AZ - Gabriel Johnson, 8 months, 26 Dec 2009 - last seen in Texas - #13

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There's no maybe about it. She has not told as much as "she" can. Where's the composite? If she spent 3 days getting to know these people, she HAS to know more than what she has divulged.

Ok... I feel like I am under attack here. Not just by you but by several posters. I meant to say, which I have said many time but was not clear about in my post that I think it's possible she has told them as much as she can that would help find the people who might have Gabriel (sorry to be wordy)... I did not mean to say she hasn't lied about t hings. I guess I don't really believe there was any couple in the park nor that she spent three days with them nor that any composite will help. I'm not even convinced there was a couple! It could just be Gabriel was handed off to one person! It could be that if it was an under ground they say 'leave the baby in the car and walk inside the restaurant at 8:05 pm, we will walk up the second we see you do that .... blah blah blah"!

We don't know, do we??????
 
One of the reasons my hopes are fading after reading today's interview with Bob Johnson is that I believe that EJ is facing much more than 20 years. It is my understanding is that in Az, kidnapping of a minor under 15 is considered a dangerous crime against children and so all her sentences would have to be served consecutively. I could be wrong, but I believe that if she were convicted of everything she's charged with, she could be facing 40-60 years in prison. I am sure her attorney has told her that too.

So, if I am right, she knows she could be in prison for a long time.. but yet she's not willing to work out a deal with the prosecutors. That tells me that she probably doesn't have any good information to offer in exchange for the plea deal.


I would appreciate it if someone more level headed than I right now could look closely read the info carefully at this link and tell me if I am reading the laws wrong:
http://law.justia.com/arizona/codes/title13/00604-01.html

I was also just reading in the Az revised statutes. And I think you are reading it right. Or I should say I am reading it the way you are.
 
In trying to keep my hope alive, there are a few shady things that still really make me wonder ... here is something snipped from a few articles below:
.

TY for that post and bolding. wow! very good points.
 
In my opinion I think that maybe she needs to see Logan, there is a fine line between love and hate, obviosly she had feelings for him at some point. If you boil it down ES is a 23 yr old woman but given here background maybe she hasn't matured beyond a young teenager. I believe she might be scared and doesn't want to show as being weak. Sorry for rambling just thinking out load.
 
Ok one thing that bothers me about lots of this story..is TS saying that EJ said all of these "facts"? Particularly about the description of the couple?

Is this correct? or am I missing something?

Eliz said the same thing to GMA in a phone interview this weekend. Video on GMA this morning. Story too. I linked it in this morning if anyone wants to look in my posts from this morning.
 
The fact that the Smiths knew EJ was threatening to run and didn't notify Logan or the authorities make them accessories in whatever has happened. IMO

Darn right. I think the S's should be facing charges themselves soon. Imoo those 2 played interference for whatever happened to Gabriel.
 
If only the grandfather could pay for a good lawyer! A good one could work a deal to motivate her to tell where Gabriel is. I can't believe what he said to her! Do we all want that baby found even if Elizabeth doesn't get a minimum of 20 years in prison? I do. I mean alive, of course. I believe he is alive.
 
Has anyone thought that LE may be saying they are losing hope and looking into a homicide, because they want those involved to let down their guard. Maybe they are watching some people and want them to relax, so that they may lead them to Gabriel.
In the best scenario I hope that's true. I'll keep praying! :prayer:


Have a good night everyone :seeya:
 
<snip>
http://dartcenter.org/content/children-underground-4

There really seem to an awful lot of similarities here to what EJ and TPS allegedly did and/or were conspiring to do with what "Underground" Networks actually do. The thing about telling the potential underground client to leave their car one place, then having one of the undergrounders take the car and drive it all over town to throw the police off way after the actual suspect is long gone really made me stop and think. Almost makes you wonder too about the alleged docs I believe TPS supposedly had EJ give her too. Was TPS possible the intermediary at one point? Did that fall apart and EJ continued on with her mission without TPS, keeping her in the dark about what she was really doing with someone else's help? The GPS thing really makes me wonder. If EJ was already long gone from SA by the time the car was gone (and we know she was), then HOW in the world could the GPS and her cell phone come up with information alleging she was headed toward Mexico at one point and also went through Victoria, TX??? Something is very very wrong here. It really sounds as if someone else was definitely helping and involved but I'm not sure Tammi was the only one (or even the most informed one on the plan). EJ knew way before she ever left AZ she was going to SA because she booked the hotel for a week beforehand. There was definitely a plan there somewhere and likely with someone else involved. I'd love to see her phone/computer records before she ever left AZ. There was also speculation on one of the articles that somehow EJ had actually gotten/received another phone ... one that was never recovered by LE which may actually hold all the truly incriminating records of where she was and who she called. I pray LE has looked into that ... leave no stone unturned.


Thank you for the post - yes, it all seems hauntingly similar. The one thing I have never read regarding the underground stuff is what they do when someone conencted gets caught ... let's say the parent who has abducted a child. Surely, they have developed strategies to protect their own integrity?
 
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/2576139/missing_baby_gabriel_mom_charged_w_pg2.html?cat=25

<respectfully snipped>
(My concerns in bold)

Now these regarding the "Underground Network":

The underground starts with a phone call - from a parent, or, sometimes, an intermediary: a social service agency, a church, or even a law enforcement official.

Once contact is established, and the caller appears to be legitimate, Yager asks for documents, preferably mailed in advance of a face-to-face meeting with her in Atlanta. And also, bring the children, she says, so she can interview them on videotape.

If Yager decides to help, the mother and children are sent to a "safe house" until plans are finalized to settle them in a place where the parent can obtain a job.

Of course, all of this presupposes that the parent is, in Yager's words, "runnin' material."

That usually means someone who is strong-willed and resilient, and with financial resources. Yager often has been accused of helping only rich people, but primarily, she says, she helps people who can help themselves.

She requires that her families liquidate their assets, which they will use to live on underground. Sometimes those without sufficient funds are told to wait, and save their money, before she will help them.

Over the years, Yager's contacts in the underground have provided her families with aliases, disguises, fake passports and falsely registered vehicles.

Before going underground, she tells her families to leave a trail of confusing "clues," such as random phone calls all over the country, since investigators will surely pore over telephone records. She asks for credit cards so her contacts can make small charges on them - again in stores in different states, to confuse police.

Some of those who have entered Yager's underground say they have been asked to leave their cars at specified places. She will then have her contacts drive the vehicles all over the country, so that police spend their time tracking the license plate - even though the owner is long gone.

She will often, during telephone conversations, refer to her mothers as "Sally."

She keeps track of her Sallys by area code and number of children, Sally-609-2 or Sally-201-3, until the actual vanishing act occurs. By that time, her contacts will have prepared the fake papers, the new names, the new resumes.

Many of the people who have entered her underground take the names of people who have died.

People who were born in one state and died in another are frequently used. Since states often don't cross-reference that information, a fleeing mother or father can send away for a copy of a birth certificate - saying they need it, for example, to register for college courses - and then use it to get a passport, bank account or credit cards.

At the same time, her families are constantly navigating through her network, until they reach their final destination - often beyond U.S. borders.

"I can't hide people in this country anymore," Yager says flatly. She may not be telling the whole truth, but certainly, her organization - once a necklace of farms, motels and churches strung across the country - has expanded abroad.

http://dartcenter.org/content/children-underground-4


I'm quoting you again because I wanted to isolate just this part.
 
Thank you for the post - yes, it all seems hauntingly similar. The one thing I have never read regarding the underground stuff is what they do when someone conencted gets caught ... let's say the parent who has abducted a child. Surely, they have developed strategies to protect their own integrity?

She can be tough on parents who find the underground unbearable, and will cut off all contact with them if it appears they are becoming a "security risk." That's because if they are caught, or turn themselves in, they might name names, she says.

And if a family is caught, they're pretty much on their own, although Yager will submit depositions on their behalf in any court trial on abduction charges. And occasionally, she will testify, although she claims she's such a good witness prosecutors are reluctant to call her.

http://dartcenter.org/content/children-underground-4
 
In trying to keep my hope alive, there are a few shady things that still really make me wonder ... here is something snipped from a few articles below:

[snip]

Respectfully snipped for space.

Great work!!! My concerns about the underground are that EJ might have been headed down this path originally with TPS but I think she called an audible, so to speak.

If the underground is involved then:

1. why hire an external babysitter and create that exposure?

2. why stay in 2 hotels in San Antonio and not use the safe house?

3. why not disappear with Gabriel and use the underground to hide?

4. why just take the bus to Florida if the underground was working with her?

5. why didn't the underground provide EJ with an alibi, either setting up a kidnapping or wrecking or burning the car? -- so many possibilities with those resources.

It raises so many questions even though it adds a cloak of secrecy and plausibility -- like talking about the mob or drugs.

I think the underground idea was a cover story for TPS secreting Gabriel away but if she did that then she has placed herself in jeopardy getting SO involved.

I think EJ did her own thing
 
In trying to keep my hope alive, there are a few shady things that still really make me wonder ... here is something snipped from a few articles below:

On December 14, Elizabeth petitioned for paternity tests. She left Arizona with Gabriel on December 18 in her Oldsmobile with a Garmin Global Positioning System (GPS) allegedly given to her by Tammi Smith. Why would Tammi give Elizabeth a GPS?

Police arrested Elizabeth on December 30 at a Miami Beach youth hostel and found her abandoned car in San Antonio on January 5, 2010. What took them so long? The car was in full view at a Motel 6 for days. Or was someone using it for a few days? Where is the Garmin GPS? Why was Elizabeth's GPS signal picked up in Victoria, Texas on December 27? Why was her cell phone signal picked up heading for Mexico? Where is her cell phone now? The grapevine has it that Tammi Smith allegedly makes trips to Mexico.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/ar...gabriel_fishy_events_surround_pg2.html?cat=25

Missing baby Gabriel was last seen on December 26. Eyewitnesses saw him with his mother in San Antonio at a hotel and a Six Flags amusement park. On December 27, Ms. Johnson sent a text message to Mr. McQueary saying she had killed their son. She stopped making verbal cell phone calls to Jack and Tammi Smith but she did text a message telling them that she and the baby were fine.

On the same day, Tammi Smith friend Yami Virgin of KABB from Fox 29 told Tammi that the Garmin navigation system in Ms. Johnson's Oldsmobile had shown a signal in Victoria, Texas, which is 96 miles (156km) south of San Antonio. However, surveillance video showed Ms. Johnson on December 26 in San Antonio— without baby Gabriel— boarding a bus bound for Daytona Florida, a distance of 1046 miles (1684km). Some authorities conclude that the baby boy is in Victoria. The Garmin was found with the Oldsmobile. Police are analyzing it.

A court document states that a cell phone signal (or the Garmin signal?) for the Elizabeth Johnson was last caught moving toward Mexico. Ms. Johnson was arrested on December 30, 2009. Was her cell phone on her? Authorities did not find her Oldsmobile until six days later, January 5, 2010. Between those dates, was the Oldsmobile really sitting outside a Motel 6 near a Tornado Bus Station off Interstate 35 while authorities were scrambling around for days looking for it?

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/2576139/missing_baby_gabriel_mom_charged_w_pg2.html?cat=25

(My concerns in bold)

Now these regarding the "Underground Network":

The underground starts with a phone call - from a parent, or, sometimes, an intermediary: a social service agency, a church, or even a law enforcement official.

Once contact is established, and the caller appears to be legitimate, Yager asks for documents, preferably mailed in advance of a face-to-face meeting with her in Atlanta. And also, bring the children, she says, so she can interview them on videotape.

If Yager decides to help, the mother and children are sent to a "safe house" until plans are finalized to settle them in a place where the parent can obtain a job.

Of course, all of this presupposes that the parent is, in Yager's words, "runnin' material."

That usually means someone who is strong-willed and resilient, and with financial resources. Yager often has been accused of helping only rich people, but primarily, she says, she helps people who can help themselves.

She requires that her families liquidate their assets, which they will use to live on underground. Sometimes those without sufficient funds are told to wait, and save their money, before she will help them.

Over the years, Yager's contacts in the underground have provided her families with aliases, disguises, fake passports and falsely registered vehicles.

Before going underground, she tells her families to leave a trail of confusing "clues," such as random phone calls all over the country, since investigators will surely pore over telephone records. She asks for credit cards so her contacts can make small charges on them - again in stores in different states, to confuse police.

Some of those who have entered Yager's underground say they have been asked to leave their cars at specified places. She will then have her contacts drive the vehicles all over the country, so that police spend their time tracking the license plate - even though the owner is long gone.

She will often, during telephone conversations, refer to her mothers as "Sally."

She keeps track of her Sallys by area code and number of children, Sally-609-2 or Sally-201-3, until the actual vanishing act occurs. By that time, her contacts will have prepared the fake papers, the new names, the new resumes.

Many of the people who have entered her underground take the names of people who have died.

People who were born in one state and died in another are frequently used. Since states often don't cross-reference that information, a fleeing mother or father can send away for a copy of a birth certificate - saying they need it, for example, to register for college courses - and then use it to get a passport, bank account or credit cards.

At the same time, her families are constantly navigating through her network, until they reach their final destination - often beyond U.S. borders.

"I can't hide people in this country anymore," Yager says flatly. She may not be telling the whole truth, but certainly, her organization - once a necklace of farms, motels and churches strung across the country - has expanded abroad.

http://dartcenter.org/content/children-underground-4

There really seem to an awful lot of similarities here to what EJ and TPS allegedly did and/or were conspiring to do with what "Underground" Networks actually do. The thing about telling the potential underground client to leave their car one place, then having one of the undergrounders take the car and drive it all over town to throw the police off way after the actual suspect is long gone really made me stop and think. Almost makes you wonder too about the alleged docs I believe TPS supposedly had EJ give her too. Was TPS possible the intermediary at one point? Did that fall apart and EJ continued on with her mission without TPS, keeping her in the dark about what she was really doing with someone else's help? The GPS thing really makes me wonder. If EJ was already long gone from SA by the time the car was gone (and we know she was), then HOW in the world could the GPS and her cell phone come up with information alleging she was headed toward Mexico at one point and also went through Victoria, TX??? Something is very very wrong here. It really sounds as if someone else was definitely helping and involved but I'm not sure Tammi was the only one (or even the most informed one on the plan). EJ knew way before she ever left AZ she was going to SA because she booked the hotel for a week beforehand. There was definitely a plan there somewhere and likely with someone else involved. I'd love to see her phone/computer records before she ever left AZ. There was also speculation on one of the articles that somehow EJ had actually gotten/received another phone ... one that was never recovered by LE which may actually hold all the truly incriminating records of where she was and who she called. I pray LE has looked into that ... leave no stone unturned.

That article refers to an underground for women and children who are abused by the father. That was not the case here. Elizabeth was the abuser.

The article says the person has to provide their court documents as part of their proof. Elizabeths court documents all say she was the abuser.

At most, Elizabeth read this article or one like it, and used it in weaving her alibi.
 
Ok... I feel like I am under attack here. Not just by you but by several posters. I meant to say, which I have said many time but was not clear about in my post that I think it's possible she has told them as much as she can that would help find the people who might have Gabriel (sorry to be wordy)... I did not mean to say she hasn't lied about t hings. I guess I don't really believe there was any couple in the park nor that she spent three days with them nor that any composite will help. I'm not even convinced there was a couple! It could just be Gabriel was handed off to one person! It could be that if it was an under ground they say 'leave the baby in the car and walk inside the restaurant at 8:05 pm, we will walk up the second we see you do that .... blah blah blah"!

We don't know, do we??????

LE just confirmed a few days ago that all Elizabeth has told them is when she want water or to go to the bathroom. She has told them *nothing* about what happened to Gabriel.

It's linked in my posts from yesterday.
 
Originally Posted by butterfly1978 View Post
Has anyone thought that LE may be saying they are losing hope and looking into a homicide, because they want those involved to let down their guard. Maybe they are watching some people and want them to relax, so that they may lead them to Gabriel.

You were reading my mind, because after all my explanations, I wondered the same thing. Or they want the Smith's to know this is really going to get serious if they end up charging Elizabeth with murder. I can't really decide which effect it would have? I think the first because the Smith's would automatically take advantage and try to shift all the blame back away from themselves knowing everyone is going to go for blood as far as Elizabeth is concerned. There's a danger in getting too emotional about these cases and too worried about demonizing the perpetrator. The danger is in overlooking anything leading the opposite direction. The public will look towards the demonization.
 
That article refers to an underground for women and children who are abused by the father. That was not the case here. Elizabeth was the abuser.

The article says the person has to provide their court documents as part of their proof. Elizabeths court documents all say she was the abuser.

At most, Elizabeth read this article or one like it, and used it in weaving her alibi.

I have read (If I remember right) that a lot of times these women make false accusations toward their partners.
 
snipped~

At a press conference Monday, McQueary told FOX 10 that Johnson had a tendency to go into uncontrollable rages. He is certain she is capable of killing a baby, but he is clinging to hope that Gabriel is still alive


and this~

The Tempe Police Department says that when baby Gabriel first went missing, they had "strong indicators" that he was still alive and in good health. But they say now, those indicators are not nearly as strong.





more @link~
http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/dpp/news/local/tempe/fears-of-baby-gabriel's-death-mount-1-18-2010

Well it appears as though EJ spent most of her time in that hotel room so if she did do something to Gabriel on the 26th in a fit of rage, the signs would be in that room and obviously they are not. It appears that she checked into the Quality Inn hotel that day so she did leave the Homegate suites hotel at some point but was Gabriel with her? We also know that housekeeping went into the room at the Homegate on the 26th and neither of them were there and they said they thought they had checked out. This would indicate to me that they were in the room every other day the housekeeping staff came in.

Nancy Grace's blog describes the check in at what I believe must have been the second hotel...

As investigators open a missing persons case for Gabriel Johnson in San Antonio, we are learning more about mother Elizabeth Johnson’s possible movements during her time in San Antonio from a hotel clerk who checked Johnson into one of the hotels. The clerk, who wishes to remain anonymous, says Johnson checked in under a different name and believes Johnson had a Texas ID.

The clerk told us the hotel swipes identifications and the computer puts the information on the screen for the employee, but in order to look up Johnson’s information they need the alleged alias that Johnson used to check in. That name has not been revealed. The clerk says they never saw Elizabeth Johnson with a baby, and Johnson even allegedly brought in a baby car seat and was holding it behind the desk so the clerk couldn’t tell if the baby was inside. The clerk says the only other time they saw Johnson was when Johnson needed some towels. We also learn from the clerk that there is a dumpster in the back of the hotel and is allegedly emptied twice a week. Cops have spoken to the clerk, who has relayed all of this information.


http://nancygrace.blogs.cnn.com/2010/01/13/hotel-clerk-says-elizabeth-johnson-used-different-name/

So did she have Gabriel with her at the second hotel? Was he in that car seat? How could these hotels not have surveillence video in their lobby?!? It appears she was in possession of some pretty good quality fake ID at that point though because they swiped it and it obviously went through okay.


As for LE feeling like the indicators are not as strong, let's look at what they've been working on the last few days. I think the search warrant at the Smith's might not be yielding the kind of information that they were hoping to find and I really think that medicine dispenser set them and certainly a lot of us back in our hope that he was alive.

JMO
 
Darn right. I think the S's should be facing charges themselves soon. Imoo those 2 played interference for whatever happened to Gabriel.

I agree, but Elizabeth is the one who committed the final act that sealed Gabriel's fate, whatever that may be.
 
Eliz said the same thing to GMA in a phone interview this weekend. Video on GMA this morning. Story too. I linked it in this morning if anyone wants to look in my posts from this morning.

Hold on just one second here. I went to look at that ABC video from Jan 14, 2009 and at approximately -0.55 in the video it shows that an ABC Producer was in the jail with TS when she saw EJ.

And reports are that this was NOT RECORDED? Has anyone heard a peep out of this Producer to see what her recollection of what was said was?

Heres the link. Again... -0.55 in the video " WATCH: Mom Says Baby Gabriel Still Alive" down toward the bottom of the story.

Here ----> http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/baby-gabriel-johnsons-babysitter-speaks-photos-released/story?id=9587297

or Here ----> http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/elizabeth-johnson-tells-abc-news-baby-gabriel-alive/story?id=9554084
 
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