Australia Australia - William Tyrrell Disappeared While Playing in Yard, Kendall (NSW), Sept 2014 #76

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SA, I think it was important for LE to demonstrate that there was a "pattern of violence and abuse" in that household. A single event could possibly have been explained away by the FFFC as just that, a single event where she lost control. But now it is overwhelmingly clear (to me, at least) that it was ongoing and probably has always been. It is very important in the case they are trying to make. I'm sure the LE officers must've been distraught listening to this ongoing abuse, but also knowing they need enough evidence to act, to be able to remove the children from this toxic environment. Tough job! I'm glad I'm not in their shoes.

Thanks, ameliak. You don't need to explain the police point of view to me. I get it.

It is sad to see others justify the means for the end.

I realise here that some are not seeing the dichotomy of saying "The POOR, POOR kid, going through all that!" and then saying that it was okay that the police kept the child in that situation for close to a year because they were trying to solve a case.
 
I’m not sure of the process but I’m assuming police would need a court order in order to remove a child?

Did they notify but it not go to court until later? I’m guessing they would of consulted with someone about what to do.

If we think a child or young person is in immediate danger, we will move them to a safe place. (bbm)

 
I'd be interested to know during the defence if police will be asked why warrants were granted to tap the FP's home, how long they did it for and based on what evidence? Also, have the incidences been occurring from the time they began tapping or did it begin after a period of time? I'm also wondering if on the taps there are examples of the FP's giving extensive use of methods that FACS professionals have recommended to support the child that just didn't work on her?
 
I realise here that some are not seeing the dichotomy of saying "The POOR, POOR kid, going through all that!" and then saying that it was okay that the police kept the child in that situation for close to a year because they were trying to solve a case.
You would think that the Police could have arranged a “covert operation” to remove the child and continue the surveillance….

Eg. Liaise with child’s case worker and the school / councillor etc to talk to the child at school …. To try and get the child to tell what was happening at home …. Child could have been removed from the home without disclosing the information came from a surveillance tape ……

That is just one easy example, but I am sure the Police could have managed something more elaborate if necessary ….. to keep child /ren safe and get their result with the tapes ….

I am wondering if the Coroner will make some recommendations about this in her findings ???

JMO
 
If we think a child or young person is in immediate danger, we will move them to a safe place. (bbm)


I did see that when I googled but it’s still not clear to me.

It’s such a unique case. But I imagine it’s not the first time police have unwittingly captured a crime whilst have people under surveillance.

Who listens to the surveillance? Is it a police officer, a detective, an office assistant?

Are they mandated to report what they hear from surveillance if they are not surveying for that purpose?

Would the surveillance be admissible in a court case for a child’s removal?

Do we know if police made a report at the time?

Do these assaults mean automatic removal or would the parents be contacted interviewed and offered counselling and supports?

If the child is already in the foster system is it easier or harder to have them removed?
 
You would think that the Police could have arranged a “covert operation” to remove the child and continue the surveillance….

Eg. Liaise with child’s case worker and the school / councillor etc to talk to the child at school …. To try and get the child to tell what was happening at home …. Child could have been removed from the home without disclosing the information came from a surveillance tape ……

That is just one easy example, but I am sure the Police could have managed something more elaborate if necessary ….. to keep child /ren safe and get their result with the tapes ….

I am wondering if the Coroner will make some recommendations about this in her findings ???

JMO

But how do we know they didn’t do this? Or have I missed something, I haven’t been on WS much lately.
 
The evidence is hard to read, the psychological harm inflicted by the foster parents, just heartbreaking on top of the physical assaults. I thought they would have strong evidence but this blows my mind - manipulation, threats, shifting blame, it goes on and on. Thank goodness the police were able to prosecute. How many other children experience this kind of treatment day after day, so very sad
 
You would think that the Police could have arranged a “covert operation” to remove the child and continue the surveillance….

Eg. Liaise with child’s case worker and the school / councillor etc to talk to the child at school …. To try and get the child to tell what was happening at home …. Child could have been removed from the home without disclosing the information came from a surveillance tape ……

That is just one easy example, but I am sure the Police could have managed something more elaborate if necessary ….. to keep child /ren safe and get their result with the tapes ….

I am wondering if the Coroner will make some recommendations about this in her findings ???

JMO

I hope so. The police are supposed to keep the children safe, not use them as pawns in a covert operation. The child is not even old enough to consent to that.
 
I'd be interested to know during the defence if police will be asked why warrants were granted to tap the FP's home, how long they did it for and based on what evidence? Also, have the incidences been occurring from the time they began tapping or did it begin after a period of time? I'm also wondering if on the taps there are examples of the FP's giving extensive use of methods that FACS professionals have recommended to support the child that just didn't work on her?

IF FACS did give the fosters extensive methods and none of them worked then… what? It doesn’t justify the abuse we are reading about. And I daresay any methods to improve behaviour wouldn’t have worked if the foster parents were so incapable of regulating their own emotions.

Plenty of people have extremely challenging children and don’t do this.

And so far what we are hearing about is very typical stuff: not putting things away, dragging feet when doing chores, not looking after belongings, being rude, cheeky.
 
When this case 1st came to Hornsby court, I remember the magistrate thought that on the face of it, this case looked like a pretty standard case that she had had before her many times.
Thanks for your thoughtful and considered post @iiiii's

I have just snipped this little portion to clarify ….

I think the initial charge (Hornsby) was just for the 2 alleged assault charges of the FM ???
Since then, further charges of alleged stalking and intimidation have been added, along with alleged charges of the FF added into the one case.

So I am not so sure this is now the same “standard case” ??

Others may be able to assist in confirming my understanding is correct??

IMO
 
i wonder if removing her blew their surveillance cover or they were able to keep listening?

I don’t think it’s clear exactly what the police did or didn’t do and when. I imagine there were conversations and phone calls before they officially reported it.

There must be other cases of police witnessing child abuse or a child at risk whilst the parents are under surveillance for drug dealing or something. Would be good to know what happened in similar cases.
 
The problems that beset the William Tyrrell case from the moment the three-year-old vanished go directly to the heart of Australia's flawed foster parent system.

On one side, you have his foster parents, a wealthy, well-educated couple who live in a $4 million home on Sydney's exclusive north shore.

And on the other are his biological parents, who fell under suspicion from police because of the problems which saw them lose custody of the little boy in the first place: substance abuse and issues with law and order.


Right there to me is the key to the abduction theory.
The fosters had always half expected the bios to abduct the kids.
It was forefront in their mind.

An easy go to explanation of Williams disappearance expecting the bio's to get the blame.
Backfired though when it was established pretty quickly the bio's alibi's and cops seeing them face to face immediately in Sydney.
Nowhere near Kendall.
 
i wonder if removing her blew their surveillance cover or they were able to keep listening?
It would depend on what was revealed about the surveillance tapes at the NSWCC Hearing??? Which we will probably never know as the NSWCC is so secretive .. From what has been reported, we know the surveillance continued until that time …

I imagine, that, as the hearing was about the “disappearance of William”, that a FACS lawyer was also present at the NSWCC hearing, as William was a foster child. However, that is just an assumption on my part….

All IMO
 
It would depend on what was revealed about the surveillance tapes at the NSWCC Hearing??? Which we will probably never know as the NSWCC is so secretive .. From what has been reported, we know the surveillance continued until that time …

I imagine, that, as the hearing was about the “disappearance of William”, that a FACS lawyer was also present at the NSWCC hearing, as William was a foster child. However, that is just an assumption on my part….

All IMO

And a govt dept (DCJ) won't be suing a govt dept (NSWPOL) for accountability for their actions - or inactions.
That would be the State of NSW suing the State of NSW. (Seeing that the child was under the care of the Minister.)

So it will all remain hush-hush unless the Coroner makes a recommendation.
 
The evidence is hard to read, the psychological harm inflicted by the foster parents, just heartbreaking on top of the physical assaults. I thought they would have strong evidence but this blows my mind - manipulation, threats, shifting blame, it goes on and on. Thank goodness the police were able to prosecute. How many other children experience this kind of treatment day after day, so very sad
I understand and agree. Things have changed a lot in the last 40-50 years of child rearing and once you have many people over 50 have died out you will probably have no objection to the current laws what so ever. I don't like doing this, but I'm going to show my true colours here. Many of us were raised in this same society many years ago, to respect our elders, to know our place as children, that adults/parents were in charge and to be obedient. This was done with fear of a smack or of being shamed and sometimes with belts and spoons. It was backed up by police and teachers and grandparents. If you complained about getting a smack sent to your room, usually other authorities reiterated "well so you bloody should, you should listen to your parents." And if kids were "mucking up" in public, people quickly recommended the parents do something about the child's behaviour, that is how strong the pressure to control your child was. And children were told, when they didn't like it, when they grew up they would be in charge and could make the decisions then, but not now. It was written about in newspapers when a child at an undesirable high school would tell a teacher to "Get *advertiser censored****!" People actively sent about 1/3 of their kids to schools that doled out strapping and caning because they believed their kids needed it to grow up to be respectful. Now they say it everywhere and worse, every day of the year. The child in this case with the same evidence 50 years ago would have been demonised for her behaviour, and the parents felt sorry for. I don't really know what my point is except all the kids from 50 years ago did grow up and are in charge of the way things are done now, are aware of the psychological, emotional damage etc. think they can raise kids in a kinder, more positive way and understand what kids need and many just can't live up to the expectations or challenges that they are faced with. And thousands upon thousands are still doing the same old behind doors that they grew up with because they are ignoring the law, the long term effects on children and because the short term results are working for them. I have always had ??'s around the FFC's involvement in WT's disappearance. I come from the same neighborhood the MFC grew up in, I know how the children act in public and what goes on behind closed doors in Killara, the FP's in age are just a few years ahead of me and whether they have done something to WT or not, I think I understand to a degree, their struggle/conflict around parenting, probably constantly triggered knowing that the instances that were similar in their childhood were probably v. easily fixed when their parents were in charge (on the surface) and resorting to old tactics when desparate. I am not trying to excuse or make it right. I just think I understand. MOO
 
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