AZ - Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 - #15

[cluciano63]

I may be mistaken, but it was my impression that the theories being offered that included the gun running operation were suggesting that Sergio was a KEY WITNESS and that Isabel was taken to ensure he would not testify, not that he was "highly criminal". This would appear to be supported by the fact that two of the main defendants in the case changed their pleas from GUILTY to NOT GUILTY, and did so, if I am not mistaken, on the FIRST DAY THE COURTS WERE OPEN AFTER ISABEL WAS ABDUCTED. Coincidence? Sure, it could be. But there's a chance it isn't, and I'm not about to tell someone who has a well-supported theory to keep it to themselves and find myself eating crow-kebabs if it turns out that this CRAZY, INSANE, HOLLYWOODESQUE, OUTRAGEOUS theory turns out to be the truth. :rocker:

I should have said "involved in something" highly criminal, I guess. But if this is the case, that Sergio is a witness, as some have suggested, why does LE point out that the parents are POI's and stick so close to the looking at and around that house? Seems like LE would pretty much know who to go after, JMO.

 

[LisaB]

Becky Celis said that LE concentrated their search for evidence in Isa's AND the boy' room. No one has ever discussed why that would be so. I would think an organized group such as a cartel would not find it necessary to go into the boys' room if Isa was the target. I also don't think they would chance going through the window with two large dogs barking like crazy.

Sergio said the screen was removed and left in the yard. I would think a cartel would ambush the house (like a home invasion) with masks on, brandishing guns, and take the target.. why not take one or both boys? Are these pedophile cartel people?

If LE is truly exploring all options, they'd need to consider the possibility that Isa (if by some chance Nancy Grace had her facts straight on this) had slept in the boys room for part of the night. If they took a bloodhound and it showed she had recently spent time in each of those two rooms, they'd likely do all their forensic testing in both rooms, just to be sure thy had covered their bases.

I can't answer the second part of your post, since all I know is that Isa was taken and the boys were not (which is the only reason I have for believing that they "would" take the 6 year old girl rather than the boys.

Isn't Isa's bedroom the only one of the kids' rooms with the large low window? Perhaps they would have abducted one of the boys if he had been the room that was most accessible, but that's not what happened.

 

[abstr]

Identical? I'm not sure any two cases could be identical. They could be similar. Bessie (one of the mods) above asked the same question of Pax I did about cartels taking children (specifically and only children) out of their homes, abducting them. Small children.

That would be similar to Isa's case. We know she was at home. We know she was taken out of her home sometime between 11pm and 7am the next morning. We know that no one else in her immediate family was abducted, and we know there were 2 other children in that family.

We know that according to the parents. It is not fact.
I have no reason to believe she was not at home that night but it is not FACT.

 

[Anita Richman]

Wrapping a 6 y/o in a beach towel in an attempt to conceal a body seems very far-fetched. The average height for a 6 y/o girl is 41 inches. You'd need something larger than a beach towel to conceal a body that size.

Not if she were curled up in the fetal position. P.s. Are we sure it was a beach blanket? I'd heard it described as a mexican style blanket. That would DEFINITELY conceal a body her size.

 

[dog.gone.cute]

Becky Celis said that LE concentrated their search for evidence in Isa's AND the boy' room. No one has ever discussed why that would be so. I would think an organized group such as a cartel would not find it necessary to go into the boys' room if Isa was the target. I also don't think they would chance going through the window with two large dogs barking like crazy.

Sergio said the screen was removed and left in the yard. I would think a cartel would ambush the house (like a home invasion) with masks on, brandishing guns, and take the target.. why not take one or both boys? Are these pedophile cartel people?

:seeya: :goodpost:

BBM: Good point ...

- The boys canNOT have contact with their father per LE / CPS involvement ...
- Isabel is MISSING ...

JMO, but "something" happened in Isabel's room AND/OR the boys' room ...

JMO and MOO ...

:moo:

 

[Patty G]

The JM on her fb, in a photo with RC's kids, he says he's uncle. He's the one who has all the photos with boats and Florida?

JM may say he is Isa's uncle because he is so much older than Isa, and it could be a respect thing to say Uncle JM, rather then calling JM by his first name.

JM is Isa's cousin. I cleared this up at least two weeks ago.

 

[Curious Me]

Okay, I am waaaay behind and have a couple more pages to catch up, but.....

I will preface this by saying I am not married to this theory, but I find it has merit and I am currently doing some digging to verify family relationships.

The Fast and Furious theory is not related to drug cartels. It was a botched US sting and it is believed that several gun runners who were caught became informants.

There is a possible familial connection between SC and a few of the higher profile people currently awaiting trial.

The Monday after Isa went missing, two of the defendants changed their pleas from "guilty" to "not guilty".

I think it is plausible that if Sergio was indeed part of this gun cartel and turned informant on his own family (possibly), then Isa may be being held pending Sergio's 'revised' testimony. I found it awfully strange the timing of the plea change and adding that with possible family ties, odd (IMO) behavior and the NCO, make me think LE also knows of Sergio's involvement and that was the catalyst for contacting CPS.

In summary, I do not think this is drug, or drug cartel related, nor do I think Isa was taken as payment for a debt.

I sort of feel like the people who are pooh pooing the cartel thing are stuck on one scenario of SC getting in debt to some drug kingpin. Yet many of us who are looking into a 'cartel' scenario for merit are looking at a completely different set of possibilities.

Again, it's all MOO, and only one theory I am entertaining but I wanted to make sure everyone understood what exactly the Fast and Furious scenario entailed.

thanks


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

:tyou: FrayedKnot. Your post made me go on an information search, as well. My computer - a window to the world.

 

[Patty G]

Says he's uncle when he was visiting in Arizona, going to Mexico to hit the beaches. Must make some money with the boats, yachting and traveling, just sayin'.

I am Aunt Patty to my second cousin's daughter, even though the child is my third cousin. It is a respect thing for young children to call the older relative Aunt or Uncle.

 

[spoiledmom]

Has anyone seen this development? Looks like Phoenix may not be the "kidnapping capital of the US" after all:
http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/local_news/investigations/feds-to-release-phx-kidnapping-findings

Good post, although the statistics are from four years ago. Things have changed drastically since.

 

[Anita Richman]

Lol. I haven't been there yet so I might just get a burger for myself too. Yum. But seriously, I will try and video the area, especially the back alley/gate/wall tomorrow. If I get stopped and asked what I'm doing there, I'm gonna say it's for WS!

Cool! We'll be listening for you on the scanner thread!

 

[spoiledmom]

IIRC, we do not know if the cousin JM lived with the Celis'. There was lots and lots of speculation that he did, but as far as I recall, we don't know if JM was living with the Celis'.

JM is the cousin to Isa on the mother's side before JM's mother married into the M family. There was a name change for JM after his mother married into the M family.

I know this for fact as my son is dating a woman, whose father is a first cousin in the M family, and she as well as her father knows JM's mother and father.

I modified that original post once the link was found. Someone related to the mother. I WAS WRONG.

 

[Anita Richman]

BBM

Could someone weigh in on this? Yesterday I posted a screen shot of a google map overhead, showing the Celis house and the neighbor's house. I circled in red what I thought might be the guest house. It has a door that opens on the alley, and a window adjacent to the Celis' back yard.

Someone else kindly told me that the young woman who heard the male voices at 6:30 AM was staying on the side of the neighboring house near Isa's window. So I assumed that the poster meant that what I circled couldn't be the guest house where this woman was living, because it isn't alongside Isa's window, it's alongside the Celis' back yard.

I hope you don't mind me asking once again--is the part of the neighbor's house that I've circled the guest house where the woman lives?

Good question!!!

 

[abstr]

My whole point about barking dogs, things parents have said, neighbors had said, rumors....is that there is a ton of speculation and somehow someone says....could it possibly be and then a page later it is stated as fact. Seems someone comes in later in the thread and then run with them.

 

[bwilson]

Good post, although the statistics are from four years ago. Things have changed drastically since.

Yes but the investigation has been ongoing and the article is dated 3/2012. The only other high-profile child kidnapping case I have heard of late in Phoenix is Jhessey Shockley...and police don't seem to think she was kidnapped at all anymore. I am just saying that Phoenix has received the rep of "Kidnapping Capital" based on some manipulated statistics, it seems.

 

[spoiledmom]

Yes but the investigation has been ongoing and the article is dated 3/2012. The only other high-profile child kidnapping case I have heard of late in Phoenix is Jhessey Shockley...and police don't seem to think she was kidnapped at all anymore. I am just saying that Phoenix has received the rep of "Kidnapping Capital" based on some manipulated statistics, it seems.

The police have been all over the mother in that case. Her kids told them information to make them think she was murdered. They never thought she was kidnapped by a Mexican cartel. They never extended the search to Mexico either. The statistics they are talking about in the article is for 2008.

 

[Madame_X]

Has anyone seen this development? Looks like Phoenix may not be the "kidnapping capital of the US" after all:
http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/local_news/investigations/feds-to-release-phx-kidnapping-findings

Actually, those findings were released and they confirmed that the stats were not inflated.

http://www.azcentral.com/community/...police-kidnapping-reports-federal-review.html

 

[jennapuppy]

Im so confused. Maybe because im new. But does there have to be an identical exact to the T situation in order for a theory to be used or something brought up?

I thought this case had been mentioned, but here is a link for a 6-year old child who was abducted by a Mexican drug cartel:

http://www.examiner.com/crime-in-las-vegas/two-charged-for-cole-puffinburger-s-kidnapping

 

[johnQpublic]

Red is mine

:waitasec: You're starting to sound more suspicious than I was, lurking around the first few days!

I have not been in AZ since November... I'm in the Mid-West and I have not done that Job for the cable company since 2008.. but when you work for public utility companies it's not too uncommon to need in someones yard without thier knowledge when they don't pay thier bills. LOL Would you be willing to just let the cable guy in the yard when you missed your payments...

 

[marazul]

There's no way I can say this without sounding racist, so go ahead and throw what you will...

When my daughter was in kindergarten she was invited to "Lizzie"s birthday. Lizzie looked to me like an african american/white mix so I was surprised to learn she was hispanic (at the time I did not know there were so many skin tones associated with Hispanic). At the party, all of the little Hispanic relatives (girls) had fancy dresses (like $100+) with crinolines, ruffled socks and patent leather shoes. They all had tasteful makeup and pierced ears, and their hairstyles were extravagent. The other kids all looked like normal american slobs, in jeans and t-shirts. To be fair, the party was at an indoor playground, so the casual attire really seemed more practical. But this particular Hispanic family definitely dressed their little girls up and spared no expense in doing so.

I don't find it racist that you notice we doll up our young ladies, cause we do. Not in a sexualized or skimpy way, but dresses and lots of work on their hair and all...yuuup I did it too til my tomboy outgrew it at about age 11.

 

[TheTruthWillOut]

The neighbour said she woke to sounds of male voices and the Celis dogs barking like crazy. I'm guessing this was unusual. Loud enough to have awaken her and check the time. 6:30 am Saturday morning.

This is where I get confused. If we believe what the neighbour says then it means the dogs barking and the male voices surely means they must have heard something!

RC was in the home and awake if we believe she left the house at 7am.
SC was I assume still asleep at 6:30am or was awake to see RC off to work?

Either the neighbour is wrong or the people she heard were family members. I can't think how the dog couldn't be heard by someone in the Celis household.

I'd like to know if anyone other than the guest house neighbour also heard the dogs and/or the male voices.