Autopsy Report - UCF Osteological Analysis-Duct Tape Info

[USARDOG]

Does the chloroform have to tie in with Caylee's murder? Serious question. I didn't know that it was a given that chloroform was used during Caylee's murder.

Excellent question Mariana... Chloroform is illegal to posses for the average person, was found in unusually high quantities in the trunk of KC's car. Could it have been there for some other purpose? Yes... What the source of the Chloroform is, we do not yet know, however, having the DP put back on the table says to me, the state thinks this a premeditated crime. So, if a mother were planning on killing her 2.5 yo child, I am thinking she would not want her to struggle or suffer... This is a perfect place to bring in the Chloroform... Zanex also could have been a choice, and we would never know about it because there was no tissue recovered. However, we do know there was Chloroform found in the trunk of KC's car.

My personal opinion, I would rate the chances of the Chloroform found in the trunk, being in the trunk for some other purpose, low, and the chances it was used in this crime to subdue Caylee so she could be suffocated with duct tape, high. However, this as I have said, is just my opinion, it will be interesting to see what the state alleges.

 

[Marina2]

Thanks USARDOG. Anything is possible until we know for sure. My post referring to SBS was to point out that the use of duct tape does not rule out KC killing Caylee in a fit of rage. I wasn't giviing it as my firm belief that that is how she was killed. I do believe that rage is what motivated KC to kill Caylee.

 

[gogrannypop]

Text bolded by me.

I don't think the duct tape rules out KC killing Caylee in a rage in her bedroom the night of the 15th. Consider Shaken Baby Syndrome. What precipitates it? Rage. What are the consequences? A myriad of problems (long and short term), some of which are very severe like coma, paralysis, or death. Who are most affected? Children, from infancy to five years old.

I have never been able to imagine KC putting duct tape on Caylee's face for the sole purpose of murdering her. I can see her in such a rage that she would shake her violently or throw her forcefully onto a bed. If KC shook Caylee, not intending to kill her, and caused her to become paralyzed, would she own up to this? I don't think she would. If this happened, KC may have seen it as an injury from which Caylee could never recover. A child dying or paralyzed or slipping into a coma from a brain injury will show horrible symptoms...inability to move or talk, decreasing, shallow respirations, bleeding in the eyes, and others. Sorry to be graphic but my point is that Caylee could have lain like this for a period of time during which KC decided to put an end to it. This is where the duct tape (and the heart sticker) could come into a rage scenario. It wouldn't be hard to place it on her as she wouldn't be able to struggle. I can imagine KC choosing the duct tape over a pillow or strangling her with her own hands. She'd be able to walk away and not see it happen. The heart sticker could say "I'm sorry I hurt you and had to take your life"

This may seem far fetched to many but it really isn't. Thousands of children are victims of Shaken Baby Syndrome every year. It's easier for me to envision this happening than an out and out murder using duct tape. Though I've questioned whether KC could be the kind of person who would murder her child in cold blood, I don't question at all her rage and what her actions would be if she had injured Caylee this seriously because of it. She wouldn't call 911 and get help. If Caylee was hopelessly paralyzed or slipping into a coma, KC may choose to end her life with duct tape. She would cover it up and blame someone else. Never, ever would she allow CA to know that she hurt Caylee to that extent in a fit of rage.

This finally makes sense to me, for the first time. This could have happened the night of the infamous fight between CA and KC.. This is the first scenario that I have been able to completely play out in my head.

KC and CA fight on the eve of the 15th. KC storms off to her room with little Caylee, who is quite possibly crying. KC shakes her while making her grimacing face saying "Shut up"!

Poor Caylee is injured and KC freaks out. Maybe CA heard some kind of noise in the BR, but decided it was nothing because Caylee quieted down.

She did say she listened at the BR door for breathing the next morning. Maybe Caylee didn't pass away until the time when there was a flurry of calls.

And the rest is history. It totally makes sense to me.

 

[USARDOG]

I take it one step further... KC looked up neck breaking etc on her computer... Therefore, I believe there was in her head a plan to kill someone. If that was Caylee or C&G I do not know. I believe part of her plot included chloroform, so she had obtained it from some source. I believe the plan also might have included duct tape, so she obtained that also. It likely would have ended here, but for 2 things, CA decided to start her campaign of "tuff love," and they had a big fight, which KC lost.

I believe in a fit of rage she went into her room with Caylee and in a fit of rage, implemented her plan, the victim being Caylee. I believe she used the chloroform on Caylee, and when she was sufficiently subdued, she put several layers of duct tape over her mouth and nose and finished off the job, and having done a good job, and being very satisfied with herself, she whet to bed.

 

[jon_burrows]

Does the chloroform have to tie in with Caylee's murder? Serious question. I didn't know that it was a given that chloroform was used during Caylee's murder.

I don't think the chloroform has to tie into the murder. The tape is much more telling considering several pieces were placed over her mouth/nose. IMO

 

[fortytwo]

It sounds to me like the tape was wrapped around and around and overlapped, like you see in movies. I can't imagine KC tearing off pieces and applying them one by one. Actually I can but anyway Caylee would have fought her and a child that age, vs a woman KC's size would have left scratches and bruises on KC, something we haven't heard about from witnesses or seen on her nightclub shots.

I think she wrapped it around Caylees head in a fit of rage like we saw in her pounding fist jail house tape.
Poor KC. She'll actually have a better chance of living if she gets the DP than if she's sentenced to LWOP after all the evidence comes out at trial.

The FBI report indicated that they received three separate pieces of tape from the ME. The ME's description of removing the tape mentions cutting away the hair from each end.

It seems most likely that there were three separate pieces of tape that did not go entirely around Caylee's head.

 

[magic-cat]

Yep, and I think that is why she abandoned that car. I really think she wanted to make it look like both her and Caylee were held up at gunpoint or something , and then taken hostage or whatever...KC would have been long gone if given the chance. The only thing CINDEE didn't screw up on was calling 911 JMO

Only problem with this is that she did not actually intend to abandon the car and was trying to secure a way to get gas to the car so she could get it back. The "abandonment" of the car is not necessarily what actually occurred. She may have run out of gas and not been able to work it out to get gas in it without anyone who came with her smelling the car. She was attempting to find a way-she was just too late.

Does the chloroform have to tie in with Caylee's murder? Serious question. I didn't know that it was a given that chloroform was used during Caylee's murder.

It is not a given but the potential for it to have been is very strong. There are the internet searches. There is the boyfriend with it posted on his MySpace page thus indicating she had likely been familiar with something about chloroform. There were the neck-breaking searches. THEN there is the unusually high levels of chloroform in the trunk. Just looking at the circumstancial evidence, and its quite incriminating.

The FBI report indicated that they received three separate pieces of tape from the ME. The ME's description of removing the tape mentions cutting away the hair from each end.

It seems most likely that there were three separate pieces of tape that did not go entirely around Caylee's head.

Well, they went far enough around into her hair to HOLD and also to remain tight enough to stay put and to hold the mandible in place. These pieces could have met at the back of the head as far as we know.

 

[Marina2]

The FBI report indicated that they received three separate pieces of tape from the ME. The ME's description of removing the tape mentions cutting away the hair from each end.

It seems most likely that there were three separate pieces of tape that did not go entirely around Caylee's head.

The Q62-Q64 tape was from the victim (as stated in the report) and the Q66 tape was from the gas can.

From the FBI report p 3794:

"Based on the examinations conducted, the Q64 and Q66 pieces of tape are comparable to one another in all physical attributes and in their chemical composition of their backing and adhesive components. Therefore, they originated from the same source roll of tape or from rolls of tape manufactured in the same manner."

They go on to state that the tape logo (Henkel) is the same on the gas cans and from the victim. And remark that:

"Tape specimens Q64 and Q66 remain under active investigation in the Trace Evidence Unit to determine if any differences exist between the fabric reinforcement component of these tapes."

There was three separate pieces of tape. Apparently, two were too degraded to do testing on so Q64 was used as representative of all three. The logo, however, was apparent on all three pieces. I guess the Q64 piece was covered by the other two. This protected it from the elements and allowed for the adhesive and backing comparisons to be made.

I think the most definitive match will be made when the fabric reinforcement testing is done.

 

[Devon]

Only problem with this is that she did not actually intend to abandon the car and was trying to secure a way to get gas to the car so she could get it back. The "abandonment" of the car is not necessarily what actually occurred. She may have run out of gas and not been able to work it out to get gas in it without anyone who came with her smelling the car. She was attempting to find a way-she was just too late.



It is not a given but the potential for it to have been is very strong. There are the internet searches. There is the boyfriend with it posted on his MySpace page thus indicating she had likely been familiar with something about chloroform. There were the neck-breaking searches. THEN there is the unusually high levels of chloroform in the trunk. Just looking at the circumstancial evidence, and its quite incriminating.



Well, they went far enough around into her hair to HOLD and also to remain tight enough to stay put and to hold the mandible in place. These pieces could have met at the back of the head as far as we know.

In Dr G's report it states that the tape was on the anterior (front) part of the skull, over the mandible (lower jaw) and a 'portion' of the maxilla (upper jaw).

 

[fortytwo]

The Q62-Q64 tape was from the victim (as stated in the report) and the Q66 tape was from the gas can.

From the FBI report p 3794:

"Based on the examinations conducted, the Q64 and Q66 pieces of tape are comparable to one another in all physical attributes and in their chemical composition of their backing and adhesive components. Therefore, they originated from the same source roll of tape or from rolls of tape manufactured in the same manner."

They go on to state that the tape logo (Henkel) is the same on the gas cans and from the victim. And remark that:

"Tape specimens Q64 and Q66 remain under active investigation in the Trace Evidence Unit to determine if any differences exist between the fabric reinforcement component of these tapes."

There was three separate pieces of tape. Apparently, two were too degraded to do testing on so Q64 was used as representative of all three. The logo, however, was apparent on all three pieces. I guess the Q64 piece was covered by the other two. This protected it from the elements and allowed for the adhesive and backing comparisons to be made.

I think the most definitive match will be made when the fabric reinforcement testing is done.

(bold and underline above by me)

The report stated "Duct tape pieces Q62 through (my emphasis) Q64 are physically consistent with each other. Due to their degraded state Q64 was taken as representative of the three pieces recovered from the skeletal remains ..."

I don't think we get any extra hints about placement here. Too bad.

 

[magic-cat]

In Dr G's report it states that the tape was on the anterior (front) part of the skull, over the mandible (lower jaw) and a 'portion' of the maxilla (upper jaw).

This is true, however, it was also in her hair. The tape was in her hair and they had to cut it out. Last time I looked hair is not growing on our anterior skull or on our jaw. So obviously the tape went around into her hair, how far is not yet known. If we had a measurement of the tape then that would be easily determined.

 

[magic-cat]

Actually the tape had to be far enough into the hair to have held in place a mandible which would surely have not remained in place but for that tape. It was into the hair, and as the hair was no longer attached to the skull neither was the tape. It was down around the back of the skull in a mat.

 

[USARDOG]

i have been curious about the placement of the duct tape for a long time, as I think it says a lot about intent. I'm a bit disappointed in the physical description of the location and orientation of the pieces. I guess she was relying on the photos to really tell the tale, and we do not get to see those.

I would have thought the description would have included starting and end point, like; The three pieces of tape ran from the Right anterior portion of the occiput, around the anterior of the mandible, and ended at the posterior portion of the Left temporalis.

 

[beach]

i have been curious about the placement of the duct tape for a long time, as I think it says a lot about intent. I'm a bit disappointed in the physical description of the location and orientation of the pieces. I guess she was relying on the photos to really tell the tale, and we do not get to see those.
I would have thought the description would have included starting and end point, like; The three pieces of tape ran from the Right anterior portion of the occiput, around the anterior of the mandible, and ended at the posterior portion of the Left temporalis.

--emphasis mine

Nope, we don't get to see them, but the jury will. As horrible as it has been to read the details in the autopsy reports, it doesn't hold a candle to looking at the photos. I've always thought it was a verrry long shot that the jury would impose the DP, but those photos are going to extremely damning. They will haunt that jury and cause a lot of sleepless nights. No one, not even AL, is gonna be able to un-ring that bell.

 

[magic-cat]

i have been curious about the placement of the duct tape for a long time, as I think it says a lot about intent. I'm a bit disappointed in the physical description of the location and orientation of the pieces. I guess she was relying on the photos to really tell the tale, and we do not get to see those.

I would have thought the description would have included starting and end point, like; The three pieces of tape ran from the Right anterior portion of the occiput, around the anterior of the mandible, and ended at the posterior portion of the Left temporalis.

Now THAT would have been nice. Even measurements of the pieces would have sufficed. Perhaps those are somewhere else-the measurements, they measure everything so surely they measured those as well-right?

 

[beach]

i'm pretty sure there were specific measurements of the duct tape. sorry, but i'm not up for searching through those reports again tonight. Maybe someone else is willing. I am 90% sure they cited exact measurements.

 

[Hollys G-mom]

Not to mention he "changed his story" at a latter date. So yea, I'd say he probably had lied a lot up until that point. Just MHO though!

 

[TakeNote]

has this been talked about yet?
pg. 9

*remnants of light colored fabric were noted on the anterior aspect of the right scapula and proximal-anterior aspect of the right humerus. the material was removed for possible analysis*

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

In trying to get a better idea of the placement of the duct tape I used the following excerpts from multiple pages from here:
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2009/images/06/19/caylee.anthony.autopsy.pdf

"Dr Goldberger and Dr Garavaglia removed specimens for toxicologic examination, including strands of head hair measuring approximately six inches in length which were tied at the proximal end (near the beginning or point of attachment). These were teased from the mat of head hair which was present initially underneath the skull. . . ."

"The mat of hair which was initially found beneath the skull with strands of hair extending across the calvarium (skullcap or roof of skull) and face consists of medium brown hair. Some strands of hair could be teased from the mat and were at least 6 to 7 inches in length. There were various small defects within this mat of hair, presumably from insect activity, and there are multiple small roots growing through the mat of hair. . . ."

"The calvarium (skullcap) is totally exposed and there is only a very small adherent of soil and leaf litter. No soft tissue remains. Multiple strands of medium brown straight hair extend over the calvarium (skullcap) in the sagittal (vertical plane passing through the body from front to back) and coronal (vertical plane that divides the body into front and back) planes. They are attached to a nest-like mass of matted hair which covers the basilar (base) and lower posterior (back or rear portion) skull, including inferior (below or bottom) portions of the mandible (lower jaw). Plant roots have grown into and over the surface of the hair mat. Attached to the hair and overlying the posterior (back) mandible (lower jaw) and maxilla (upper jaw) are several pieces of overlapping gray tape. The tape has an open weave fabric backing and is delaminating (splitting into layers). The tape is removed and allowed to dry. The matted hair is removed from the skull. Plant roots permeate the mat and there are multiple small roughly circular, irregular defects in the mat, suggestive of insect predation artifact. The hair is permitted to dry pending additional examination. Preliminary examination of the skull reveals no evidence of trauma."

This describes to me a complete tangle of duct tape and matted hair that is interwoven with plant roots covering a great portion of the skull ~ mostly the bottom. It sounds like the matted hair was so entangled with the jaws that it helped keep both the tape and lower jaw in place. But maybe this helps give us a better idea of where and how the duct tape came to be still attached?

Oh, sweet Caylee, I am so sorry . . .

 

[wandering]

Yep, and I think that is why she abandoned that car. I really think she wanted to make it look like both her and Caylee were held up at gunpoint or something , and then taken hostage or whatever...KC would have been long gone if given the chance. The only thing CINDEE didn't screw up on was calling 911 JMO

And that was the only thing KC hadn't been able to stop.