AZ - Gabriel Cuen-Buitimea, allegedly shot and killed with an AK-47 by rancher George Alan Kelly, 75, Kino Springs, Jan 2023

[SteveS]

<modsnip - quoted post was off topic to the specifics of this case>

It was a shooting. But what type of shooting it was, and what the facts are, and who this dead guy really was, all that's still incredibly murky.

And it sure does seem like there's been a rush to arrest and decide what happened, before there's really been hardly any serious investigation at all to determine the facts. Most of what's being said by each of Kelly, LE, and supposed witnesses really doesn't add up at all.

 

[Ozoner]

I dont understand.
A murder would be excused because of (an unproven and only rumored) ocupation?
I dont think thats how the law works.

Also im taken aback by the victim blaming on this thread. yikes

For every crime, a prosecutor has to make a determination about what the chances are of securing a conviction.

Two things that factor into that determination are 1) how much sympathy the jury is likely to have for the victim and 2) how much sympathy the jury is likely to have for the perpetrator.

A prosecutor may believe that a crime occurred but may think that the chances of securing a conviction are poor. In those case, the prosecutor will often avoid taking the case to trial by allowing the suspect to plead to a lesser offense (such as involuntary manslaughter) or by dropping the charges if a plea deal cannot be reached.

That is how the criminal justice system works.

 

[Snoods]

JMO, I don't think we can read anything nefarious into the fact that he was caught crossing the border multiple times. It's pretty common, and I believe it was stated that he lived in the border town of Nogales -- so, a local. May be just a measure of desperation. JMO.

Just for comparison, this was in article regarding border crossings in the San Diego region.

Mexican adults are crossing the border again and again in attempts to reach the United States​

The border-wide recidivism rate, or rate of repeat crossers, rose from 7 percent in fiscal 2019 to nearly 26 percent in 2020, according to Jacob Macisaac, Border Patrol agent and spokesperson for the San Diego sector.

But even that does not fully capture the extent of the duplicate counts.

Nearly everyone interviewed by the San Diego Union-Tribune shortly after being expelled to Tijuana said that they had tried crossing the border three or more times in recent weeks in hopes of getting in.

One man, who declined to be identified, said he’d lost count of how many times he tried. He tossed out a guess — 30.

Mexican adults are crossing the border again and again in attempts to reach the United States

Twenty-four hours a day, adults with scuffed shoes and dusted pant legs file out of the Otay Mesa Port of Entry — sometimes alone and sometimes in groups — into Tijuana’s streets.…

www.sandiegouniontribune.com

Except this is not someone crossing over, getting caught, expelled and trying again. This is someone living right on the border, crossing back and forth while wearing tactical gear. Supposedly also carrying backpacks and rifles. Different things.

IMO Of course the cartel wants to make an example of this guy. Two random Mexicans showing up and accusing him of “hunting” them? Mess with us and see what happens to you! The cartels are incredibly, incredibly powerful and nobody crosses our border without them.

Former Border Patrol Chief Rodney Scott, who was previously a supervisor in the area, told NewsNation that the area has a 'propensity for violence'.

Everything that I have seen, my professional experience would tell me that that guy was either a scout or an actual guide for a group.

'With the radio, [it's] much more likely he was actually scouting out in advance, or the front-man, but that type of activity and behavior doesn't take place out there unless it's part of the cartel,' he said.

 

[rsd1200]

All I'm asking is what is the date of the article you quoted because it's behind a paywall for me and I can't tell if it's new or old.

it's old. I checked. It appears to be dated as updated 2/22. Your AZ central article is dated the same day.

 

[worm]

The gun safety that I grew up on would say that he is just as responsible for where his “ warning shots” land as with any bullet he fires. Gun ownership=gun responsibly.

 

[Laughing]

Long ago for me, though.

Sheriff's deputies took me to a range to ensure I could wait out the half hour it would take for them to arrive to help me.

They explained that most border-crossers just want to get north to their relatives/friends in the USA.

However -- when criminals cross, those people are usually ready for a crime of opportunity on the way.

Those are the people posing the threat.

jmho and just my lived experience near the site of this event.

<modsnip - quoted post was removed>

 

[Snoods]

<modsnip>

Long ago for me, though.

Sheriff's deputies took me to a range to ensure I could wait out the half hour it would take for them to arrive to help me.

They explained that most border-crossers just want to get north to their relatives/friends in the USA.

However -- when criminals cross, those people are usually ready for a crime of opportunity on the way.

Those are the people posing the threat.

jmho and just my lived experience near the site of this event.
<modsnip>

Ahh @Laughing, I’m so sorry. It is indeed frustrating. Thank you for speaking out!

 

[FLmom777]

How would they get dropped even if so (which I doubt)? If they were no danger or threat to him, what allows for him to murder someone?

A group of armed cartel members are definitely a threat.

 

[NuttMegg]

'Political powder keg': New details emerge as rancher charged with murder of Mexican citizen returns to court

George Alan Kelly, 75, is facing a first-degree murder charge for a man found on Jan. 30 shot dead on his ranch near Kino Springs.

www.azcentral.com

States Kelly heard a gun shot when he was having lunch with his wife. And one of the men in the group he saw, pointed a gun at him, and he shot over their heads.
It’s sounds to me like the man who was shot was running from drug traffickers / Cartel when they shot him, not Kelly.

It makes no sense, IMO, to jump to the conclusion that the property owner, Kelly, murdered the illegal immigrant. With no real evidence I can’t believe he was even arrested. Based only on the word of the other immigrants, who were also most likely running from the criminals? Did I miss something? I’ll wait.

Just saying, most people can't see a handgun "100-150 yards" away.

 

[NuttMegg]

'Political powder keg': New details emerge as rancher charged with murder of Mexican citizen returns to court

George Alan Kelly, 75, is facing a first-degree murder charge for a man found on Jan. 30 shot dead on his ranch near Kino Springs.

www.azcentral.com

States Kelly heard a gun shot when he was having lunch with his wife. And one of the men in the group he saw, pointed a gun at him, and he shot over their heads.
It’s sounds to me like the man who was shot was running from drug traffickers / Cartel when they shot him, not Kelly.

It makes no sense, IMO, to jump to the conclusion that the property owner, Kelly, murdered the illegal immigrant. With no real evidence I can’t believe he was even arrested. Based only on the word of the other immigrants, who were also most likely running from the criminals? Did I miss something? I’ll wait.

He just happened to have his AK47 at hand while "having lunch"? If the murdered victim was unarmed, and no where near Kelly, ie at least 1 to 1.5 football fields away, where is the threat? BTW, the "word of immigrants" is as valid as Kelly's. Probably more, in this case. IMO

 

[neesaki]

Just saying, most people can't see a handgun "100-150 yards" away.

What handgun?
Also, in response to your other post, Kelly had been having ongoing issues with the illegal immigrants on his property. If you read the links posted in this thread, he had made multiple calls before this to LE / Border Patrol, asking for their assistance.
If you looked out your window, and routinely saw groups of men trespassing on your property, you wouldn’t feel threatened? I know I would.
In that case, I would probably carry my gun around with me too.

 

[RANCH]

He just happened to have his AK47 at hand while "having lunch"? If the murdered victim was unarmed, and no where near Kelly, ie at least 1 to 1.5 football fields away, where is the threat? BTW, the "word of immigrants" is as valid as Kelly's. Probably more, in this case. IMO

If you turn things around then Mr Kelly wouldn't be a threat to the migrants because he was the same distance away. JMO.

 

[NuttMegg]

What handgun?

You're right. Amended: Just saying, IMO no one can see a handgun or a rifle or gun of any type from 100-150 yards away. And "through the trees". 'Political powder keg': New details emerge as rancher charged with murder of Mexican citizen returns to court

 

[NuttMegg]

What handgun?
Also, in response to your other post, Kelly had been having ongoing issues with the illegal immigrants on his property. If you read the links posted in this thread, he had made multiple calls before this to LE / Border Patrol, asking for their assistance.
If you looked out your window, and routinely saw groups of men trespassing on your property, you wouldn’t feel threatened? I know I would.

He is not above the law. Shot them in the back? He was so threatened that he shot 3 people in the back with an AK47, who were 1 to 1.5 football fields away? IMO
"NOGALES — The prosecuting attorney in the case of the Nogales area rancher who is facing a first-degree murder charge alleged on Wednesday that the rancher shot and killed a Mexican citizen in the back as he ran for his life.

Kimberly Hunley, chief deputy Santa Cruz County Attorney, alleged that George Alan Kelly shot the unarmed man in an “unprovoked attack” during her remarks at a court hearing at Nogales Justice Court. At least two other people were with the Mexican national as he fled and they were shot at as well, Hunley said."

'Political powder keg': New details emerge as rancher charged with murder of Mexican citizen returns to court

George Alan Kelly, 75, is facing a first-degree murder charge for a man found on Jan. 30 shot dead on his ranch near Kino Springs.

www.azcentral.com

 

[worm]

What handgun?
Also, in response to your other post, Kelly had been having ongoing issues with the illegal immigrants on his property. If you read the links posted in this thread, he had made multiple calls before this to LE / Border Patrol, asking for their assistance.
If you looked out your window, and routinely saw groups of men trespassing on your property, you wouldn’t feel threatened? I know I would.
In that case, I would probably carry my gun around with me too.

If it was a matter of routine then it doesn’t sound like LE has done much. I wonder how far this goes back?

 

[rsd1200]

The gun safety that I grew up on would say that he is just as responsible for where his “ warning shots” land as with any bullet he fires. Gun ownership=gun responsibly.

If someone was pointing an AK at me, as it was said at one point, then I'd not be firing warning shots. I was taught that you do not fire warning shots, especially if you are in fear for your life.

In most states, warningshots are prohibited in self-defense situations by law. This law is commonly known as reckless discharge of a firearm. Warning Shots in Self Defense: Considerations and Consequences

 

[RANCH]

He is not above the law. Shot them in the back? He was so threatened that he shot 3 people in the back with an AK47, who were 1 to 1.5 football fields away? IMO
"NOGALES — The prosecuting attorney in the case of the Nogales area rancher who is facing a first-degree murder charge alleged on Wednesday that the rancher shot and killed a Mexican citizen in the back as he ran for his life.

Kimberly Hunley, chief deputy Santa Cruz County Attorney, alleged that George Alan Kelly shot the unarmed man in an “unprovoked attack” during her remarks at a court hearing at Nogales Justice Court. At least two other people were with the Mexican national as he fled and they were shot at as well, Hunley said."

'Political powder keg': New details emerge as rancher charged with murder of Mexican citizen returns to court

George Alan Kelly, 75, is facing a first-degree murder charge for a man found on Jan. 30 shot dead on his ranch near Kino Springs.

www.azcentral.com

Mr Kelly has been accused of shooting one man in the back not three.

I'm waiting to see if the state has sufficient evidence to prove that's what really happened. So far they have only given us unreliable eye witness accounts. JMO.

 

[NuttMegg]

So Kelly shot at them at least 9 times?
------------------------------------
"Chief Deputy County Attorney Kimberly Hunley told the judge that prosecutors intend to prove second-degree murder — that Kelly had no basis for “intentionally, knowingly, or under circumstances recklessly” shooting an AK-47 rifle toward eight or so unarmed migrants about 80 to 100 yards (meters) away.

“There is no justification for shooting an unarmed man in the back,” Hunley told the judge."
----------------
"D.R.R. testified that he and Cuen-Buitimea, whom he called a friend, had paid a guide for passage across the border on Jan. 30 and were heading to Phoenix. He also said neither of them was carrying a weapon, and the guide had left them."
---------------------
"The man said he believed he heard 15 or 16 shots fired as the group ran. A sheriff’s deputy testified that investigators recovered nine shell casings near Kelly’s south-facing back porch."

Judge OK's Arizona rancher trial in Mexican migrant killing

A judge has ruled that an Arizona rancher accused of shooting at a group of migrants on his property and killing a man will face trial on second-degree murder and aggravated assault charges.

apnews.com

 

[NuttMegg]

If someone was pointing an AK at me, as it was said at one point, then I'd not be firing warning shots. I was taught that you do not fire warning shots, especially if you are in fear for your life.

We don't know if the victims, a party of 8, were in truth aiming an AK at the perpetrator. His account has varied. IMO

The person he allegedly killed was shot in the back.

 

[rsd1200]

He just happened to have his AK47 at hand while "having lunch"? If the murdered victim was unarmed, and no where near Kelly, ie at least 1 to 1.5 football fields away, where is the threat? BTW, the "word of immigrants" is as valid as Kelly's. Probably more, in this case. IMO

I keep a firearm handy. We've had people thieving and, trespassing. We are rural, and it takes a bit for LE to get out to some folks' houses.