AZ - Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 - #22

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There are many reports in the doc dumps that list clothing and other articles found.
We do not have any results of any of the reports.
We do not know if anything belonged to Isabel.
We do not know if anything was ruled out as belonging to the Celis home.
We have only reports, no evidence, no results.
 
spoiledmom said:
Well they did let the Sierra LaMar suspect run free for almost two months knowing that he was Guilty. They had their reasons. I'm not saying that SC is guilty (although IMO he is guilty of something), there may be other arrests pending and SC may lead LE to those arrests. My guess is as good as yours.
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It has been my (very little) experience that sometimes LE allows a suspect to remain free to give them "enough rope to hang themselves"!! jmo:seeya:
 
GutFeeling! said:
The separation is legal and that is from personal experience. In my case it was a parent that was on drugs (think street heavy type) - they had to attend rehab and then it would be reviewed. There was no contact allowed, this was broken so CPS went to court and got an emergency order (once again it was only temporary) - Parent screwed up again ..... this started 5 months ago in my case. (I am the Nan)

I actually spoke to the CPS case worker today about Isabel's case and there are numerous reasons for doing it this way. SC is still a custodial parent.

If it were criminal police would make an arrest. Drugs are often not criminal because the person doesn't have them on them at the time but it some how comes out (I had no idea this parent was on drugs and I am no idiot). So it is clean up time for the person and also gives CPS time to build a case against said parent if they feel the child would be in danger if returned.

The parent not in trouble was also given that time to get an attorney and fight for custody. They do mediation meetings etc all through the process
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If I understand you correctly, CPS CAN do whatever they want without a legal document from the court or without providing an attorney for the parent as long as the parent agrees. If that agreement is broken, then they get a court order?
That is like saying you are under arrest but we won't cuff you unless you move too far to the right, or we won't book you into jail as long as you cooperate. There is something very wrong with any entity, particularly a non-law enforcement group whose workers are often under qualified to assess a persons behavior to have that kind of power and not answer to anyone. I totally agree CPS should be involved in this case but if it is needed then get LE and the court involved. Going to do more checking on CPS management.
 
tiredblondy said:
Maybe there was evidence of drug usage in the blood results, not sure whose but would that be a reason?
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I considered that, but would CPS just move the offending parent out of the house, or would they want them to enter a rehab facility? Neither parent, to my knowledge, has done such a thing. I don't think it is impossible.

I'd think it more likely they would want that parent to attend some group sessions and retest after a few weeks before deciding "use" = "abuse"
 
Prof said:
There are many reports in the doc dumps that list clothing and other articles found.
We do not have any results of any of the reports.
We do not know if anything belonged to Isabel.
We do not know if anything was ruled out as belonging to the Celis home.
We have only reports, no evidence, no results.
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Just off hand, do you know if any of the items were found in the area where they dug that big hole north of the airforce base?
 
Knox said:
IIRC, LE took cheek swabs from the entire family and blood, only from the parents?

Would you need both blood and a cheek swab for a DNA profile (parents)? Has it been stated that LE took blood from the parents for a drug test? I assumed it was for DNA purposes only.
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Although I do not know what two purposes they were for, the samples collected from the parents, IMO, WERE for two different types of testing. From each parent, they drew 2 grey-capped vials and 1 yellow-capped vial.
 
GutFeeling! said:
Just off hand, do you know if any of the items were found in the area where they dug that big hole north of the airforce base?
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I don't think, so..but this is the first I have heard of a big hole.
In what material did you see the big hole north of the base? Was it in the reports? Was it in a news story? I had not heard of the big hole, but I would like to hear about it.
The items like sandals, and socks, and tee shrts, and blankets, and bedding, and fabric, were all fairly close to the Celis neighborhood as far as I noticed. I will be more than willing to look if you can give me more details.
 
BaxterDE42 said:
spoiledmom,

I would be very troubled if we did have all the information. No case should be tried in the public arena. CPS is not the supreme end all to these situations. IF someone is a threat enough to their children that they entered into an agreement with CPS to stay away from their children then there must be some legal step that makes this binding. I have found nothing to suggest there is anything "legal" about this move. If SC is such a threat then why isn't the police envolved? From everything I am reading and hearing from police in their pressers, CPS has more jurisdiction than them.
*I cannot find the press conference but I know the police said this issue is with SC family and CPS. I am just trying to understand how is this so in this missing person case and WHY Cps trumps the LE.
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Well I believe that LE contacted CPS with information that they received during this investigation. I believe LE is somewhat involved even though CPS made the decision with SC. I remember reading that LE had concern for the boys welfare and then contacted CPS. It would be nice if they let us know why but it may be something important to the investigation that they do not want to release to the public. Or maybe they simply think its no one else's business?? Just guessing..
 
I know they searched houses, washes, tunnels, lakes, parks around Tucson, for sure. They also searched in Douglas and Mexico as far as I remember. They said they are still doing searches in the last presser on 5/21/12. I don't think I would assume that LE has stopped searching just becuase they stopped pressers, or because it has not made the news.
 
Chief V. stated in the presser, the Monday after the news of CPS asking for the separation, that CPS was involved from day one of this case as they always are when a child goes missing.
 
BaxterDE42 said:
spoiledmom,

I would be very troubled if we did have all the information. No case should be tried in the public arena. CPS is not the supreme end all to these situations. IF someone is a threat enough to their children that they entered into an agreement with CPS to stay away from their children then there must be some legal step that makes this binding. I have found nothing to suggest there is anything "legal" about this move. If SC is such a threat then why isn't the police envolved? From everything I am reading and hearing from police in their pressers, CPS has more jurisdiction than them.
*I cannot find the press conference but I know the police said this issue is with SC family and CPS. I am just trying to understand how is this so in this missing person case and WHY Cps trumps the LE.
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CPS does not trump LE. LE has to have evidence (proof of allegations) to make an arrest. CPS only needs a 'risk' to be there.

As an example - My grandsons father picked him up by the throat to hold him face to face in Walmart one day. He is 5'9" tall so my grandson was raised off the floor 2 feet by his neck. I called Walmart, they found and held the video. I filed a police report and the police went to Walmart to get the video. The officer approached the Prosecuting Attorney with the video but the Attorney said the father could say he was just turning my grandsons face to his to confront him (like 'you listen to me') and refused to prosecute. I then called CPS. It was investigated and nothing was really done about it because there was a previous case for this child before but since this occurrence happened in a different county it was viewed as the first and nothing was done. CPS could have but refused to.

Anyway, CPS does not need evidence to request a no contact order.
 
LisaB said:
I asked the same thing. It seemed to me like a bath would be more fun, and less water everywhere, but my sister and I were close in age so we bathed together at that age. In a shower we'd have been fighting over the water
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We really do not have time for baths most nights. During the school yr she has about 4 hrs from the time she gets home till the time she needs to go to bed so she will be up for 6am for school. So we have to fit in snacks, homework,fun time, showers, cooking and eating, getting ready for bed and bedtime story.

Summers we spend most days in the pool. So really no need for play time in the tub. And at some point during last summer she was watching i carly and a girl off the show made a comment about how you sit in your own dirt in a bath. She turned to me and said Thank God I shower I don't want to sit in my dirt.

If she takes a bath I have water on every wall of the bathroom even in the closed closet and all over the floor ( we have yet to redo the bathroom the previous owners put carpet in the bathroom so drying carpet nightly is not to fun) b/c she pretends she is in the pool and splashes all over.
 
BaxterDE42 said:
If I understand you correctly, CPS CAN do whatever they want without a legal document from the court or without providing an attorney for the parent as long as the parent agrees. If that agreement is broken, then they get a court order?
That is like saying you are under arrest but we won't cuff you unless you move too far to the right, or we won't book you into jail as long as you cooperate. There is something very wrong with any entity, particularly a non-law enforcement group whose workers are often under qualified to assess a persons behavior to have that kind of power and not answer to anyone. I totally agree CPS should be involved in this case but if it is needed then get LE and the court involved. Going to do more checking on CPS management.
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Ok .. here is what happened to initiate all this. Said parent smashed into the other parents car, with the the child in the back of the car with naughty parent. Police were called by neighbours (who lost their gardens) and parent then went a little crazy and was committed for 72 hours.

This left the child in a situation that could be dangerous within days. Naughty parent admitted that their behaviour was drug induced , and that they had been doing drugs for years.

Because there was a child involved CPS were called (apparently this was not under child endangerment charges - but don't get me started on that) and believed it was in the best interest of the child AT THIS STAGE to stay away from naughty parent until they could seek help. Naughty parent was told to sign or the child would be put in state care. Good parent stepped up (and best they did because I own that one and would have kicked an arse to the curb if they didn't). To make life easier for good parent and to ensure naughty parent would get the treatment they promised they would, they signed the temporary (key word, this is all temporary at this stage) paperwork.
In my case things went down hill for naughty parent BUT that thirty days gave a decent amount of time for good parent to get an attorney and start proceedings against naughty parent for custody.

Now IF this is because SC was showing signs of anger issues or breakdown he may have signed for that reason and been told to see a doctor (they can be up to 90 days) and the reports come back that way. He has not broken any of the rules required by him so CPS don' have to worry about organising court cases.

It is very hard for me to explain because I don't want to cause more drama around here lol Hope that makes it clearer for you. Cps do have power but it is limited. Ohhhh and if during that time in this case they tested positive to drugs while rehabilitating they would have been able to get the police to make an arrest (that is from my understanding)
 
LisaB said:
I missed that it was a daybed. They referred to a headboard and somehow I assumed it was a regular twin bed.
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I didn't say that it was a "daybed". I simply responded that not all dust ruffles or bedskirts are necessarily only three-sided: Daybed dust ruffles are pleated/ruffled on all four sides because the head and foot ends of a daybed are visible, and the "headboard" is actually on one side of the bed and usually placed against a wall. Sorry; I didn't mean to confuse you.
 
Prof said:
I don't think, so..but this is the first I have heard of a big hole.
In what material did you see the big hole north of the base? Was it in the reports? Was it in a news story? I had not heard of the big hole, but I would like to hear about it.
The items like sandals, and socks, and tee shrts, and blankets, and bedding, and fabric, were all fairly close to the Celis neighborhood as far as I noticed. I will be more than willing to look if you can give me more details.
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Here is the link to where they searched I am trying to find a photo of the hole dug.
http://azstarnet.com/news/local/pol...cle_2862dfba-f90b-560a-bc5b-28688eda8e04.html

You're a gem prof :)
 
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