GUILTY Austria - Woman Held Captive, Had 7 Children by Father

[reb]

believe09- good point... probably so. and as for the nazi ties.. read my post #373. there is definitely something still lingering in that culture that the modern-day citizens are still trying to come to grips with.

and PSUfan- yeah, i think 'sexually brutalized' is more appropriate here....

 

[LaMer]

<Just like dad, and the siblings in that book, this mom was in denial, and did not find the courage, or the will to save her daughter.>

exactly,, PSUfan. just don't anyone tell me 'she didn't know.' the truth is: she didn't WANT to know... but nonetheless,, she surely did. i'm waiting for her to start talking... any day now...

reb, did you read the 2nd page of this article? The monster had the entire family under his total control. Molesting his daughter, striking the other children and appears to have treated his wife with absolutley no respect. She was beneath him, nothing more than a slave. Even she wasn't good enough for him, nor satisfied him anymore. I could see where she might not have known what was going on. Like you tho.......waiting, we will see.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,551451-2,00.html

I can't even think of words which would describe this horrendous pity poor excuse of a human being. He isn't human-DEVIL EVIL that 15 years has been infuriating me all day! :furious:

 

[believe09]

and i also have to question the siblings of elisabeth.. where where THEY in all this...????? when they were children, i understand they were afraid to stand up to pappa dearest, and may not have known what was right & wrong. but when they were teens, and ADULTS..?? ..when they moved out?? did they not know about the abuse, the rapes, did they not care at all what had happened to their sister?? ..or want to try and rescue her from the home? when they were sunning in italy with their mother, did they not wonder why she was not 'allowed' to go?? talk about a cinderella story (except there's no prince here). WHY did NO ONE stand up for her, try to find her... or seem to care about her...??? again,, it just boggles the mind.

hey reb, I read your post about the concentration camp-thank you for the input.

I agree that there is something about that particular generation of folks in that particular culture that did not grow up unscathed by all that went on during the war. I spent quite a bit of time studying it during college, and I remember all the earnest discussions I used to have about "scapegoating."

The thing about scapegoating, is that it is not limited to environments like this case in Austria. If you at all recognize the concept, then it will help you understand cases where there are siblings or another parent...in a house of horrors imagine what choice you would make if you had a chance to avoid unspeakable pain or whatever, even if your share of pain was going to be doled out to a loved one. How do you make a choice like that? Your psyche takes a vacation when you buy into the fact that perhaps there is something about this one that "deserves it" more...perhaps Elisabeth fought back or refused to stay silent or whatever...the others were too busy killing their souls so they could survive. As for the mother, I have no use for her...but I will spare you my rant on that. Karma will get her in the long run.

I have seen an abbreviated version of this play out-I have seen children and adults making themselves numb so things do not hurt as badly.

Reb, you and I rarely agree, but I respect your perspective. Somehow when it comes to this father, I suspect that there is no punishment anyone can offer him that will exceed how he feels to have lost them all.

 

[mysteriew]

Hi Mysteriew ..

According to a *timeline report* that aired on CNN last night - the *surviving twin* that Elisabeth gave birth to "arrived on Fritzl's doorstep" as a 1 year old. A baby girl. The twins were in the middle of the birth order of 7 births.

There was also an amazing computer generated diagram of the underground basement areas - how it was all laid out - how Fritzl accessed the hidden area behind the bookcase - the double steel doors - the living area of the prisoners. There were also actual pictures of those areas. CNN. I'm sure it will be repeated many times today.


ETA: "Server Too Busy - Try Again". Hard to stay connected or post today.

Rum Tum

Thank you Rum Tum Tugger.

 

[nanandjim]

yep. She made babies with her husband... she KNEW his sexual appetite... he wouldve explored them with her until she got fat, or old, or whatever.. but NOWAY did she not know his sexual leanings. She wouldve known that he was abusing her daughter, way before the abduction. I would be very surprised if she was the only daughter that he molested. And I use that term "molested" loosely, because you cannot even begin to cover what Elisabeth went through with that one word.

I also wonder about the other daughters. The one older sister, Rosemary?, was very pretty and looked like Elisabeth. Could he have targeted Elisabeth for some reason? Maybe, he thought that he could break her spirit. This guy was about complete control.

 

[reb]

you know.... we really have to give elisabeth a huge amount of credit,, because by all accounts, unless we find out otherwise.... she was a loving mother to her children. how she kept her sanity, and humanity.. is beyond me. but the fact that her children are as OK as they are (mentally) is just astounding. they could have all easily turned into a pack of animals.. she could have gone insane and abused, killed, eaten her babies... anything. she took all that abuse for DECADES... and STILL did not continue the cycle by abusing her OWN children!!! she is a saint in my book. just the fact that the kids are said to be 'adjusting incredibly well' and that the reunion with the grandmother and other siblings went so well.. even though they (the kids) had NEVER MET ANOTHER HUMAN BEING their entire lives (except the monster, who i would not call human)..... just blows my mind.

the world must seem (along with being somewhat scary)- too good to be true to them... endless amounts of food, medical care, comforts, and TLC from caring people,,, they are probably getting just about anything they desire right now. and can you imagine seeing the sky, a tree,, etc. for the first time?? and no doubt they will getting boatloads of money, gifts, offers of assistance, etc... from all over the world. meanwhile, i LOVE the fact that the monster is getting up to 4 bags of hate mail a day....... HA HAAAAAA!!!

anyway, when they describe the little one clinging to his mother.. and how there were children's drawings on the walls down there... just breaks my heart. but somehow she kept it together and it sounds like she tried to keep some sense of 'normalcy'..... just amazing.

 

[Native New Yorker]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article3876396.ece

Josef Fritzl 'began building cellar six years before seizing daughter'


Officers investigating the incest and sexual abuse case against Josef Fritzl revealed yesterday that he started building the underground dungeon in which he imprisoned his daughter six years before her incarceration began.
Speaking to The Times at a press conference yesterday, Colonel Franz Polzer said that Mr Fritzl had planned the imprisoning and sexual abuse of Elisabeth in astonishing detail.
“Fritzl acted with premeditation when he began building the underground cellar of his home in 1978,” he said. “We assume he had already selected his daughter Elisabeth, who was to become a prisoner of the concrete dungeon.”

 

[philamena]

Mr Polzer also revealed that investigators, who have so far been focusing on examining the scene of the crime, Mr Fritzl&#8217;s three-storey family house in the town of Amstetten, have found a second entrance to the dungeon.

SNIP

Police said that anyone trying to access the dungeon would need to pass through eight doors; all were locked and the last two were electronically controlled. The second entrance was secured by four doors. &#8220;Fritzl planned every detail with astonishing precision. His diabolical plan was almost perfect,&#8221; Mr Polzer said.

His evil actions were well planned.

 

[mysteriew]

I don't know, I just have trouble with the idea that the mother didn't know. How about when Elizabeth was cooking, did odor's not drift up? Besides all the extra food that would have to have been taken to the dungeon, there are a lot of little doo dads, decorative items in the dungeon. Did the mother not notice the dad picking those up and did she not wonder where they went?

The mother has explained through friends that she was living elsewhere when the dungeon was built, but what about the expansion? The dirt would have had to come out and the building materials in. Did the mother never go into the cellar, to call him for supper or just simply out of curosity as to what he did down there?

 

[shana]

Would cooking odors drift-up when there wasn't enough oxygen sent-down? I don't believe so. What cooking anyway...she had only a hot plate or two. Beyond that, the sealed dungeon was far away from the family living quarters...it was even far from the forbidden cellar itself.

All 4 are reportedly thin...not as if JF was loading a banquet down the chute every day or even once a week.

24 yrs of child artwork on the walls, I do not see. What I do see looks like what could be made from some colored construction paper and a glue stick. Same with all the brightly colored fabrics draped here & there. Granted, there were likely far more personal items that we are not privy to see which were collected by police as evidence. One article today mentioned teddy bears.

I believe that the mother Rosemarie did NOT know of this horror.

Time will tell, when we get accurate reports instead of all this sensationalizing and exaggeration in the press.

For me right now, I like the idea that Elisabeth and her mother are preparing meals together for their children/grands...if that report is true.

 

[DawnTCB]

It looks to me from the pictures/maps that the portion of the "cellar" that they were being held in was no where near the portion of the cellar under the house... this is not like being held in a basement of a home or even the basement of a building, at least from what I can see. This would be more like, if you went to the basement and then tunneled a hole/hallway deep horizontally into the earth, and then built a room there, so they actually were held beneath a grassy courtyard looking area, not below the house. I would think that any sounds or smells which might have risen to the surface would have been heard or smelled only out in the yard, many feet away from the home, with no indication that anything was amiss...

If I walked out into the courtyard at my old apartment building and thought I smelled spaghetti or heard a baby crying, I can guarantee you I wouldn't think someone was being held underground below the courtyard! It is one thing to imagine him holding people in the cellar of the building, and certainly if people could hear or smell things from the doorway to the cellar that might have raised some concerns, but these children were not in the cellar proper, they were in a cave through eight(?) locked doors off the cellar and deep in the ground. Not in the basement, under the building itself, but under grass and trees and sidewalks. I think it is very possible that no one knew about Elisabeth and the children, even the wife.

I think most basements are no larger in square footage than the first floor of the building - someone can correct that assumption if you disagree. There would be no reason to even consider that someone was expanding the cellar beyond the visible footprint of the house, to out under the yard...

Just pondering...

 

[reb]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7373172.stm

i don't see how the cellar extended to under the backyard, beyond the house. then again this isn't a very clear map.

still..... after 24 years.. not a few weeks, months, or a few years, or 10 years.. but TWENTY-FOUR years.... (!!!!) you would think a little light would go on inside that woman's head and she might wonder.. 'hhmmm...... what IS he doing down there all this time, anyway??' typically your common sense and curiosity would tell you that someone who was SO adamant about his secrecy.. was up to no good. especially if they are an evil tyrant like him!

i suspect that she was probably happy when he was gone, & didn't care so much where he went.. because she could have the house (and children) to herself, and the toxic atmosphere he brought into a room was less oppressive.

but STILL........ twenty fours YEARS....???? AND with a 'missing' daughter on top of it?? and the rape/abuse being an 'open family' secret?? AND the fact that your husband served jail time for raping a stranger??? you would think she might wonder if his frequent trips to the basement might have something to do with his daughter's disappearance, that he was hiding something bad, etc.
most women can detect subtle signs that their partner has been with another woman... in his behavior, speech, attitude, and with all 5 (and sometimes, 6) senses. i know this man & his wife were no longer close,, but don't anyone tell me she didn't have some inkling that something strange was going on in that house.
you would have to be very mentally slow, or even retarded, to be completely unaware or anything at all, for so many years.

another question.... what about the ventilation pipe that he installed? where did that lead to? wouldn't you be able to hear voices echoing up through the pipe, the sound of TV/radio, etc, coming out from underground? nothing has been said about this. also, if the daughter knew he was going away for a month, you'd think they would start screaming for help. but he had them so paralyzed by fear, i can see how they might be too scared to do anything.

 

[Vegas Bride]

The more I think about this, the more I think the mother really did not know her daughter was being held captive. For 1 thing, she had run away before so it really would not have been a surprise that she'd run away again. Add to that the phone call, if she was aware of her being held then there would have been no need to make that call. When the babies were left at the doorstep, instead of the notes being left, he could have had his wife say her daughter left them with her.
Her sister mentioned about them going to search homeless centers etc to look for Elizabeth, if the mother knew where she was then no need to be looking. I do think the mother knew about some of the abuse before she went missing and did not do things to protect her daughter. She knew her husband was a and sadly like many other women kept silent to preserve the life she had with him.
When he was locked up for the rape, I think that's when the seed was planted for him to always have an available victim kept for him in the dungeon, he had to keep raping but could not risk being caught and locked up again.

VB

 

[Zanko]

What's the difference between a basement and a cellar? Some of the articles refer to these as separate spaces.

Regarding the smell of food or noises: They had tenants. I would imagine that this would help as a cover for these things.

I was thinking about the light. He could have used this as another form of torture. "If you attempt to make noise, I'll leave you in complete darkness."

Finally, I want to say that Elisabeth is an amazing person to have survived this. I can see how the love of her children would keep her from committing suicide, but she spent at least 4 years down there before she got pregnant (as far as we know). I imagine most people would not have had the will to endure so much.

 

[Pandora]

In real estate terms here, a basement has a concrete floor, while a cellar is dug/packed dirt.

 

[concernedperson]

Now authorities are wondering if he raped his granddaughter Kirsten and used her as a sex slave. The horrors of this case are just unbelievable.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,354286,00.html

 

[Zanko]

Anyone else notice that the article repeatedly said "...fathered at least six of her children..." Maybe the youngest is Kersten's???

 

[concernedperson]

Anyone else notice that the article repeatedly said "...fathered at least six of her children..." Maybe the youngest is Kersten's???

We speculated this a day or so ago and lo and behold this article comes out.

 

[philamena]

Now authorities are wondering if he raped his granddaughter Kirsten and used her as a sex slave. The horrors of this case are just unbelievable.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,354286,00.html

That evil sonofabiotch.:furious::furious::furious::furious:

 

[AmandaBrown23]

I have a question, it says she was locked up at 11 but the articles say she was locked up for 24 years and she is now 42. The math doesnt add up. She would be 35 if locked up at 11, did I miss something