AZ - Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 - #15

[jennapuppy]

I think every case ends up with its own unusual theories. On the Lisa Irwin case, it was about the Insane Clown Posse, and whether or not Juggalos would kidnap a baby.:what:

 

[pieper4]

They haven't been warning us about Mexican drug cartel members seeking revenge on families by sneaking into their windows and taking their small children, either.

No. Those kinds of warnings come from inside the cartels. No reason to alert the whole world when only those who know they are involved have to worry with rare exceptions.

 

[SpongeBathHotPants]

This thread is a mess! I've removed umpteen extraneous posts. If you guys want the thread to stay open, then get back on track now.

I don't want to shoot down any theory. The facts are scarce in this case, and I realize that leaves a lot of room for speculation. On the other hand, your theories should at least be plausible, which means you can provide links to back them up. The cartel theory, for example. Can anyone provide a link to show it is a legitimate possibility in this case? Any links to another case where a Mexican cartel abducted a young chid as a retaliatory measure against a parent? Links to show the family is actually involved in illegal activity? The same goes for any theory. If you want to move forward with a line of thinking, you must support it with factual information.

AMEN! I couldn't agree more. Thank you!

 

[Anita Richman]

I think every case ends up with its own unusual theories. On the Lisa Irwin case, it was about the Insane Clown Posse, and whether or not Juggalos would kidnap a baby.:what:

I just got lost in a strange place, on a search for "what is a juggalo?"

Someone hold me!

 

[mamamia54]

AMEN! I couldn't agree more. Thank you!

Someone uptread DID post an example and linked it.

I thought this case had been mentioned, but here is a link for a 6-year old child who was abducted by a Mexican drug cartel:

http://www.examiner.com/article/two-charged-for-cole-puffinburger-s-kidnapping

On Oct. 15 2008, Tinnemeyer’s daughter and grandson were dragged into the drug dealers’ falling-out when a Hispanic man burst into Puffington’s home (disguising himself as a police officer), held the family at gunpoint and took the child.

Lopez-Buelna told authorities the boy was taken in an attempt to lure Tinnemeyer back to Vegas

 

[PAXIMUS]

You're right, Paxi. And for that I'll let YOU sit in the STAR chair. :couch:

Now that is a deal!

Love your new sig, PAX. :floorlaugh:

You're about as subtle as a Mexican drug cartel member

I was worried I wasnt clear enough.

 

[TGIRecovered]

Lol. I haven't been there yet so I might just get a burger for myself too. Yum. But seriously, I will try and video the area, especially the back alley/gate/wall tomorrow. If I get stopped and asked what I'm doing there, I'm gonna say it's for WS!

:what:
Just a friendly reminder-

Maybe you were just being funny when you wrote the part that I bolded, but in case you actually did consider telling someone that you were there for WebSleuths, you should take a second look at TOS. That would be a huge no-no!

I am not a mod, just a friend!:truce:

 

[taagean]

I did not come up with the cartel possibilities through Paximus. I don't think he is playing a game.

No, I know you didn't. I think this is a valid theory and very interesting. The "game" I'm referring to is Paximus trying to get us to figure it all out when a link to the LA Times would have sufficed. Today when I read his post stating he had no clue or theory of what could have happened to Isabel, I wondered if all this searching for information on gun smuggling actually had any relation to Isabel missing.

I just don't think a lot of the posters actually saw the link to the LAT since it was quite late at night but saw all of our posts the next morning trying to figure this out - that's where the cartel 'problem' started.

 

[PAXIMUS]

I knew you hadn't pulled it out of thin air. It just took me awhile to find the video where AS stated the rumor to a reporter. Is this still a plausible theory to work with, or......

Thank you.

 

[txanmom]

This thread is so off topic I won't be surprised if it gets pulled for review. Just saying because it's a mess in here. (ETA: sorry Salem I didn't see your warning.)

As for the way in and way out of the yard of the Celis'. In the 911 call where Isabel's Mom talks she says that the "door" is locked but in the next breath she says something to the effect that they must have climbed over the fence.

I took her reference to the door not to be the door to the house but the gate to the yard. (in a picture located on the internet and also posted to one of Isabel's threads, there is a reporter standing in front of a large wooden gate that is inset within a wall. It looks to be a possible gate to a courtyard). If the gate(s) were secured then how would someone get into the yard and then leave that yard with an awake 6 yr old? Pack her over the fence? It's a question I haven't puzzled out in my mind yet. Any ideas?

(I am still contemplating how she was removed from the house and yard, I haven't gotten anywhere near to developing a theory yet )

Thank you!! I have been working on this all day. I removed my daughter's screen in 2 seconds today. Her window wasn't open, but I went in the house and asked her if she heard me, she did not. We have a wooden gate (not as big though) it locks from outside, but I was able to walk through it from the inside (coming out of her window). **I need to fix this!!**

taking the screen off from outside I just set it to the side of the window instinctively without thinking.

just a few experiments I have been running around here, lol if it helps at all!!

(trying to get through posts I missed while cooking dinner sorry if this lands in a weird place)

 

[PlainJaneDoe]

Where did you hear that, dude?

Dude! "Scuttlebutt"?! I love that word! :lol:

 

[PAXIMUS]

Well, it was stated as a rumor, by a local, talking to other locals who may or may not know the Celis family. I'm not a mod, but it's been clearly stated by someone who was there, and heard people talking outside Isa's bedroom window. Like I said before, it's not out of the realm of possibilities, there are first times for everything.

Excellent point.

 

[Dr. Know?]

Warrant is being served (have been trying since 7 am this morning) for a home on the SE side. Stolen motorcycles also found. ATF is involved. I'll let you know if it is anything connected to Isa.

Local news KOLD 13. They said 4 people did come out but there's more inside.

eta, It has been served but they are still there. Here's an article

http://www.kvoa.com/news/3-stolen-motorbikes-recovered-after-atf-search-of-southeast-side-home/

 

[liz b.]

It sounds to me like the neighbor heard male voices, no Isa voice. They (Sergio with help) may have been removing a deceased Isa from the home (out of the window) so the boys wouldn't see anything.

Whisperer,
I remember that the neighbor said : that she could hear male voices outside.They were speaking in low tones.She could not tell if they were speaking Spanish or English.... she also said that her dogs and the Celis' dogs were making a racket,barking ...MOO

 

[gitana1]

Yeah, it was a joke. Because that's how I feel now. Not even a mod's post can get this thread back online. Back up two pages ago and read mod's post.

Thanks for clearing that up!! I thought I lost my mind for a moment.

I wish this is just a big hoax and Isabel is fine. That would be the best outcome for Isabel.

Me too. But, there would be serious charges against anyone perpetrating such a hoax.

Identical? I'm not sure any two cases could be identical. They could be similar. Bessie (one of the mods) above asked the same question of Pax I did about cartels taking children (specifically and only children) out of their homes, abducting them. Small children.

That would be similar to Isa's case. We know she was at home. We know she was taken out of her home sometime between 11pm and 7am the next morning. We know that no one else in her immediate family was abducted, and we know there were 2 other children in that family.

I thought this case had been mentioned, but here is a link for a 6-year old child who was abducted by a Mexican drug cartel:

http://www.examiner.com/crime-in-las-vegas/two-charged-for-cole-puffinburger-s-kidnapping

Yes, Cole Puffinberger. But he was taken at gun point in front of the family who were involved in drugs - both use and at least with grandpa, trafficking. That family has NOTHING in common with the Celis family.

Further, this article indicates that the kidnapping charges were dropped mid-trial after the defense presented evidence that the kidnapping was staged by Cole's mom and grandmother as a way of flushing out his grandfather. Neither mom or grandma have been charged.

Cole was gone for 4 days. He was released unharmed and knew at least one of the people who took him.

http://www.lvrj.com/news/all-kidnapping-charges-dropped-in-cole-puffinburger-case-116344829.html

http://www.lvrj.com/news/defense-accuses-family-of-staging-boy-s-kidnapping-114669284.html

That is the only case in the United States of an alleged cartel kidnapping of an American child.

They are actually still looking in the landfill, have been for weeks.

Wow! They must really think they have something. I hope they do. I don't want that mother getting her kids back!

They do. They apparently got a tip from someone who, it seems, believes the mother placed Jhessye's body in a specific trash receptacle, on a specific day.

Jhessye's sister told CPS workers that her sister had been severely beaten by their mother and then confined to a closet with no food or water, for days. The sister would try to sneak water to her. The last day she saw her there, she said the closet looked like a coffin and Jhessye looked dead. The next day, Jhessye was not there and the mother was cleaning the closet with bleach. I think they could actually find her. But. It's going to be hard. lease:

 

[PAXIMUS]

I posted the following video in thread #13, page 3, post #59 but didn't think too much about the comment made by AS (neighbor that heard the dogs and talking men at 6:30 am) at 2:30 in the video. After all the theorizing going on about possible cartel involvement, I thought I remembered her saying something about it but didn't want to post without being able to link to the video. I finally figured out which video it was, so here it is:

http://www.tucsonnewsnow.com/story/18306084/finding-isabel-the-untold-investigation

AS "I have heard speculations on that the family is involved with drugs, the cartel." Again, this starts at 2:30 in the above linked video.

Just putting this out there, fwiw, as it is a linkable MSN video about the local rumors wrt a possible cartel connection.

Thank you for this!

 

[Shelby2]

The thank you button was not enough! Thank you so much for this find. Ok, will keep working on my theory, seems dad was first, mom second, 14 yo last. The beach towel was a cover for something from the trunk of the detectives car.

Anybody, theories on what was in detectives trunk that was concealed with the beach towel?

And if they brought it into the house with all three family members?

 

[Theforeigner]

Good catch, Eileen!

Anita you posted this:

Originally Posted by Anita Richman
Not if she were curled up in the fetal position. P.s. Are we sure it was a beach blanket? I'd heard it described as a mexican style blanket. That would DEFINITELY conceal a body her size.

Could you please provide a link to where it has been stated that it
was a " a mexican style blanket "

 

[Anita Richman]

Snipped


They do. They apparently got a tip from someone who, it seems, believes the mother placed Jhessye's body in a specific trash receptacle, on a specific day.

Jhessye's sister told CPS workers that her sister had been severely beaten by their mother and then confined to a closet with no food or water, for days. The sister would try to sneak water to her. The last day she saw her there, she said the closet looked like a coffin and Jhessye looked dead. The next day, Jhessye was not there and the mother was cleaning the closet with bleach. I think they could actually find her. But. It's going to be hard. lease:

Reminds me of Tyler and Ariana Payne, here in Tucson. (One of the reasons that Tucson CPS doesn't have "such a good name for itself", as noted by Celis friend, Joe Vega.) http://tucsoncitizen.com/morgue/author/a-j-flick/page/2/

 

[Whisperer]

No. Those kinds of warnings come from inside the cartels. No reason to alert the whole world when only those who know they are involved have to worry with rare exceptions.

If that were the case, then why would Sergio allow his children to sleep in rooms on the opposite side of the house with windows that were not secured? In fact, why wasn't his security system working?

Sergio and Becky didn't take any secure measures as far as I can tell. Sergio, if involved with the bad guys, sure did nothing to protect his family.