused children do become abusers, but it has to change them in some way.

Thank Bohemian that was a really interesting read. "The Four Stages of Cruelty" seems to be in the background of many of these abusers.

Stage Four

 

[Bohemian]

i know, its very sad and its known in a lot of domestic abuse cases the family pet is hurt or killed or that constant threat, there are some shelters now set up in australia where abused spouses can leave their pets safely when they leave their abuser, a lot of women stay because they cant take their pet to a refuge, there need to be more safe places where abused pets can be left.

sorry bohemian i hadnt read your article when i posted, so informative thankyou!

It's a real red flag and I'm so glad LE, animal welfare agencies and womens' and childrens' DV and intervention services have taken note of the connection.

At the same time I wrote my paper, a Forensic Psychologist (forget his name...seems so long ago) at Sydney University was data matching incidences of animal abuse from the RSPCA (NSW) and child abuse from NSWPF. I decided to go into a different field of study, and at that time, the final report was confidential, so never got to see the results. It just made sense to me...still does.

 

[Bohemian]

I do wonder how many abusers were abused as children, themselves. No excuses because not all abused children do become abusers, but it has to change them in some way.

Yes, I often wonder about the 'nature vs nurture' debate but I think even the most learned experts in this field disagree about the cause. I think it's a matter of the 'planets aligning' in an evil(?) (tragic?) way, eg, a series of damaging incidences. It all has to do with the development of empathy in childhood, it seems. There is mention of that in the article. How can you hurt a living, breathing, feeling being and not feel their pain and distress? You can't, unless you have no understanding of those feelings within yourself or, you take pleasure in causing others' pain.

 

[Bohemian]

Don't forget the evil eyes to their dark soul. Carpet glue, nice touch.

I thought so. Dreadful stuff to remove, and Council didn't seem in much of a hurry to get to it, unlike graffiti removal (it's usually gone before it has a chance to dry!)

 

[stormyseas]

Something that keeps bothering me is the fact that WT's family arrived at GM's house unexpectedly on the Thursday evening. So, if it was a planned abduction, the 2 cars spotted in Benaroon Drive may have been there on Friday morning (expecting that was when the family would arrive) with a different purpose in mind. Whether to watch for the arrival of the family, or some other reason according to the plan. The plan may have changed when the perpetrator/s realised the family had already arrived. IMO

 

[Puggle]

No lull from me, puggs, just using the time between MSM articles and subsequent discussions to do some research and background reading.

I understand your theory about delayed arrests, particularly given your analogy with undercover drug gangs. You may well be on the money, given that Victorian Sex Crimes Squad are also involved in the investigation.

Innocence is still presumed after arrest, until the person is proven guilty in a court of law, so we can understand why people feel that way, even if others find it hard to believe.

If you still have the link to the .pdf, I would love to read it. You can link it by copying it to a note or memo and then closing it. If you re-open it you should be able to copy it and paste it here.

A bit brain dead here atm... here is the www whatever it is...
http://www.aic.gov.au/media_library/conferences/outlook99/krone.pdf

 

[Eloise]

I first saw it in MAKO (a read I did not enjoy) wasn't sure if I could link it on here. Now I know thanks.

It's scary how they may have got that list. The parent should be told if their kids on list so to be alert. God knows who else may have their names.

The Police are fighting criminals and the system.

While I'm not from the area and don't know anyone with children in the area, I'd still like to know how they made the list.

 

[Puggle]

Something that keeps bothering me is the fact that WT's family arrived at GM's house unexpectedly on the Thursday evening. So, if it was a planned abduction, the 2 cars spotted in Benaroon Drive may have been there on Friday morning (expecting that was when the family would arrive) with a different purpose in mind. Whether to watch for the arrival of the family, or some other reason according to the plan. The plan may have changed when the perpetrator/s realised the family had already arrived. IMO

When it was just the one POI that were able to discuss because of msm articles..... it was a lot easier to see how easily (kidnapping) may have happened...

But yeah now with the other cars being sighted ... it makes it a lot more complex and various scenarios could come into play.

One of those scenarios I've considered - it was meant to be a robbery on the vacant house .... Maybe Nana mentioned in casual conversation things about her neighbours being away.... but it just so happened one/two ?? of these robbers happened to be a paedophile ??? So that would be where the opportunistic aspect would come into it ... meh..just one scenario ...

ETA: the timing was there in that scenario ....waited till the car across the road from the empty house left .... When Did Richard Wilson say Judy left...I think it was 10.28am..

 

[Eloise]

I definitely think that IF AJ is directly involved (and it's not inevitable, he is just one of at least a dozen POI), it started as a potential burglary - not a targeted kidnapping.
(I no longer feel BS is directly involved, and that his involvement is limited to providing intel on the empty/vacant houses on the street and/or 'accessory after the fact'.)

Just my current thoughts using what we know at this point.

 

[frogwell]

When it was just the one POI that were able to discuss because of msm articles..... it was a lot easier to see how easily (kidnapping) may have happened...

But yeah now with the other cars being sighted ... it makes it a lot more complex and various scenarios could come into play.

One of those scenarios I've considered - it was meant to be a robbery on the vacant house .... Maybe Nana mentioned in casual conversation things about her neighbours being away.... but it just so happened one/two ?? of these robbers happened to be a paedophile ??? So that would be where the opportunistic aspect would come into it ... meh..just one scenario ...

ETA: the timing was there in that scenario ....waited till the car across the road from the empty house left .... When Did Richard Wilson say Judy left...I think it was 10.28am..

BBM

Funny you should mention the time the neighbours left. I was thinking of that very exact time they offered, when I was reading the article that someone on here posted about the phrases people use that indicate the intention to try to conceal information.

BTW, can't find the article at present, but I think JW left her place about 9 am and I thought it was a different neighbor on Benaroon Dr. who said the wife left at 10.28 am.

 

[Karo]

The ex wife and bil is mentioned in this article, so if that is correct, BS was married to CH.
Mr Hillsley is the brother of Mr Spedding's ex-wife
I am sure I had read that before but it also addresses the remarks in court re the historical charges and Hillsley living with the children.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/bill-sped...court-told-20150614-ghnx8h.html#ixzz3nq6Z76Ti
Follow us: @smh on Twitter | sydneymorningherald on Facebook

 

[Wexford]

Something that keeps bothering me is the fact that WT's family arrived at GM's house unexpectedly on the Thursday evening. So, if it was a planned abduction, the 2 cars spotted in Benaroon Drive may have been there on Friday morning (expecting that was when the family would arrive) with a different purpose in mind. Whether to watch for the arrival of the family, or some other reason according to the plan. The plan may have changed when the perpetrator/s realised the family had already arrived. IMO

I suppose it is possible that if the purpose was always abduction, they had planned to do it sometime over the weekend and then were tipped off that the family had arrived earlier?? Im in two minds on this one as to if it was a burglary and turned into an opportunistic abduction or if it was a planned abduction all along. It bothers me (quite a lot actually) about those lists being made of kids to abduct and the fact that WT was such an engaging child. I know he wasnt from the area so probably wasnt on a list as such. But I work in the area of kids sport and it occurs to me that it would be very very easy for someone to make lists and have ages and addresses of kids from their local area. Way too easy actually. And no doubt there are other industries that someone could easily access that info from (schools, preschool, daycare).
I would also point out to those who are not from Aus (or NSW) that the areas that keep coming up are all similar in locality (central west nsw). If you look at a map, starting with Dubbo and heading to Sydney, you could pass through Wellington, Orange and Bathurst and then through Penrith to Sydney. Very common truck route to pass over the Blue Mountains between Sydney and the Central West.

 

[Eloise]

A planned abduction would be more likely if he was local but he wasn't. He wasn't even a frequent visitor.
I don't think it's impossible but I think it's unlikely.

Also aren't all these 'men' in this group into victimising girls? If it was planned, I would assume it was more likely the sister they would have wanted to get.