GUILTY Austria - Woman Held Captive, Had 7 Children by Father

[Parmenides]

I must be dense, because I don't understand why the boys can't talk. Even if they never had access to the outside world, at the very least their mother would have talked to them. :waitasec: What am I missing?

It says they can talk to strangers, but they have to work really hard at it. Whereas among themselves they talk in a grunting language of their own. This just shows that to learn language properly we really need more than one model (maybe we need lots of people speaking that language to give us the motivation to conform to it). But humans will communicate and if they don't have a language to emulate, they will invent one of their own.

 

[Parmenides]

There is a lot strange about the way this case ended. Suddenly after keeping them captive for so long, he finds the compassion to take the sick girl to hospital, and not only that, but take Elisabeth as well, even though he must have realised the huge risk of being exposed. I mean, we hear that Elisabeth is a physical and emotional wreck, who had not seen the sunlight for 24 years. What were the doctors going to make of her when she showed up? Well, maybe in this secretive Austrian society, anything is possible, but I imagine they are going to have had some questions about her appearance. Even so, it doesn't say the doctors tipped off the police, though maybe that is what it means between the lines. Meanwhile, what did Herr Fritzl think about what Kerstin was going to say if she came round in hospital?

Although someone above said he didn't show compassion but was just forced to take the girl to hospital, I'm not so sure. It wouldn't have been beyond the bounds of possibility for him to dispose of her body and that might have seemed less risky than taking her to hospital, where questions were bound to be asked.

Obviously I'm not saying the guy is compassionate. He is almost completely inhuman and showing a tiny ounce of compassion after 24 years of unbelievable abuse hardly makes him a normal member of the human race.

But I go back to my original point, whether it was 'compassion' or whatever it was, there is something strange and anomalous about the way it all ended. I suspect this means there are more revelations to come.

 

[Anita Richman]

There is a lot strange about the way this case ended. Suddenly after keeping them captive for so long, he finds the compassion to take the sick girl to hospital, and not only that, but take Elisabeth as well, even though he must have realised the huge risk of being exposed. I mean, we hear that Elisabeth is a physical and emotional wreck, who had not seen the sunlight for 24 years. What were the doctors going to make of her when she showed up? Well, maybe in this secretive Austrian society, anything is possible, but I imagine they are going to have had some questions about her appearance. Even so, it doesn't say the doctors tipped off the police, though maybe that is what it means between the lines. Meanwhile, what did Herr Fritzl think about what Kerstin was going to say if she came round in hospital?

Although someone above said he didn't show compassion but was just forced to take the girl to hospital, I'm not so sure. It wouldn't have been beyond the bounds of possibility for him to dispose of her body and that might have seemed less risky than taking her to hospital, where questions were bound to be asked.

Obviously I'm not saying the guy is compassionate. He is almost completely inhuman and showing a tiny ounce of compassion after 24 years of unbelievable abuse hardly makes him a normal member of the human race.

But I go back to my original point, whether it was 'compassion' or whatever it was, there is something strange and anomalous about the way it all ended. I suspect this means there are more revelations to come.

:clap: :clap: Great, insightful post! I agree...I think more revelations will come.

 

[LillyRush]

I read somewhere that she was found collapsed outside. So, maybe neighbors and others saw her and he had no choice but to take her to a hospital.

 

[concernedperson]

There is a lot strange about the way this case ended. Suddenly after keeping them captive for so long, he finds the compassion to take the sick girl to hospital, and not only that, but take Elisabeth as well, even though he must have realised the huge risk of being exposed. I mean, we hear that Elisabeth is a physical and emotional wreck, who had not seen the sunlight for 24 years. What were the doctors going to make of her when she showed up? Well, maybe in this secretive Austrian society, anything is possible, but I imagine they are going to have had some questions about her appearance. Even so, it doesn't say the doctors tipped off the police, though maybe that is what it means between the lines. Meanwhile, what did Herr Fritzl think about what Kerstin was going to say if she came round in hospital?

Although someone above said he didn't show compassion but was just forced to take the girl to hospital, I'm not so sure. It wouldn't have been beyond the bounds of possibility for him to dispose of her body and that might have seemed less risky than taking her to hospital, where questions were bound to be asked.

Obviously I'm not saying the guy is compassionate. He is almost completely inhuman and showing a tiny ounce of compassion after 24 years of unbelievable abuse hardly makes him a normal member of the human race.

But I go back to my original point, whether it was 'compassion' or whatever it was, there is something strange and anomalous about the way it all ended. I suspect this means there are more revelations to come.

This is a good post and it does make perfect sense that there are more revelations to come. The tip that came may be the reason he showed any interest at all in taking the child to the hospital and allowing Elisabeth to go there.If someone was on to him and his horrible deeds then he probably knew if Kirsten died that it would be more difficult to get rid of an adult body than an infant's body. Also, he may be faced with the fact that Elisabeth wasn't doing so well herself and the children remaining would also be a problem. I also think he may have not believed Elisabeth would tell on him.

His control wasn't as complete as he thought although he has nearly destroyed his daughter. One of the articles said she appears to be around 68 years old with white hair and hardly any teeth. This young woman is in her 40's. The last years must have been horrible with constant toothache and child birth after effects not even counting severe vitamin D deficiency. Or being raped and God knows what else she has been put through.

Another article said that one of the boys prefers to crawl vs. stand upright and walk. Is this because he was beaten when he walked? This story just absolutely breaks my heart with the horror of it all.

 

[NewMom2003]

I've avoided this thread until this afternoon.

I'm utterly speechless.

 

[dottierainbow]

I can't even fathom what they went through.
I was kept in a trailer with fiberglass in the windows so noone could see me. My exhusband was totally insane and jealous. I was with him for 3 years and have blocked alot of bad memories. I was able to go out when he was with me. I left him when I was 5 months pregnant with my daughter because I had enough beatings. I have been with my current husband 22 years. He is a gem.
I didn't nearly suffer as much s these people did. If I did I don't think I could function.

I've avoided this thread until this afternoon.

I'm utterly speechless.

 

[Mohabi]

Bless her wonderful, good heart. she is going to be a major figure working against abuse of victims in her life. incredibly intelligent and with total empathy, she's amazing! :blowkiss: :blowkiss: :blowkiss:

This is exactly the way I feel about Natascha, but..... I'm glad you all can't read the forums on Austrian Newspapers or you most certainly would learn to hate the Austrian people. Natasha hadn't even been free for a week when the trashing started. "She's an attention seeker", "she's after the money", "she should shut her trap", "she is a liar", etc. etc. I won't even mention the uglier comments on the forums because they are very upsetting. Now again, after her donation offer for this poor family, the Austrian fingers are wagging on the online newspaper forums. The victim blamers are working overtime....

My mother was Austrian. I spent many a vacation in that country and I can most definitely believe that it's possible to hide someone in the cellar, and that the wife DOES know and the neighbors DO notice and know, but all of them will remain quiet. Don't ask me why they do so, I've never been able to figure it out.

To the poster who mentioned Mauthausen, the concentration camp..... it's just "across the river" from where my mother's home still stands today. These people watched the Germans drive (and I mean drive as in cattle drive, on foot) tens of thousands of Jewish people with children past their house, KNOWING that just a few hours later the chimneys in Mauthausen would start smoking.... and yet were afraid to open their mouth for fear of an equal fate.

There was a neighboring farmer there too, married with 2 children (who I played with). One of the tenants in the farm house, a woman with a quadriplegic husband, had two daughters also. Unmistakably they were the landlord's children. They were a mirror image of him. Both the landlord's wife and the "tenants" lived in the same farmhouse for as long as I can remember; the entire town was quite aware of the facts......and the quadriplegic husband sleeping in the living room while his wife was "paying the rent".....

The landlord's wife looked many years older than she was, like a poor, thin dried-out raisin, working the fields, milking the cows.... while her handsome husband was otherwise entertained. Did the wife protest? Did she ask for a divorce? Did she insist the tenants move away? Did the children ever question their father's actions? No, everybody was too afraid to speak up - the man had a temper. Tempers in Austria are still manifested by use of a belt, yes - even today.

 

[LillyRush]

....

My mother was Austrian. I spent many a vacation in that country and I can most definitely believe that it's possible to hide someone in the cellar, and that the wife DOES know and the neighbors DO notice and know, but all of them will remain quiet. Don't ask me why they do so, I've never been able to figure it out..

Mohabi, Sorry to snip the larger part of your post. But I wanted to focus on this and ask, what is it about Austria that makes it so easy for this to happen?

edited to add- you partially answered my question (kind of, by saying you don't know)..but just clarifying, I meant as a country...the law enforcement...what do you think is happening or not happening that allows this to be so easy for some people there?

 

[golfmom]

Mohabi, that was a very interesting post. I'm stunned to hear that Natascha was slammed after her escape. I'm so impressed with this young woman!

 

[Tristan]

This story is so utterly sickening to me.

I cannot even imagine how it feels to have never seen daylight in your entire life, like her children. They must be so physically and emotionally messed up. I pray for them all, and hope that they will one day be able to lead a normal life.

 

[Mohabi]

Mohabi, Sorry to snip the larger part of your post. But I wanted to focus on this and ask, what is it about Austria that makes it so easy for this to happen?

edited to add- you partially answered my question (kind of, by saying you don't know)..but just clarifying, I meant as a country...the law enforcement...what do you think is happening or not happening that allows this to be so easy for some people there?

No worries about snipping my post....it was too long anyway All I can tell you is that whenever you ask someone "why don't you call the police?" the answer invariably is "Das geht uns nichts an". (It's none of our business).

Sticking your nose into someone else's business seems to be a bigger sin than whatever someone else is doing wrong, whether that wrong is child abuse, marital infidelity, theft, or in this present case incest and incarceration. But, of course I don't KNOW that in this case it was what happened, I just "think" it did. It would fit the picture.

You see, my maternal great grandfather apparently was one of these bellicose, hateful people who sued his neighbors and constantly stuck his nose into their business. He sued because their pears fell off the neighbors tree into HIS yard; he sued because one of the neighbors tree's branches was casting a shadow on about a square foot of his land; he sued because the neighbor's chickens slipped through the fence onto his property.

But he told his children "Das geht uns nichts an" (it's none of our business) when the neighbor's wife would be beaten black and blue, when the children would be locked out at night in the middle of winter, when.....etc. etc.
According to my mom, the belt was his favorite weapon too....

I must add that I know many warm, wonderful, intelligent Austrians. However, I wouldn't want to bet that they'd act if they saw something that isn't "their business".

 

[golfmom]

It's just so hard to understand that mindset and when you are talking about it being culturally ingrained ... WOW, just WOW.

I really believe at least one person knew and kept quiet ... how else would an anonymous call be made alerting the authorities?

 

[philamena]

One of the cable news stations reported that one of those held captive was reunited with their family. I missed part of the report.
Was it Natasha?

 

[Mohabi]

The newest article at Kronen Zeitung http://www.krone.at/, one of Austria's most important newspapers starts as follows:

"He had never before seen the stars, never felt the wind, never seen other people - and then it all happened at once. The boy born five years ago in the cellar was totally overwhelmed during his first minutes of freedom ""the world out there is so beautiful""!

I think I'm choking up

 

[golfmom]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article3850641.ece

“We are not conducting an investigation into a crime involving accomplices,” he said. But Colonel Polzer also announced that the unravelling of the case was due to an anonymous tip-off.
.......
Their action raises the question of who tipped off the police if not an accomplice? “Knowing about a crime is not the same as being an accomplice,” said Colonel Polzer. “The informant asked anonymity and we will respect that.” The police seem determined to rule out any possibility of someone being in league with Mr Fritzl.

Yet more clues point to third-party involvement. The door to the dungeon - which had received building permission as a nuclear fallout shelter - weighed 300kg (660lb) and could only have been hinged into position with the help of someone else. Mr Fritzl, moreover, went on several holidays, including at least one three-week stay in Thailand, leaving Elisabeth and her children in the cellar.

Even if the small pantry was full of cans it is unlikely that there would have been enough food to feed them. And there are still questions about how the imprisoned relatives disposed of their rubbish. Colonel Polzer blocked questions on the issue and seemed even to deny knowledge of Mr Fritzl's holidays and absences.

“If there is a home video from this Thailand trip then we would like the media to give it to us and we will then think about it.” The video, shown widely on television, shows Mr Fritzl and a friend from Munich riding on an elephant (off-camera commentary: “Hey, Sepp [Mr Fritzl's nickname] you had better show this to your wife to convince her that we're on safari, not hunting for humans”).

 

[concernedperson]

The newest article at Kronen Zeitung http://www.krone.at/, one of Austria's most important newspapers starts as follows:

"He had never before seen the stars, never felt the wind, never seen other people - and then it all happened at once. The boy born five years ago in the cellar was totally overwhelmed during his first minutes of freedom ""the world out there is so beautiful""!

I think I'm choking up

So many times, Mohabi, so many times since this story broke. I want to take all the children involved in this horror and hold them close and somehow assure them that there are more good people than bad and that the bad sometimes get away with the worse but it isn't the natural heart of things.:blowkiss:

 

[noZme]

no word yet from the fritzl's 3 grown children who had moved out. i understand not wanting to be associated with pysho dad, but wouldn't they want to defend the mother?

maybe one of them is the source of the anonoymous tip.

 

[Truly]

The newest article at Kronen Zeitung http://www.krone.at/, one of Austria's most important newspapers starts as follows:

"He had never before seen the stars, never felt the wind, never seen other people - and then it all happened at once. The boy born five years ago in the cellar was totally overwhelmed during his first minutes of freedom ""the world out there is so beautiful""!

I think I'm choking up

One of the things that really got to me was the drawing of the sun around the shower head. It looked like some ancient archeological drawing on the wall of a cave. I hope that Elisabeth had been able to tell her children stories of the wild natural world, remembrances of the simple beauties of a river, of flowers, of the sun and moon and stars.

The world out here really is so beautiful.

 

[kuriouskate]

This is so incredibly sad. And I can't help but wonder what else went on? I mean it's insane to even wrap my brain around the thoughts of worse events let alone what we know. But, the thing is Elizabeth could have had more pregnancies. Who knows if there were miscarriages or cripes even more pregnancies that we don't know about? Also it would be interesting to hear from his other adult children. I'm sure they were all molested/abused too at some point. Maybe Elizabeth was his youngest and he knew she would be leaving so he stopped it in one last attempt to keep his sickness fed... and then God forbid...what happened exactly to his children who were also his grandchildren? This family sure had it's share of secrets and usually there is at least one who doesn't listen to the rules and blows. I wonder who all knew what was going on and who told.