AZ - Gabriel Cuen-Buitimea, allegedly shot and killed with an AK-47 by rancher George Alan Kelly, 75, Kino Springs, Jan 2023

[PriorTheCreator]

I see a lot of talk about this case. But I see only incredibly sketchy facts and then a lot of extreme assumption. It feels to me like a lot of political bias being layered onto the situation, where the case is being used to fit some preferred narrative. I would hope that as facts emerge, the bias gets set aside in favor of rational fair application of the law, for all parties.JMO.

I whole heartedly agree.

 

[Ozoner]

How would they get dropped even if so (which I doubt)? If they were no danger or threat to him, what allows for him to murder someone?

I did not suggest or imply that Kelly was allowed to murder anyone.

I stated that the charges would likely be adjudicated without a trial or dropped if the victim turns out to have been affiliated with a cartel as opposed to simply having been an undocumented immigrant.

It is not a statement on whether Kelly's actions were ethical or even on whether they were legally justified. It was a comment only on how the charges would be handled within the criminal justice system.

The reason why I think the charges could get dropped is that the decedent would then be a far less sympathetic victim, so the prosecutor's chances of getting a conviction would go way down. A prosecutor will typically not take a case to trial unless he or she believes it to be a slam dunk. A prosecutor's conviction rate is usually his or her highest priority, so any case where a conviction is not a foregone conclusion will rarely make it to trial. Oftentimes a defendant will be given the chance to plead guilty to a lesser offense.

 

[rsd1200]

I can't read the article you linked because it's behind a paywall for me. Not sure who "Castillo" is but their quote about a wound is clear as mud. JMO.

Deputy Chief Gerardo Castillo. It wasn't paywalled for me, and I'm not a subscriber. Odd. The statement means they were looking at if the victim was shot in the back or chest.

 

[SteveS]

I did not suggest or imply that Kelly was allowed to murder anyone.

I stated that the charges would likely be adjudicated without a trial or dropped if the victim turns out to have been affiliated with a cartel as opposed to simply having been an undocumented immigrant.

It is not a statement on whether Kelly's actions were ethical or even on whether they were legally justified. It was a comment only on how the charges would be handled within the criminal justice system.

The reason why I think the charges could get dropped is that the decedent would then be a far less sympathetic victim, so the prosecutor's chances of getting a conviction would go way down. A prosecutor will typically not take a case to trial unless he or she believes it to be a slam dunk. A prosecutor's conviction rate is usually his or her highest priority, so any case where a conviction is not a foregone conclusion will rarely make it to trial. Oftentimes a defendant will be given the chance to plead guilty to a lesser offense.

Good observations. I have also found it informative, thus far, that the prosecutors have essentially called "BS" on the claim by the 2 guys that Kelly hunted them down like an animal and then shot one of them dead. The DA told us as much when they tossed out the first degree (ie, intentional premeditated) charge in favor of much lesser.

Also, like you are saying, if there's any evidence that these guys were in some sort of ongoing gang-related smuggling activity (and the fact they are getting caught coming back over the border over and over certainly hints in that direction), it has to play a big role in this no matter how it went down, doesn't it? A criminal doing cartel-y things is a violent life that they make violent for everyone, so when one of them gets killed, who is going to blame a private citizen when that activity is repeatedly brought to his property? I think it's going to be fairly impossible to get 12 to say guilty if that's part of the landscape.

 

[pentimento]

JMO, I don't think we can read anything nefarious into the fact that he was caught crossing the border multiple times. It's pretty common, and I believe it was stated that he lived in the border town of Nogales -- so, a local. May be just a measure of desperation. JMO.

Just for comparison, this was in article regarding border crossings in the San Diego region.

Mexican adults are crossing the border again and again in attempts to reach the United States​

The border-wide recidivism rate, or rate of repeat crossers, rose from 7 percent in fiscal 2019 to nearly 26 percent in 2020, according to Jacob Macisaac, Border Patrol agent and spokesperson for the San Diego sector.

But even that does not fully capture the extent of the duplicate counts.

Nearly everyone interviewed by the San Diego Union-Tribune shortly after being expelled to Tijuana said that they had tried crossing the border three or more times in recent weeks in hopes of getting in.

One man, who declined to be identified, said he’d lost count of how many times he tried. He tossed out a guess — 30.

Mexican adults are crossing the border again and again in attempts to reach the United States

Twenty-four hours a day, adults with scuffed shoes and dusted pant legs file out of the Otay Mesa Port of Entry — sometimes alone and sometimes in groups — into Tijuana’s streets.…

www.sandiegouniontribune.com

 

[Laughing]

@pentimento , I am confused. Your post seems to be saying -- if I rob jewelry stores again & again & again, it will become OK for me to rob jewelry stores?

Or do other people need to rob jewelry stores as well for the pattern to fit?

 

[pentimento]

@pentimento , I am confused. Your post seems to be saying -- if I rob jewelry stores again & again & again, it will become OK for me to rob jewelry stores?

Or do other people need to rob jewelry stores as well for the pattern to fit?

Someone had suggested that the fact that the victim had crossed multiple times was reason to suggest involvement in some kind of smuggling or other nefarious activity. I suggest it is not. Sorry, I should have clarified but it followed the post directly, just didn't quote it.

 

[Laughing]

Someone had suggested that the fact that the victim had crossed multiple times was reason to suggest involvement in some kind of smuggling or other nefarious activity. I suggest it is not. Sorry, I should have clarified but it followed the post directly, just didn't quote it.

@pentimento , iirc a Border Patrol officer told the court that the deceased was involved in drug smuggling.

To me, that has more weight than the Daily Mail.

At any rate, repeating a crime does not make each occurance less of a crime -- even when the crime is crossing a border somewhere other than an established checkpoint.

 

[kareylou]

Complicated:

Victim in Kino Springs shooting identified as Nogales, Sonora man

The Santa Cruz County Sheriff’s Office said Friday that it had tentatively identified the man who was shot and killed Monday in the Kino Springs area as Gabriel Cuen Buitimea,

www.nogalesinternational.com

Arizona statute justifies the use of deadly force on one’s own property if the individual believes it “immediately necessary” to prevent an act of trespassing. Several other statutes – known also as “stand your ground” laws – defend the use of physical or deadly force when the individual fears a threat and believes the force is warranted.

deputies returned and, at 6:24 p.m., located the body of a deceased adult Hispanic male on Kelly’s property, 100 to 150 yards from Kelly's home.

federal court records show that Cuen Butimea had a history of illegal border-crossings and deportations in and around Nogales, with the most recent documented case coming in 2016.


Deceased has a history of illegal border-crossing, apparently did not enter the USA legally this time, either.

Accused has a legal right to protect himself, his family, and his home.

imho The Daily Mail is far removed from border Arizona.

Waiting to see how this one plays out.

<modsnip>

Deadly force to prevent TRESPASSING? I would have been dead before I graduated high school. We had many shortcuts across other people’s fields. Is there any age restriction? May people in Arizona shoot a child who runs into their yard to fetch a ball? This can’t be the case.

 

[pentimento]

@pentimento , iirc a Border Patrol officer told the court that the deceased was involved in drug smuggling.

To me, that has more weight than the Daily Mail.

At any rate, repeating a crime does not make each occurance less of a crime -- even when the crime is crossing a border somewhere other than an established checkpoint.

San Diego Union-Tribune was where the article was cited.

You have not understood my argument: Multiple border crosser does not equal drug smuggler. You are making a different argument based on what somebody reportedly said. IIRC a FORMER Border Patrol officer told somebody something about the victim that has not been proven or corrobated by anyone. Done with this.

 

[RANCH]

Deputy Chief Gerardo Castillo. It wasn't paywalled for me, and I'm not a subscriber. Odd. The statement means they were looking at if the victim was shot in the back or chest.

I thought LE had already determined that C-B was shot in the back. Is this quote from an old article? Or is LE backtracking? JMO.

 

[Lilibet]

Snipped, BBM.

This part seems off.

I am not a gun owner, but if I were, and someone pointed an AK-47 at me, I can assure you that that person would not enjoy the benefit of some warning shots fired above his head.

The point I was making in my rather lengthy (TL;dr ) post (see relevant part below) was that Kelly had no urgent need to go out on his porch, confront the men with his gun and risk having an AK-47 or any other gun pointed at him. Why put yourself in harm’s way where you may feel forced to use a weapon and escalate the situation?

Quoting myself:

Questions that arise from the quotes in the link below…Why did Kelly feel the need to confront these men? If they were moving through the trees on his property, why didn’t he stay quiet inside and away from windows as he told his wife to do? He could have discreetly kept an eye on them. There was no need to go on his porch with a gun and take the risk of confronting these men who had AK-47s was there? Especially if they had fired a shot? Yes, his horse was spooked, but he didn’t check on the horse until sunset, after several hours and after border patrol had searched the property. So why was his horse being spooked an urgent reason to confront these men with his gun?

 

[rsd1200]

I thought LE had already determined that C-B was shot in the back. Is this quote from an old article? Or is LE backtracking? JMO.

If it's been found that he shot him in the back, then I did miss that. I was trained in CCL, that shooting a fleeing person is not something I'm allowed to do, and call it self-defense.

 

[RANCH]

If it's been found that he shot him in the back, then I did miss that. I was trained in CCL, that shooting a fleeing person is not something I'm allowed to do, and call it self-defense.

Below is a quote from a couple of days ago by a prosecutor in this case. That's why I asked if the quote you posted is new or from early in this case.

“Mr. Kelly shot an unarmed man in the back in an unprovoked attack as he ran for his life,” Hunley said during her remarks.

Can I assume that your quote is new and LE is backtracking? They really don't know if the victim was shot in the back or in the chest?

Let us know please. JMO.

'Political powder keg': New details emerge as rancher charged with murder of Mexican citizen returns to court

George Alan Kelly, 75, is facing a first-degree murder charge for a man found on Jan. 30 shot dead on his ranch near Kino Springs.

www.azcentral.com

 

[PriorTheCreator]

I did not suggest or imply that Kelly was allowed to murder anyone.

I stated that the charges would likely be adjudicated without a trial or dropped if the victim turns out to have been affiliated with a cartel as opposed to simply having been an undocumented immigrant.

It is not a statement on whether Kelly's actions were ethical or even on whether they were legally justified. It was a comment only on how the charges would be handled within the criminal justice system.

The reason why I think the charges could get dropped is that the decedent would then be a far less sympathetic victim, so the prosecutor's chances of getting a conviction would go way down. A prosecutor will typically not take a case to trial unless he or she believes it to be a slam dunk. A prosecutor's conviction rate is usually his or her highest priority, so any case where a conviction is not a foregone conclusion will rarely make it to trial. Oftentimes a defendant will be given the chance to plead guilty to a lesser offense.

I dont understand.
A murder would be excused because of (an unproven and only rumored) ocupation?
I dont think thats how the law works.

<modsnip>

 

[rsd1200]

Below is a quote from a couple of days ago by a prosecutor in this case. That's why I asked if the quote you posted is new or from early in this case.


Can I assume that your quote is new and LE is backtracking? They really don't know if the victim was shot in the back or in the chest?

Let us know please. JMO.

'Political powder keg': New details emerge as rancher charged with murder of Mexican citizen returns to court

George Alan Kelly, 75, is facing a first-degree murder charge for a man found on Jan. 30 shot dead on his ranch near Kino Springs.

www.azcentral.com

No, you can find that I was unaware that they had made a determination. In the first quote they didn't know yet. I loosely follow a lot of cases on here and sometimes I make these things called errors.

 

[RANCH]

No, you can find that I was unaware that they had made a determination. In the first quote they didn't know yet. I loosely follow a lot of cases on here and sometimes I make these things called errors.

All I'm asking is what is the date of the article you quoted because it's behind a paywall for me and I can't tell if it's new or old.

 

[SteveS]

I dont understand.
A murder would be excused because of (an unproven and only rumored) ocupation?
I dont think thats how the law works.

<modsnip - off topic> murder is a term denoting illegality, courts decide what is a murder and what is not, and we're a long ways from a determination of that. <modsnip>

It is quite unfortunate that this man lost his life. But at this point it's more than fair to try to learn the whole story of who he was, what he did, and how and why this all happened to occur, before rendering judgment on what sort of shooting this was. IMO anyway. Hopefully the truth will become known.

 

[Snoods]

It's crazy the stereotypes being thrown around with no proof whatsoever.

It is not a stereotype. It would be naïve to think someone wearing tactical equipment who has crossed back and forth across our border multiple times was NOT in a cartel. Cartel members cross back and forth multiple times a day.

Violent cartels completely own the border. With millions crossing it has recently become a multi-BILLION-dollar enterprise for cartels. The cartels are a major force in the Mexico economy. Sex, human, child and drug trafficking, also gun smuggling are huge businesses. A single male with a (trafficked) woman and child gets across our border instantly.

An estimated 60% of Latin American children crossing the border are being trafficked for sex or drugs.

The Mexican state of Tlaxcala has been identified as the biggest source of sex slaves to the US. In 2015, five out of 10 of
Homeland Security's "most wanted" sex traffickers were from Tenancingo, in Tlaxcala. There were estimates that one in 10 people from Tenancingo were involved in trafficking.

20 staggering facts about human trafficking in the US

Smuggling Migrants at the Border Now a Billion-Dollar Business

How Porous Borders Fuel Human Trafficking in the United States

Violent drug organizations use human trafficking to expand profits

 

[PriorTheCreator]

It is not a stereotype. It would be naïve to think someone wearing tactical equipment who has crossed back and forth across our border multiple times was NOT in a cartel. Cartel members cross back and forth multiple times a day.

Violent cartels completely own the border. With millions crossing it has recently become a multi-BILLION-dollar enterprise for cartels. The cartels are a major force in the Mexico economy. Sex, human, child and drug trafficking, also gun smuggling are huge businesses. A single male with a (trafficked) woman and child gets across our border instantly.

An estimated 60% of Latin American children crossing the border are being trafficked for sex or drugs.

The Mexican state of Tlaxcala has been identified as the biggest source of sex slaves to the US. In 2015, five out of 10 of
Homeland Security's "most wanted" sex traffickers were from Tenancingo, in Tlaxcala. There were estimates that one in 10 people from Tenancingo were involved in trafficking.

20 staggering facts about human trafficking in the US

Smuggling Migrants at the Border Now a Billion-Dollar Business

How Porous Borders Fuel Human Trafficking in the United States

Violent drug organizations use human trafficking to expand profits

Im sorry. This is false and misinformation.

Is there a surge of fake families at the border? Experts cast doubts

Human trafficking and the growing malady of disinformation

Disinformation has endangered the most vulnerable communities within our world. The anti-trafficking movement in particular has been adversely impacted by disinformation tactics advanced through the QAnon campaign. QAnon's extremist messaging exacerbates ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The Great (Fake) Child-Sex-Trafficking Epidemic

Dispatches from a moral panic

www.theatlantic.com