awaiting sentencing phase

[Sherbert]

I almost hate to say this because I believe that Oscar is guilty of murder, so it's all an intellectual exercise to me. But as I understand it, Culpable Homicide isn't dolus eventualis lite.

Judge Masipa, rightly or wrongly accepted Oscar's version, so a verdict of putative self defence. But as Oscar used excess force, and a reasonable man would have chosen a defence which didn't lead to the putative intruder's demise, it's culpable homicide. So there isn't intention to kill UNLAWFULLY and dolus eventualis is knowing that an unlawful death is likely or possible from your action and carrying it out regardless. Sometimes I 'get' this, sometimes I don't, like one of those optical illusion ambiguous drawings.

BBM

Yes, that's exactly how it is. And, to make matters even more confusing, I have seen judgements containing a simultaneous finding of intent and culpable homicide!

 

[Sherbert]

I thought she was going someplace to speak about domestic violence?

Here is the link to Reeva's notes for her speech - I guess Sandown High is a school for underprivileged children.

https://www.facebook.com/Justice4ReevaSteenkamp/posts/599903080088265

 

[foxbluff]

Regarding this quote from @Mr.Fos's post#1233 up thread:

"We also know that the phone therefore left Silver Woods when Oscar was still in the garage. We now learn that Carl had taken it."

Okay, it is now our understanding that Carl ended up with the phone and "messed" with it. However, I don't believe he was the one who removed the phone from OP's home on the morning of Feb. 14th.

Am I remembering correctly that Carl was not there that morning? IIRC he was out-of-town at the time and that was why he wasn't there. ??

 

[Lux et Veritas]

JubJub...

As best I can recall, someone here wrote that s/he felt the verdict appealed from DE to CH was the correct Drinking and taking drugs doesn't mean they could foresee killing someone.

I agree but why I think it should be DE is the moment they got into a car after drinking and using drugs. Anyone in 2014 who can't foresee the possibility, no matter how remote, of killing someone as a result of driving drunk / high is in dangerous denial. That's why there are laws against that, at least in the US.

Colonel, I totally agree with you on principle but I cannot on fact / law.

“INTENT” is the key element here.

OP 100% intended to murder Reeva / “intruder”.

Jub Jub intended to drag race. As a result of his negligence precipitated by alcohol and drugs, he killed four schoolboys and maimed two. While grossly negligent in the extreme, he accidentally killed the kids (such a consequence was never his deliberate goal).

OP’s killing of RS was neither negligent nor accidental.

 

[ColonelMustard]

Colonel, I totally agree with you on principle but I cannot on fact / law.

“INTENT” is the key element here.

OP 100% intended to murder Reeva / “intruder”.

Jub Jub intended to drag race. As a result of his negligence precipitated by alcohol and drugs, he killed four schoolboys and maimed two. While grossly negligent in the extreme, he accidentally killed the kids (such a consequence was never his deliberate goal).

OP’s killing of RS was neither negligent nor accidental.

James Grant agrees with you...

Oscar, Dewani on everyone's lips after Jub Jub ruling by Gershwin Wanneburg

 

[ColonelMustard]

I've certainly seen references on here to "Jub Jub" but I had NO idea until today that he was some famous hip-hop celebrity in SA.

Can anyone "in the know" tell me how the name is pronounced in US English?

Does it rhyme with "tub" as in bathtub, "tube" as in paper towel tube, or something else altogether?

Thanks in advance!

 

[ColonelMustard]

Ok, here goes (hopefully simple but necessarily long, hope you don’t regret asking)! This is my understanding:

...

Footnote

1. My theory is that the call to Security was supposed to be to Stander. Moller shows us that the name associated with the number is something like Johan(n) Pretorius (difficult to read clearly). I’m guessing that Stander had the phone when he was part of the Estate Management Committee, a position he resigned from in the January that year, when it was handed back to be used as the site cell phone.
2. The WhapsApp message exchange with cousin Binge is interesting because there’s no GPRS data connection in effect when it takes place.
3. As an added benefit, because we know which cell tower a phone is connected to (the supplier Vodacom tells us this for each data connection and call) we know where the phone (and hence the user of the phone) is. We also know that the phone therefore left Silver Woods when Oscar was still in the garage. We now learn that Carl had taken it.

So, it’s my belief that the phone data has been telling us a lot more than was presented or understood in court.

Feel free to ask questions because challenging the theory is what it’s all about!

Thanks SO much for taking the time to clarify all of that!!!!!!!!

I do have a follow-up question. You wrote, " So, it’s my belief that the phone data has been telling us a lot more than was presented or understood in court."

What exactly do you think it's telling us?

 

[ColonelMustard]

Here is the link to Reeva's notes for her speech - I guess Sandown High is a school for underprivileged children.

https://www.facebook.com/Justice4ReevaSteenkamp/posts/599903080088265

This is VERY interesting!! Thanks for sharing!

I found some of the comments below it interesting, too. Evidently, other, like me, assumed from what we read/heard that her entire talk was focused on DV.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Tell them what I received, make a small joke about this. And then tell them that receiving those things is very special but not receiving anything doesn't define you as a person or make you less valued!!!

https://www.facebook.com/Justice4ReevaSteenkamp/posts/599903080088265

Now we know that Reeva was expecting something, but that something turned out to be the worst thing imaginable.

I don't know how OP sleeps as night.

 

[JudgeJudi]

OSCAR =

Obnoxious
Sociopath
Cruelly
Assassinated
Reeeva

 

[Lux et Veritas]

That window sill is not on the front of the house. My house is just as luxurious as his but I would not hang them at the front. There are plenty of other places one can hang them in hot weather. What was the temperature on February 13?

Feb 13 2013 Pretoria SA
92F high 63F low

The wind was 2-5mph, very calm, so SOUND would have traveled very well.

http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/FAPR/2013/2/13/DailyHistory.html

 

[Mr Fossil]

Regarding this quote from @Mr.Fos's post#1233 up thread:

"We also know that the phone therefore left Silver Woods when Oscar was still in the garage. We now learn that Carl had taken it."

Okay, it is now our understanding that Carl ended up with the phone and "messed" with it. However, I don't believe he was the one who removed the phone from OP's home on the morning of Feb. 14th.

Am I remembering correctly that Carl was not there that morning? IIRC he was out-of-town at the time and that was why he wasn't there. ??

Simple answer: Carl was there (both OP and Stander had called him and Carl probably called Oldwage who arrived not long after)

 

[JudgeJudi]

It is expected that the prosecution will call June Steenkamp to the stand.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/O...torius-get-jail-time-Experts-divided-20141010

 

[Mr Fossil]

@Mr.Fos I continue to be amazed at the amt of time/effort you put into your special project and the time you take to kindly explain your reasoning to the brd... e.g. post# 1233 upthread.

Now to all. Unlike Moller and those here who have tech skills where these phone records are concerned, I have none. Like Moller, I don't even own a cell phone! So the following thoughts I've had on the subject are probably "baby like."

#1 - Lets say there's no Wi-Fi for OP/RS. If someone who contacts them does so via a Wi-Fi connection, would that call show up differently on OP/RS's phone records?

#2 - Just for the purpose of helping me ask this question: "On that long mgs from RS to OP on January 27, the image of the record used in court indicates she sent the mgs at 2:17 PM." Now, going by the useful transcript of OP's testimony (Ty @ WwMunter) , when OP reads that mgs in Court, the lawyer says of course we add two hours to that time making it at 4:17 PM.

Question: How do you know when to add two hours to a mgs time?

Please understand that I don't need anyone taking time to explain these things to me. I simply wanted to make sure those working on the timelines have already taken these things into consideration.

1. For someone to contact OP/RS via Wi-Fi you are talking about an internet originated connection (e.g. Facetime, which we know OP uses, Skype, WhatsApp etc). This could be received over their phone or iPad (exclude WhatsApp) as a data connection in which case there would be no record of the communication as it's not a 'phone call'. Some applications allow you to communicate from the internet to a person's phone number - this would show up as an incoming 'phone call'. We have all the phone calls only.

2. Moller tells us that the times shown on the WhatsApp messages are out by 2 hours (they're a Universal time, not South African time) so we've adjusted accordingly. The phone records are local South African time, so no adjustment needed.

Be careful looking back at tweets - the time shown is your local time, not the time in the country of origin. So Reeva's tweets in Feb 13 are out by 2 hours to the UK at the moment (this will change shortly when we move our clocks by an hour).

 

[Estelle]

It is expected that the prosecution will call June Steenkamp to the stand.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/O...torius-get-jail-time-Experts-divided-20141010

I am so pleased that June Steenkamp now has the courage to take the stand. It will make the world of difference IMO to the sentencing. It would be a missed opportunity if she didn't. So far it's been all about Pistorius being the victim and Masipa has forgotten about Reeva and how her parents must feel. Good on you, June!

 

[Estelle]

Is there really any point, other than symbolic, for the Steenkamps proceed with a civil trial?

His money has already be spent and/or been secreted away, and they can't touch any money except Oscar's, I don't think.

Maybe that is why June is writing a book. However, surely OP has some money left. After all, he owned three houses, a racehorse, many guns and many cars but maybe the houses were highly mortgaged. If they sued him, surely it could be a debt that he has to pay off on a monthly basis even if he has to borrow money from Uncle Arnie. But I have heard that it is not worth suing anyone if they do not have money. I doubt he will get any sponsors now if he does get a suspended sentence. But I believe he is a Director of the family companies. Maybe he will inherit money from his grandfather too. It will be interesting to see what kind of "work" he does eventually.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Former Constituitonal Court judge Zak Yacoob believes the cases of OP and ‘Jub Jub’ are very different and can’t be equated.

“There’s a difference between the use of a gun and shooting through a bathroom door in which you know one human being is present and your car being used as a weapon to achieve a particular result.”

http://ewn.co.za/2014/10/09/No-similarities-between-Jub-Jub-and-Pistorius-cases---Zak-Yacoob

Absolutely. Clear and concise, but will it mean anything? In my opinion it's anybody's guess.

 

[JudgeJudi]

A few old tweets by Sam Taylor.

Samantha Taylor @samraytay 9 Jan 2013
Some people are so poor, all they have is money

Samantha Taylor retweeted
The Traveling Yogi @klt33 11 Jan 2013

truth

He offered her the world.. She said she had her own

Samantha Taylor @samraytay • 17 Jan 2013
Ha.ha.ha. Having multiple women doesn't make you a man. It makes you Weak

Samantha Taylor @samraytay 23 Jan 2013
When ppl hurt u over again think of them like sandpaper. They scratch & hurt u but in the end, u end up polished and they end up Useless!!

Samantha Taylor @samraytay 1 Feb 2013
Without respect, love is lost. Without caring, love is boring. Without honesty, love is unhappy. Without trust, love is unstable.

 

[Estelle]

Here is the link to Reeva's notes for her speech - I guess Sandown High is a school for underprivileged children.

https://www.facebook.com/Justice4ReevaSteenkamp/posts/599903080088265

IMO Reeva's speech was not about domestic violence. It was about Valentine's Day used to teach personal development eg self-esteem and loving yourself as well as her life's journey in brief. I think she was trying to inspire her audience by saying this has happened to me and this is what I learnt from it eg.

11. Be brave. Always see the positive. Make your voice heard. Your physical seen. And the presence of your mental you felt. Its that culmination of your person that will leave a legacy and uplift.

9. Accept who you are. Acknowledge your absolute 'CAN DOS' in life and work on your 'MAYBES' so that you can be a better person for the ultimate upliftment of those around you.

10. No matter how many people say that they 'love' you, if you do not love your person then you will never step outside of the physical you. The physical you can only do so much if your mental you is lost inside of all the confusion.

But I do not understand this statement:

5. I was in an abusive relationship at the same time (his mother used to abuse him) and all together these factors encouraged my move to Jozi.

If a guy's mother abuses him, it does not necessarily mean that he abused Reeva. But maybe she may have found it tiresome hearing about it or she became his scapegoat.

The only time I read that she was abused was when she was a teenager. She had a first date with a guy and he lured her back to his place in the guise of having to do something there before he took her home. He then abused her. So that was the last date she had with him. I can only guess what that could have been.

I do not think this was the same guy as she had a longer relationship with the first guy mentioned. I think she knew him through her father and horses but I do not think he abused her as it has not come out that he did.

As she begins with talk about Valentine's Day and ends with this comment:

12. I hope that you have the most amazing VD and that you are spoilt with love and roses and chocolates. Go home and tell your parents, siblings, neighbours that they are appreciated. You will go to bed with a happy heart and open mind for the future

IMO it was about Valentine's Day - not domestic violence.

 

[Estelle]

A few old tweets by Sam Taylor.

Samantha Taylor @samraytay 9 Jan 2013
Some people are so poor, all they have is money

Samantha Taylor retweeted
The Traveling Yogi @klt33 11 Jan 2013

truth

He offered her the world.. She said she had her own

Samantha Taylor @samraytay • 17 Jan 2013
Ha.ha.ha. Having multiple women doesn't make you a man. It makes you Weak

Samantha Taylor @samraytay 23 Jan 2013
When ppl hurt u over again think of them like sandpaper. They scratch & hurt u but in the end, u end up polished and they end up Useless!!

Samantha Taylor @samraytay 1 Feb 2013
Without respect, love is lost. Without caring, love is boring. Without honesty, love is unhappy. Without trust, love is unstable.

I must give it to Sam Taylor, these tweets are very philosophical for a girl her age. I think and hope that her relationship with Oscar taught her some life lessons and her future relationships will be more loving, caring, respectful, honest, stable and she meets a man who is more trustworthy.

Do you think that she could be a witness for the sentencing?