Autopsy Report - UCF Osteological Analysis-Duct Tape Info

[ExpectingUnicorns]

Thank you all (scandi, ThoughtFox, hornswoggled and Marina2) for your thoughtful and thought provoking opinions. You all have calmed my restless heart a bit.

 

[brownflower]

What links it to Casey is the fact that she was the last person known to be with Caylee, and don't forget the heart sticker that was put over the mouth that might have matched a sticker from the house.

It's totally unnatural for a small child to have layers of duct tape over their face. A jury will freak when they hear that and see pictures of the skull. The fact that it was still attached means that whoever did it and put the body in the woods meant business with the murder.

So to me, the "forensic value" isn't just the tape itself, but the circumstantial evidence surrounding it. There is no way to explain-away the duct tape, and no good reason for ever putting something like that on a little child's mouth. Whether Caylee's death was accidental from suffocation or she was killed on purpose, the duct tape is big evidence of abuse and sociopathic behavior.

I agree. In addition, what links Casey to the crime IMO is the fact that she is Caylee's mother. Caylee's primary caregiver, with whom ultimate responsibility for her well-being lies. It is her responsiblity to care for and nurture her child or see to it that she is placed in the best care possible while she is absent. In addition, if someone else harms her child or attempts to harm her child it should be second nature for her to do everything in her power to protect her child.

 

[Tracey276]

I agree 100% with this. The autopsy only concludes the tape was placed before decomposition began, not premortem (perimortem? am still having my morning cofee...).

I said months ago I think she may have died in bed with KC. Being on several 'crunchy parenting' boards myself and learning, a risk for death during co-sleeping is the parent's alcohol and/or drug usage. That they may roll over and suffocate the child being unaware. KC may not be a very large girl, but she was 3-4x Caylee's weight.

I believe the trunk, the duct tape, and the chloroform are all staging agents from someone desperate not to be blamed for Caylee's death. Even if the death was not from cosleeping, or even intentional I still think these were staging because they all are CLASSIC associations with kidnapping. I think it's overthinking to believe she attempted to kill Caylee with duct tape over her nose&mouth, then used or previously used chloroform, then drove around with her in the trunk as seperately come up with plans. Kidnapping-scenario makes a much more reasonable explanation including the placement in the trunk. It's all staging and I know nothing more now after reading the report than I did before.

Here's my problem with those who are under the assumption that Caylee's death was AN ACCIDENT. The way KC lives her life, why wouldn't she have called 911, her parents, her brother, Amy, SOMEONE, ANYONE for help? "OMG, I woke up and Caylee isn't breathing." THAT is NOT a crime. Ok, maybe she thought her mom would blame her. Maybe she was afraid. Maybe, maybe, maybe's. NO WAY! The way she lives her life, IF it were, in fact, any kind of accident, KC certainly would have called for help, if she cared about her daughter because she would have gotten sympathy. If it's an accident, you don't blame the mother or father. Sure, there may be some responsibility laid on the parent. However, after all is said and done, we (people in general) have compassion for any parent who loses a child to an ACCIDENT.

I do think the duct tape was used as a staging for a kidnapping. What the circumstances were, under which Casey killed Caylee, I am not sure yet. However, I know this much. KC is responsible for it, didn't care she did it or that Caylee was gone. She certainly was looking to set it up as a kidnapping AND thought she would get sympathy as a parent of a missing child.

Just for the fact of not caring her child is dead and going on about her life as a party girl without a care in the world, to me is reason enough to put her away for life in prison. And when more damning evidence is released at trial, I believe it will support the DP. This was NO accident.

 

[Tracey276]

I am hesitant to rely too much on the duct tape as solid evidence because of the way it was described in the autopsy report. It said it was delaminating (splitting into layers). It worries me that this makes it sound so degraded that there isn't much forensic value left in it. It's good that it isn't a common type and can be connected to the Anthony household through the same type being on their gas can. But it makes me doubt that if each piece is separating into several layers that any of Casey's (or anyone's) fingerprints can be found on it. . . . and we need something to link it specifically to Casey, don't we?

I'm not too worried about what we have seen already NOT linking KC directly. I believe there is so much we haven't seen yet. I don't know if anyone has already posted this somewhere else. However, this article by Wendy Murphy was very interesting on the fact that the sunshine law allows for so many exceptions to NOT releasing evidence until trial or very close to trial. So, I believe the state DOES have something directly linking KC. I really do. However, I also don't think it is absolutely necessary. If you think about it this way, it makes sense to me. Ask yourself, if NOT KC, with ALL we know, then who? Who had opportunity, means and motive, BUT KC? No one, IMHO! Here is the link.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-...-evidence-yoursquore-not-allowed-to-see/full/

 

[beach]

I'm not too worried about what we have seen already NOT linking KC directly. I believe there is so much we haven't seen yet. I don't know if anyone has already posted this somewhere else. However, this article by Wendy Murphy was very interesting on the fact that the sunshine law allows for so many exceptions to NOT releasing evidence until trial or very close to trial. So, I believe the state DOES have something directly linking KC. I really do. However, I also don't think it is absolutely necessary. If you think about it this way, it makes sense to me. Ask yourself, if NOT KC, with ALL we know, then who? Who had opportunity, means and motive, BUT KC? No one, IMHO! Here is the link.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-...-evidence-yoursquore-not-allowed-to-see/full/

Great read!! thanks for that link! :blowkiss:

eta: Tracey, I linked it (crediting you) on the Smoking Gun Theory thread. I think a lot of posters on that thread would enjoy reading it.

 

[AZlawyer]

I'm not too worried about what we have seen already NOT linking KC directly. I believe there is so much we haven't seen yet. I don't know if anyone has already posted this somewhere else. However, this article by Wendy Murphy was very interesting on the fact that the sunshine law allows for so many exceptions to NOT releasing evidence until trial or very close to trial. So, I believe the state DOES have something directly linking KC. I really do. However, I also don't think it is absolutely necessary. If you think about it this way, it makes sense to me. Ask yourself, if NOT KC, with ALL we know, then who? Who had opportunity, means and motive, BUT KC? No one, IMHO! Here is the link.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-...-evidence-yoursquore-not-allowed-to-see/full/

What bugs me about this is that these exceptions she's discussing would require a motion and an order from the judge. Even if the motion were filed under seal, it would still appear on the docket, as would the motion to allow the motion to be filed under seal. And the motion to intervene by the media. And the motion to bar the video cameras from the hearing. And so on and so on. Has anyone seen anything on the docket that would indicate that any really interesting disclosure is being withheld? We've seen what happens when disclosure is withheld in this case--there's a motion, the Orlando Sentinel intervenes, there's a televised hearing...and we don't get to see the jail video. :banghead: But have any other motions like this been filed?

 

[beach]

What bugs me about this is that these exceptions she's discussing would require a motion and an order from the judge. Even if the motion were filed under seal, it would still appear on the docket, as would the motion to allow the motion to be filed under seal. And the motion to intervene by the media. And the motion to bar the video cameras from the hearing. And so on and so on. Has anyone seen anything on the docket that would indicate that any really interesting disclosure is being withheld? We've seen what happens when disclosure is withheld in this case--there's a motion, the Orlando Sentinel intervenes, there's a televised hearing...and we don't get to see the jail video. :banghead: But have any other motions like this been filed?

ohhhhh! hadn't even considered that, AZ. :blowkiss:


< begs in groveling voice > want to run over to the Smoking Gun Theory thread and let them know too, so I dont' look like I'm talking to myself? :rotfl:

 

[marmar]

Thanks. I'm glad you remember it. So much time has passed that it would be nice to actually hear the things that you know you heard again and in the context of all we know now. I've checked that interview and didn't come across the key statements nor the "tucked into bed" statements. I think the interview was actually much earlier than the Greta interview. None of the very early interviews are available and they are the ones I want to hear the most. These have statements that they made before they thought too much about what had happened.

Check out this link, below the article itself are links to articles and videos that go back as far as July 17, 2008. I saved this a long time ago. You may find what you are looking for in one of these stories.

http://www.wftv.com/news/17169161/detail.html?rss=orlc&psp=news

 

[Devon]

Here's my problem with those who are under the assumption that Caylee's death was AN ACCIDENT. The way KC lives her life, why wouldn't she have called 911, her parents, her brother, Amy, SOMEONE, ANYONE for help? "OMG, I woke up and Caylee isn't breathing." THAT is NOT a crime. Ok, maybe she thought her mom would blame her. Maybe she was afraid. Maybe, maybe, maybe's. NO WAY! The way she lives her life, IF it were, in fact, any kind of accident, KC certainly would have called for help, if she cared about her daughter because she would have gotten sympathy. If it's an accident, you don't blame the mother or father. Sure, there may be some responsibility laid on the parent. However, after all is said and done, we (people in general) have compassion for any parent who loses a child to an ACCIDENT.

I do think the duct tape was used as a staging for a kidnapping. What the circumstances were, under which Casey killed Caylee, I am not sure yet. However, I know this much. KC is responsible for it, didn't care she did it or that Caylee was gone. She certainly was looking to set it up as a kidnapping AND thought she would get sympathy as a parent of a missing child.

Just for the fact of not caring her child is dead and going on about her life as a party girl without a care in the world, to me is reason enough to put her away for life in prison. And when more damning evidence is released at trial, I believe it will support the DP. This was NO accident.

Bolded by me.

Which part of the way KC lives her life convinces you that she would have called for help if it was an accident?

Is it her tendency to be always totally honest about everything, or is it the fact that she faces responsibility so well?

Maybe it's the fact that she's clearly not a coward and not afraid to face even really difficult situations, like telling her friend AH that she'd prefer to spend the day with TL rather than go with AH to collect her new car, or like telling her friends she couldn't go out with them because she was broke or couldn't get a babysitter, rather than be dishonest and say she had to 'work'.

Or perhaps it's the way she never invents her own reality or portrays a certain lifestyle just because she wants everyone to accept and like her. Then again, maybe it's the fact that she has always told her parents everything about where she's been, who she mixes with and what she does - she's never kept anything secret from them.

If it's none of those facets of her excellent character, perhaps it's the way she always owns up to her mistakes and wrongdoings - apparently she's displayed this virtue since childhood because we've heard the tale of how she instantly owned up when a neighbour accused her of allowing her dog to soil the neighbour's front yard. Yes, I can see that KC is someone who would immediately call for help and be prepared to candidly explain to her parents how their treasured only grandchild came to be dead.

 

[Shear22]

What bugs me about this is that these exceptions she's discussing would require a motion and an order from the judge. Even if the motion were filed under seal, it would still appear on the docket, as would the motion to allow the motion to be filed under seal. And the motion to intervene by the media. And the motion to bar the video cameras from the hearing. And so on and so on. Has anyone seen anything on the docket that would indicate that any really interesting disclosure is being withheld? We've seen what happens when disclosure is withheld in this case--there's a motion, the Orlando Sentinel intervenes, there's a televised hearing...and we don't get to see the jail video. :banghead: But have any other motions like this been filed?

I was thinking the same thing when I read the dailybeast blog. To add another thing that bugged me about it, though, is that she goes on and on about how the search warrant for benzodiazepines had to have some evidence that we haven't heard about to back it up. We have heard the evidence: it's KC's IM where she says she can hit Annie up for some Xanax.

 

[impatientredhead]

Bolded by me.

Which part of the way KC lives her life convinces you that she would have called for help if it was an accident?

Is it her tendency to be always totally honest about everything, or is it the fact that she faces responsibility so well?

<snip>

The part of her way of living where she does what is most beneficial to Casey at any given time. The way she takes the path of least resistance time and time and time again. There is no benefit to Casey to hide the body, dodge her mother, deal with the death mobile, and then there are those pesky charges she is facing. It would have been much less work to call 911 if her child drown or any other true accidental scenario.

Think for a moment why Casey didn't take the deal offered by the state earlier on, the one where she would tell them what happened (they thought possible accident at the time) and lead them to the body.... could it be because there was no way to explain an accident that involves the childs mouth and nose being covered in duct tape? Not even Casey of the invisible nanny with a script could come up with a story for that one.

That is what Casey doesn't want to admit, that she killed her child intentionally, not that she is human and a horrible accident occured.

 

[2goaliemom]

What links it to Casey is the fact that she was the last person known to be with Caylee, and don't forget the heart sticker that was put over the mouth that might have matched a sticker from the house.

It's totally unnatural for a small child to have layers of duct tape over their face. A jury will freak when they hear that and see pictures of the skull. The fact that it was still attached means that whoever did it and put the body in the woods meant business with the murder.

So to me, the "forensic value" isn't just the tape itself, but the circumstantial evidence surrounding it. There is no way to explain-away the duct tape, and no good reason for ever putting something like that on a little child's mouth. Whether Caylee's death was accidental from suffocation or she was killed on purpose, the duct tape is big evidence of abuse and sociopathic behavior.

Absolutely Fox!! Although I tend to believe this was no accident--all of the circumstantial evidence will be critical in the conviction of KC--there will be many smoking guns, as KC is not the smart person she thinks she is--and as Wendy Murphy said in her recent article on the case---there is SO MUCH that hasn't been released according to the Sunshine Laws--and there may be many smoking guns (by the way, love your avatar--he is my favorite TV sleuth!!!

 

[Gaia713]

Or leaking decomp fluids possibly from the ears (so awful to think of) which would mean the tape came before decomp/death?

Didn't Kronk report that the bag was partially underwater when he first saw it in August?

 

[Gaia713]

I'm not too worried about what we have seen already NOT linking KC directly. I believe there is so much we haven't seen yet. I don't know if anyone has already posted this somewhere else. However, this article by Wendy Murphy was very interesting on the fact that the sunshine law allows for so many exceptions to NOT releasing evidence until trial or very close to trial. So, I believe the state DOES have something directly linking KC. I really do. However, I also don't think it is absolutely necessary. If you think about it this way, it makes sense to me. Ask yourself, if NOT KC, with ALL we know, then who? Who had opportunity, means and motive, BUT KC? No one, IMHO! Here is the link.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-...-evidence-yoursquore-not-allowed-to-see/full/

I don't know about you folks, but I LOVE circumstantial evidence. Whether they have Casey's prints on the tape or not, she was the last person seen with Caylee. No one EVER reported seeing Caylee other than with Casey. Include her not reporting her daughter missing, the smell in her car, her reaction to the news of a body being found (and I DO THINK the tape will come in during the trial) vs. her reaction to LP's search at Blanchard Park, the fact that NO ONE can seem to locate her 10 sitter, the fictional people she makes up, the lies she told to LE.....I dond't see HOW the circumstances lead to anyone else but this woman being the murderer of Caylee Anthony.

 

[fortytwo]

I don't know about you folks, but I LOVE circumstantial evidence. Whether they have Casey's prints on the tape or not, she was the last person seen with Caylee. No one EVER reported seeing Caylee other than with Casey. Include her not reporting her daughter missing, the smell in her car, her reaction to the news of a body being found (and I DO THINK the tape will come in during the trial) vs. her reaction to LP's search at Blanchard Park, the fact that NO ONE can seem to locate her 10 sitter, the fictional people she makes up, the lies she told to LE.....I dond't see HOW the circumstances lead to anyone else but this woman being the murderer of Caylee Anthony.

The circumstances have never been particularly good for KC's defense.

Occasionally, while browsing for other things, I read through the comments elicited during the very early reports on the case. The reaction I had back then seems to have been nearly universal after hearing these two things...

30 days.
The nanny did it.
​

I thought, (and told Mrs. fortytwo) "How sad. Caylee's gone. Casey's guilty."

Since then we have only had more "circumstantial" evidence leading to the same conclusion.

 

[marmar]

I remember in one of the earliest interviews (a day or two after it hit the news) CA made a big deal about locking the sheds so that Caylee couldn't access them. She explained how she was getting into everything now and you just couldn't be too careful, etc. I would think CA would end her discussion about keeping the sheds locked for Caylee's safety at that point. Instead, CA went on to say that the sheds are locked and that there's no reason for anyone (not just Caylee) to have access. For this reason, she said that the keys aren't available to anyone but her and GA, i.e. not hanging on a nail somewhere in the house. She said only her and GA have or know where the keys to the shed are. I thought it was strange then that she went into so much detail and your post brought that all back to me. Did they suspect something then involving the shed and a possible missing key? Interesting.

I've never been able to find this interview again. I believe it's the same one where she hears Caylee "breathing" through the door. Other statements by CA were in this interview that I've wanted to revisit but have never been able to, like stating "I know where one of them was because I tucked her into bed" when asked where KC and Caylee were on the night of the 15th. That later changed to "I tucked them both in.."

Here's the shed/shovel interview, but no mention in this one about hearing Caylee breathing.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lIp2SE0P_I&feature=related"]YouTube - casey anthony/ cindy speak about the shovel[/ame]

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

Here's the shed/shovel interview, but no mention in this one about hearing Caylee breathing.

marmar, did you watch this? There seems to be some photo doctoring effect going on here . . . ????! Is this what you wanted?

 

[marmar]

marmar, did you watch this? There seems to be some photo doctoring effect going on here . . . ????! Is this what you wanted?

Oh my no LOL I didn't notice that before in this particular video but that was also happening in a different one I watched of a news reporter? Are you referring to the images that cloud over her face? I doubt it was intentional, if so. I just found these on youtube.

 

[wonders]

I am hesitant to rely too much on the duct tape as solid evidence because of the way it was described in the autopsy report. It said it was delaminating (splitting into layers). It worries me that this makes it sound so degraded that there isn't much forensic value left in it. It's good that it isn't a common type and can be connected to the Anthony household through the same type being on their gas can. But it makes me doubt that if each piece is separating into several layers that any of Casey's (or anyone's) fingerprints can be found on it. . . . and we need something to link it specifically to Casey, don't we?

I still wonder if they sent the tape off for DNA testing to see if KC used her teeth to cut it from the roll. However I don't know if DNA would still be there for anyone to find.

 

[BondJamesBond]

FWIW...I checked...and the duct tape/heart sticker thread was closed...so bringing this here.

Earlier on the thread we briefly discussed the timing of the application of the tape. I don't want to litter up this thread if it is OT, but, FWIW, w/ some prodding from Dear Prudence oke: I did a quick run at the ADD given the new, wider range of 0.7 to 2.6 to consider how it might tie in to the bagging opportunities.

Details here: [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3900380&postcount=286"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - In the trunk 2.6 days[/ame]


In summary, depending on assumptions (e.g. time of death) at the short-end of the ADD scale it is possible the body was bagged as early as the afternoon of Tue, 6/17, during Casey's first trip back to G&C's. I'm not suggesting this is when it was done (we know Casey was rather busy with the computer, etc.) only recognizing, pertinent to the duct tape discussion, the possibility that the tape was applied and the body was bagged all in one single act.

Not to go on @ length here, but, as a recap...IMHO, tape being placed post-mortem and before decomposition is not an oxymoron. Rather, IMHO, the 'before decomposition' was intended as a reference to the decomposition of the majority of soft tissues, as in connective tissues, that would've held the mandible in-place, still being intact when the tape was applied.

So...there's at least a plausible case to be made that Casey hadn't looked on Caylee until she got back to G&C's Tuesday afternoon....then...taped, stickered & bagged all in one stop.

ETA: Also dunno how to mention it...but being straightforward...if Casey had any response to the potential fly activity that might've begun upon exposure...that might be a motive to consider more for Casey's 'benefit' IYKWIM where the application of duct tape was involved.