AZ - Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 - #23

[abstr]

Is there something that can indicate which definition of "apparent" is in use? Eg., 1 more likelY than another to be used in a technical report of this nature?

In my opinion and only my opinion...until there is definitive forensic testing it is speculation. Luminol can test false positive. I will give you that detectives and forensics teams probably have a good sense of "real" blood....apparent is not a fact. AGAIN IMO MOO only!

 

[Prof]

Still curious about blood in Isa's bedroom? I thought the document dump showed apparent blood. Have I missed the results of forensics that showed it was in fact blood?

No, there were no missed results of any forensics. We have only reports from TPD on the scene. We have no results from any tests.

 

[Prof]

six pieces of evidence, labeled, were taken from her bedroom. two of them tested positive for blood. DJN3 and DJN4.

DJN 1/2 and 5/6 were scent and fingerprint samples.

Luminol reaction on the driver's seat (please don't tell me he assisted with oral surgery and got blood on his arse) of the toyota. Positive for blood.

i can't do the fancy screen shots that others have, but it's all here:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=173546&page=4

Well, if this is a reponse to my suggestion, my post was simply in reference to this family of medical professionals in response to all the posts about the reports of possible blood in CARS, as a possible explanation for possible blood in cars. My post did not address the report of apparent blood in Isa's room.

Again we have ZERO results from any reports.

and how do we know that the car belonged to SC. IMO it could have been the same RC's car that shows in her 10 year old DUI.

 

[abstr]

Well, if this is a reponse to my suggestion, my post was simply in reference to this family of medical professionals in response to all the posts about the reports of possible blood in CARS, as a possible explanation for possible blood in cars. My post did not address the report of apparent blood in Isa's room.

Again we have ZERO results from any reports.

and how do we know that the car belonged to SC. IMO it could have been the same RC's car that shows in her 10 year old DUI.

The quotes are a mess...but no White Rabbit. I was saying I saw nothing from LE the what was found in Isa's room was in fact blood through forensic testing.
I can't say we can't speculate it because it said apparent blood....so if said as speculation I can understand but I just don't like seeing speculation turned to fact and then by a few pages later it is seen as total fact.....

 

[abstr]

sorry Prof and White Rabbit...quotes really are messed up!

 

[Prof]

So the 14yo white boy who talked to the man in the truck may have been the boy who was looking for his dog and the man could have been his dad who was also out looking for the dog. The man agreed to call the police though and we know some man did in fact call 911 for Jr. Not for the younger brother. Weird.


And this woman encountered the youngest son between 8:10 and 8:30 am when SC told 911 he was waiting in the garage. Another inconsistency?
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In a witness statement? In a police report providing a 'synopsis"? In reading? In a telephone game?

My impression is that this still could have been the older brother. That the man who was reported as calling 911 with one of the Celis' boys was in fact the man we heard on the 911 audio. If not, we would have to assume that the man in the truck did not call 911? Why believe anything different?

I personally think that it is safe to assume that this was the older of the two boys, and he got a ride home with the man in the truck who did in fact call 911 as he said he was going to do in this report.
IMO this is not an inconsistency.

 

[winterrose]

If that's the older brother LH is describing she's way off on the 12 yo size being 4'3 and slight, because the older brother looks to be about 5' and he's almost 15. He's also got a deeper voice in the 911, sounds older than his age. I'm not saying it's not him, just that she's off on the size and age. He's at the :49 mark on the video Isabel Celis' parents questioned - YouTube

 

[Lark2]

I think it's extremely unlikely that Sergio and/or Rebecca could have walked out of their jobs with wet blood on their clothes and transferred those blood stains to their cars.

 

[Jules71]

In a witness statement? In a police report providing a 'synopsis"? In reading? In a telephone game?

My impression is that this still could have been the older brother. That the man who was reported as calling 911 with one of the Celis' boys was in fact the man we heard on the 911 audio. If not, we would have to assume that the man in the truck did not call 911? Why believe anything different?

I personally think that it is safe to assume that this was the older of the two boys, and he got a ride home with the man in the truck who did in fact call 911 as he said he was going to do in this report.
IMO this is not an inconsistency.

That is exactly what I was thinking - that it was the older boy and the man who we hear on the 911 call. But when it was pointed out that the woman's description of the kid was 403/slight and approx 12 yo, I don't believe it can be the oldest boy. And the inconsistency would be in SC's 911 call when he says youngest son was in garage waiting for mom. It could just be that he went to the garage and then decided to go looking and SC didn't know he left.

Also if this is an entirely different man than the one who called 911 for Jr, maybe they never released his 911 call or maybe he didn't call 911 at all. I just am not convinced it was the oldest boy who was seen based on description. Is this location close to the party store where the clerk wrote about the younger son coming in the store? And does anyone recall the time that happened.
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[Lark2]

Ok, time for the evening's cynical post: I think this was all one big production directed by Sergio; even the dogs running lose the week before were just part of the story, as was family running around after the fact asking if they'd seen Isabel, seen the dog(s), etc. As for the "apparent" blood: If it is blood, I think it was planted (something that wouldn't be hard for medical professionals to carry out from start to finish).

I also think there are numerous accomplices within the family.

I'm getting more cynical every day...

 

[gliving]

Ok, time for the evening's cynical post: I think this was all one big production directed by Sergio; even the dogs running lose the week before were just part of the story, as was family running around after the fact asking if they'd seen Isabel, seen the dog(s), etc. As for the "apparent" blood: If it is blood, I think it was planted (something that wouldn't be hard for medical professionals to carry out from start to finish).

I also think there are numerous accomplices within the family.

I'm getting more cynical every day...

Yep, that's pretty cynical. LOL I'll pitch in and say the blood could have been from her little white dog's heat cycle and that's why every dog in the neighborhood seemed to be barking and getting out of their fences.

:twocents:

 

[joedotnet]

Well, if this is a reponse to my suggestion, my post was simply in reference to this family of medical professionals in response to all the posts about the reports of possible blood in CARS, as a possible explanation for possible blood in cars. My post did not address the report of apparent blood in Isa's room.

Again we have ZERO results from any reports.

and how do we know that the car belonged to SC. IMO it could have been the same RC's car that shows in her 10 year old DUI.

no way blood is transferred from their job to car.

 

[winterrose]

If it wasn't human blood whoever staged it sure didn't think about LE forensics and not very smart. There are enough people in the medical field in this case to have access to human blood, though. In my mind, LE saying whoever did this did an adequate job of covering it up, doesn't sound like a stranger abduction. Wouldn't they say the person who abducted her didn't leave any evidence, but cover up just seems different. Maybe I'm looking too deeply into his statement.

 

[winterrose]

I'm looking up "cover up a crime", wikipedia had some things pertaining to cover up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cover-up

A cover-up is an attempt, whether successful or not, to conceal evidence of wrong-doing, error, incompetence or other embarrassing information.

There are a number of things interesting in the article, but too much to put here. This is interesting and I hope if it is a cover up this will hold true about many fail...

It is likely that some cover-ups are successful although by definition this cannot be confirmed. Many fail, however, as more and more people are drawn in and the possibility of exposure makes potential accomplices fearful of supporting the cover-up and as loose ends that may never normally have been noticed start to stand out. As it spreads, the cover-up itself creates yet more suspicious circumstances.

 

[Starry Night]

....off-topic.........115 listening to the scanner lol-....same ole stuff I think?

And the good news is that my co-worker's nieces' murderer has been ID'd-at least one of 3-not in custody yet.....

 

[winterrose]

....off-topic.........115 listening to the scanner lol-....same ole stuff I think?

And the good news is that my co-worker's nieces' murderer has been ID'd-at least one of 3-not in custody yet.....

Oh that is so sad, but I'm glad who did it has been ID'd and maybe will give up the names of the other two when caught.

 

[Starry Night]

Oh that is so sad, but I'm glad who did it has been ID'd and maybe will give up the names of the other two when caught.

Thank you Winter-I called Houston Homicide and thanked them for their work. (anonymously of course).......Houston Tx homicides up 27 percent in this year from last year so far-

edited to say that the one ID'd is NOT in custody yet....matter of time

 

[kat77]

I have a question for everyone who thinks this is a hoax: When Isabel is found, the hoax will be revealed right away. Right? Now, do you think the parents realize that..and want to be infamous for orchestrating a missing child hoax or do they think the entire country will buy the story that Isabel was really kidnapped and held for weeks/months? And how long do they think people and LE will buy this "rescued child" story?

I'll try to answer your question. IMO the people who believe that this may be a hoax think that Sergio and Becky simply DID NOT expect something to go wrong and to end up under LE scrutiny.

I believe that some one here previously mentioned that Sergio might be delusional, egotistical, or have a disconnect with reality. I think this comment was made when we were discussing the worldwide prayer event and 9/11 comment.

A person with this type of personality could think that he would be smart enough to actually get away with something like this. I don't think anyone commits a crime assuming that they are going to be caught. They always think that they are in some way special, smart enough, lucky enough, etc...

I know it would be naive to think a hoax would work. Some have said that Sergio and Becky sometimes act like teenagers. In a way that's how they strike me. What if they thought they had come up with a great idea, didn't think it through very well, and ended up in too deep to back down? There are so many things that they have said, that just don't make much sense otherwise.

In the radio interview Sergio said "This is gonna be...It already feels like it's been a long road..." Maybe that wasn't just a slip of the tongue. It appeared that he started to say "this is gonna be a long road". But if he is not in control of when it will end, why would he assume that it will be a long road? Isa could be found at any moment. On the Today Show, Sergio talked about LE's efforts. He said "we understand that they can’t bring false hope". How did he know it would only be "false hope"? Most parents would have been praying for and expecting real answers.

Even the Bring Isa Home website and slogan seems strange to me. The emphasis is completely on getting Isa's face out there and raising "awareness" (whatever that means). They talk about bringing her home, but not about "actually finding Isa".

If this was a hoax, I'm sure they had a plan so Isa could turn up safe somewhere and everything would work out. I don't really assume that the boys knew about a plan. Maybe the parent's thought Isa was young enough that she wouldn't be able to say anything "believable" after she came home.

But they didn't expect to be under LE's scrutiny from the beginning. At first, the family pointed to the window as the entry point, but then a few days later Sergio wasn't so sure. Becky went to work at 7:30, 7:00, or 6:30. They just seem to trying to stay ahead of developments that they didn't anticipate.

I have never implied that I think that this family had particularly nefarious motives. I don't think they would consider a hoax to be a serious crime. If that's what this is, they wouldn't actually be hurting anyone (from their point of view). They would just be making a false police report. That happens frequently, even in a custody battle, a divorce proceeding, or just to get back at someone.

I know people don't want to talk about the Balloon Boy, but that father did actually attempt to get attention by planning a hoax. Looking back, we wonder why he didn't realize that his family wasn't likely to be able to keep that secret. But people do strange things. Sergio does seem naive to me, and there was a chance that Isa could eventually be "found" somewhere, without raising too much suspicion (if LE had just done a less thorough investigation and the public had continued supporting the family).

But even if someone is caught planning a hoax, the Balloon Boy's dad was only sentenced to 90 days in jail. (he was supposed to serve the first 30 days of his sentence in jail and then the last 60 days he could spend weekends and nights in jail so that he could work during the day.) The mother got 20 days in jail (which could be served over 10 weekends, after the father served his sentence).

People want publicity and attention and then they see that those sentences were a slap on the wrist (and that is assuming they actually get caught). They also watch Casey Anthony and her parents (and others) get rich.

Some have said that this family wouldn't want to be remembered as the parents "who staged a fake abduction". I just don't believe that when planning a crime most people think that far ahead, and even consider how they will be remembered.

If this was a hoax, maybe they felt that the upside was good enough and the chances of getting caught were actually small. Remember Becky's "bring it on" statement and her confidence that no one would find anything. And based on the sentencing of the Balloon Boy's parent's, maybe the risk of lying to LE, just didn't seem to be that high.

I doubt that anyone was initially thinking much about a $1,000,000 investigation and any possible restitution. The calm 911 call could make sense if Sergio was just going through the motions and reporting the "abduction" as part of a plan.

 

[gngr~snap]

no way blood is transferred from their job to car.

I was a home health nurse and drew blood at the home from newborns that were jaundiced and being treated with bili lights... I had to drive to the hospital and take the sample to the lab! So YES blood COULD end up in a vehicle due to a nurses "job" - (thank God I never spilled a sample!)
You said THEIR jobs! ~duh!
I guess due to the jobs they performed it would be next to impossible!

just my :twocents:

 

[DIRK SCHILLER]

BBM -- this was not Isa's brother. The woman did not report seeing anyone's brother. She reported two boys. She did not know either boy.

The woman clearly encountered two different boys in the PARK ---
one "husky" "brownish-blonde" haired boy from COOPER Street was looking for his dog.

Then she continued on north where she saw Isa's brother coming from his 12th street alleyway.... we can only assume this to be one of Isa's brothers as he was looking for his sister. The report does not identify the boy.
It is odd as first the boy looking for his dog is encountered, then she continues up street when the second boy is discussed looking for his sister, and the truck pulling up, and then a "14 year old white boy" enters the synopsis. Is this the first boy looking for his dog again?

Here is a copy of the report.

well, I do not get it, it is about the timeline,
he called 911, was it at around 8:48 / 8:55 a.m that morning? (thats what police report says)
if so why did he call that late? he went to Isa´s bedroom at 8:00 a.m?
when did he call Becky then ?
Linda(the neighbor) met Sergio junior at about 8:10 and said she also saw Sergio coming in the truck ,talking to her(he will immediately call police from his cell phone),and driving back home with his son.
But on this Pdf of the transcripts released by the police looks like he didn't call till almost nine am ?
If so, why did he make that phone call that late and from what phone?
when did he call his wife then?
at what time did police and becky arrive home?
Besides,he told police after they asked:
"why do you think she was abducted?"
" WE woke up this morning and went to go get her up,start her baseball game and she was gone. I woke up my, my sons, I..., WE looked everywhere in the house and my oldest son noticed that her window was wide open and the screen was laying in the backyard.WE have looked all around the house, my son..."
"Ok, hang on!"
"...are running, MY sons are running around the house looking for her"

so, he said his sons are running around the house as he was talking to police,but they did that already,before, as Sergio junior met Linda?!?

He said WE woke up and went to Isa´s bedroom, so I think Sergio and Becky have been in Isa´s room and then he said he woke up his sons,he wasn´t sure what to say: I....., WE....., I´m sure dad woke up first,while his sons were still asleeping, but then why he said: WE ????
Has anyone noticed about the time he made that phone call? because on this PDF file stays: 8:48 am
The neighbor Jorge called at 8:57 and did not know the name of the streets ????, who was that Jorge? and where does he live at????

http://bloximages.chicago2.vip.town...-11e1-8e9c-001a4bcf887a/4fb1dbce13254.pdf.pdf

please some help me understand ,and I do apologize if I´m wrong about the timeline
Heidi, mom of abducted/missing Dirk Schiller