AZ - Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 - # 6

[jstwondering]

But what about the 10 and 14 yr old? Would they go along with a horrible, corrupt cover up?

Also, the dad would have to assume that she was dead and not coming home. If they really had left her behind, wouldn't some of the other families have seen her, wandering out looking for her parents?

BBM and my own opinion, but I think that if this did indeed happen, that the brothers would have also fallen into thinking she was with the other parent that they were not with.

Also, I don't think she would have been just wandering around, I think as another poster said, she would have been playing with the other younger siblings of the baseball players, and went missing while with them. (Either was taken by a perp, or drowned in pond/ditch nearby.)
Living this lifestyle of swim meets, soccer tournaments, and baseball games, younger siblings are rarely closely watched. Everyone assumes that all the siblings are being watched by other siblings or other parents. Most of the time, this can be true, but MANY MANY MANY times, the children are unsupervised. I can't tell you how many times I have been witness to children disappearing, only to be later found after an announcement is made over the loud speakers. Confession: One time, my 8 year old niece took my 2 year old with her to play house during a swim meet, and I frantically searched for him for 5 minutes that seemed like hours. She just didn't see the problem. I was frantic.

 

[AnaTeresa]

Occum's Razor, I think. Make the fewest assumptions and and offer the most probable explanation.

Isabel was seen at the ball field. Therefore, she was probably not left at the ball field.

Isabel disappeared from her house. Therefore, someone in the house did something to her, or someone broke into the house.

Isabel's screen was tampered with. Therefore, someone either tampered with the window to attempt to gain entry to the house, or someone staged it to look that way.

There were dog hits of some sort in the house. Therefore, Isabel was either killed in the house, or the other dogs had some sort of hit in the house leading to another person, item, or clue.

If we look at what we know, these convoluted theories involving the ball park or parents leaving the child or staging some sort of kidnapping after not realizing your child was missing for a night simply do not make sense. Most of the time, these cases are fairly simple, whether the crime was committed by a family member, friend, or stranger. If you're having to build assumptions on assumptions to get to the theory of the case, it's probably not a viable theory.

 

[dimples37398]

I am a mom and I will say something that I still feel guilty about, My husband was leaving to go to the store, my 2 year old wanted to go and said he was going with daddy, I said to my husband when he walked by, why don't you take him so I can shower while y'all are gone, he didn't respond so I assumed he heard me, The door opened and closed once, I get a knock at the door 10 minutes later, it is a neighbor (Thank you god so much) that brought him back to the house, he was walking up the alley towards a main road, trying to follow daddy, his dad hadn't heard me and assumed he was going to play in the yard , but ended up getting the gate open somehow.

 

[katydid23]

I hate to say this but I am really beginning to think she never made it home from the field. I know we had it happen when I was coaching with much better results. Each parent thought they took the child home from a Saturday afternoon game. Luckily other games were being played that afternoon. One observant parent saw the kid and because we were a small league did not see Mom or Dad. Took them to the snack bar and called the home.
It does happen more often than I think we all would like to think it does.

If she was an only child then I could see that possibility. But the 14 yr old would speak up, imo, if his baby sister had never come home that night, and the parents were covering it up.

 

[IHAVENOCLUE]

But what about the 10 and 14 yr old? Would they go along with a horrible, corrupt cover up?

Also, the dad would have to assume that she was dead and not coming home. If they really had left her behind, wouldn't some of the other families have seen her, wandering out looking for her parents?

The boys may be clueless, too. They probably want to believe their parents. Or maybe they just want to help out their parents and not expose their mistake AND kthey want to find Isa.

And maybe Isa was taken at the park before she had a chance to be wandering around without a parent...... after mom left the park, but before dad left the park.

Just a thought!

 

[Pensfan]

What would the dog hit indicate if for some reason they did not get home with her from the ballpark?

Mom is an ER nurse. There is blood on the ER floor frequently and mom's nursing shoes would have blood on the soles. Mom's lab jackets and all the many items nurses must carry in their pockets (hemostats, bandage tape, scissors, and ect...) have been in contact with blood and even deceased individuals.

Madeline McCann's parents were physicians and mom stated the cadaver dog hits in the rental car were related to her occupation (but who takes a dirty lab jacket on vacation). Pfffft!

 

[dimples37398]

If she was an only child then I could see that possibility. But the 14 yr old would speak up, imo, if his baby sister had never come home that night, and the parents were covering it up.

What if the boys were in their rooms, doing their own thing, or asleep by the time dad came home, and they have no clue she didn't make it home. What if dad is telling mom and boys and everyone else, I put her in bed, I tucked her in, I brought her home.

 

[not_my_kids]

Maybe nobody put her to bed because she put herself to bed. My six year old does it, especially when he doesn't feel good or when he is just really tired. He'll use the bathroom, go to his room, change into pj's, and put himself to bed, no comment to anyone. I know a few other kids, older and younger, and that do the same. I can understand how someone, such as the police, would be skeptical if I said it right after reporting a child missing, though. If they ask who put the six year old to bed, and both adults pass responsibility by saying that she put herself to bed, that could lead to some of the seeming suspicion of the parents, even with no hard evidence that they did anything.

ETA: That might or might not explain the lack of a clothing description. If she put herself to bed, and no one knows what she had on because she dressed herself, then it would be hard to give a description, however, if there was something missing out of her pajamas, the parents should have been able to say what it was. She might get herself ready for bed, but I doubt she does her own clothes shopping.

 

[AnaTeresa]

If she was an only child then I could see that possibility. But the 14 yr old would speak up, imo, if his baby sister had never come home that night, and the parents were covering it up.

I agree. We have two other older children in the home who would out the parents on this.

 

[Salem]

WS does not sleuth minors, nor post their pictures, etc. I don't think the posting of the ball schedule - that is commonly found online - was a huge problem, but thank you dntslp for deleting your post and removing the link.

As always - a WSer's concern should be the safety of minors above all else. Our cases are heartbreaking and many involve innocent children. We do not want to contribute to that in any way - so just asking yourself, before you post, if the information could make it easier for an evil person to find a child, will help you decide if you should make the post.

Hope that helps - you guys did good!

Salem

:bump:

And, while the ball schedule may be available online, identifying the teams that her brothers play for and posting their past or future game schedules falls under "sleuthing minors" and is not allowed.

Okay Guys - sorry we did not catch this earlier. The rules about minors:

1. Don't post their names - NOT even in a direct quote from MSM. Yes, you can link the MSM and discuss it, but try not to quote parts that name the children or change the children's names to initials.

2. NO pictures or YTube of minors except for the victim.

3. NO schedules, or giving away of info. Use your sleuthing skills. MSM is discussable and sometimes it contains info about other minors. This is when you need to think about what you are posting. Other posters can go to the link and get info, our goal is not to make it easier for others with bad intentions. We can't control it, but we can refuse to help, kwim?

I know that makes it a bit difficult - but we do our best to PROTECT all minors, including family members of the victim - we don't post their names, ages, schools, ball teams, schedules, etc. etc.


Thanks!

Salem

 

[dimples37398]

How many older boys would notice or stop and think to find out if their sister came home with their dad who came home later than them. I know my kids, if they are watching cartoons, I could easily walk in the door and by them, to carry my 7 year old to bed, and the older two would never even notice.

 

[AnaTeresa]

Mom is an ER nurse. There is blood on the ER floor frequently and mom's nursing shoes would have blood on the soles. Mom's lab jackets and all the many items nurses must carry in their pockets (hemostats, bandage tape, scissors, and ect...) have been in contact with blood and even deceased individuals.

Madeline McCann's parents were physicians and mom stated the cadaver dog hits in the rental car were related to her occupation (but who takes a dirty lab jacket on vacation. Pfffft!)

I'm guessing that shoes would probably be cleaned at the ER, particularly given concerns over blood-borne pathogens. Same would go for instruments and things. I really can't see someone who worked in an ER tracking blood all over their carpets.

 

[dimples37398]

I'm guessing that shoes would probably be cleaned at the ER, particularly given concerns over blood-borne pathogens. Same would go for instruments and things. I really can't see someone who worked in an ER tracking blood all over their carpets.

No but just from walking around a hospital all day, working in the ER, at some point I can bet her shoes would have a chance to be exposed to decomposition in one stage or another. Dying flesh from a wound, as bad as it is too say or think of, a kid coming in the ER from an accident, who doesn't make it. Dogs have very sensitive noses when it comes to that.

I can't see her being able to get the smell (as sensitive as the dogs noses are) out, even if washed. They can detect amazing things.

 

[IHAVENOCLUE]

Occum's Razor, I think. Make the fewest assumptions and and offer the most probable explanation.

Isabel was seen at the ball field. Therefore, she was probably not left at the ball field.

Isabel disappeared from her house. Therefore, someone in the house did something to her, or someone broke into the house.

Isabel's screen was tampered with. Therefore, someone either tampered with the window to attempt to gain entry to the house, or someone staged it to look that way.

There were dog hits of some sort in the house. Therefore, Isabel was either killed in the house, or the other dogs had some sort of hit in the house leading to another person, item, or clue.

If we look at what we know, these convoluted theories involving the ball park or parents leaving the child or staging some sort of kidnapping after not realizing your child was missing for a night simply do not make sense. Most of the time, these cases are fairly simple, whether the crime was committed by a family member, friend, or stranger. If you're having to build assumptions on assumptions to get to the theory of the case, it's probably not a viable theory.

But, with all due respect..if we want SIMPLE.. then isn't it MORE simple to take a child from a park than to climb into a window of a fenced in house with dogs and four other people in the house?
Just sayin'.

And, to be honest... I actually DO think the parents or a relative have something to do with the disappearance, because that is THE simplest answer for me, but I don't want to go in that direction first if I don't have to!

 

[katydid23]

What if the boys were in their rooms, doing their own thing, or asleep by the time dad came home, and they have no clue she didn't make it home. What if dad is telling mom and boys and everyone else, I put her in bed, I tucked her in, I brought her home.

So the father forgets to bring his daughter home from the park that night, and the next morning, when he looks in the bed and realizes it, he decides to call 911 ? So when did he realize that he messed up? That morning?

 

[hotmomma35]

I believe that is was a guest (an actual connected to the case guest) on NG that said the 911 call was placed at 8:14 a.m. So that means that there is one verified problem with the neighbor's account, as she says that the police were at her door no later than 8:05. Not possible, and that to me, makes the rest of her statement non-credible. Especially when you consider that to hear her tell it, she was hearing these normal talking men's voices over the sounds of two sets of dogs "going nuts". Nope, I don't believe it. I think she had a bad dream and integrated that as she woke up, and that integrated voice that she heard was solidified in her mind as being related to the other events of the morning wen the police did come knocking on her door, probably around 8:30 a.m.

I thought of this when she was talking on NG... I don't think she is very accurate with any of her story... I'm not at all saying that she is lieing because she probably heard noise, but I really don't think its accurate info.. just a feeling i have...

 

[MvD]

What is the gang presence in Tucson?

I lived in Tucson from 2005-2008, and there was definitely enough gang activity to merit the police having a gang task force unit there. From what I heard/saw the gang violence was primarily against members of other gangs and drugs. IIRC, there were 2 gang related shootings at 2 different malls during my time there. There was a huge amount of car break-ins, although I personally attribute those more to petty thieves. We lived in one of the 'best' neighborhoods and still had a car broken into twice. There is (supposedly) a huge amount of drug running gangs from Nogales and other nearby Mexican towns.

 

[Pensfan]

I'm guessing that shoes would probably be cleaned at the ER, particularly given concerns over blood-borne pathogens. Same would go for instruments and things. I really can't see someone who worked in an ER tracking blood all over their carpets.

I don't know any nurses that clean the soles of their shoes unless they throw them into the washing machine. I took my hospital shoes off before entering my home. Hospital floors are filthy and an ER nurse doesn't have time to clean the soles of her shoes after every patient. The waiting line in ERs is HOURS long. The staff runs and wears running shoes!

ER nurses are exhausted after working a long shift (many times not able to have time to use the bathroom or eat lunch/dinner). Bandage tape is not thrown out with each use. Hemostats and scissors are wiped down with alcohol, but then quickly thrown in the pocket when the acuity and volume or very high and patients are dying, bleeding, or unable to breath. It would be great for everything to be perfectly sterile, but when you have to move like lightening to save lives, it doesn't always occur in the ER.

Pensfan
Verified psychiatric mental health nurse

 

[~n/t~]

I agree. We have two other older children in the home who would out the parents on this.

Yup especially interviewed by cops. Even if they said they didn't see/hear anything, experienced LE officers know how to get it out of them.

I don't think the parents did anything to Lisa. I do have concern about someone who may have wanted to harm this family for whatever reason.

It could be someone after mom
It could be someone after dad
or it could even be someone after the 14 year old brother.

JMO

 

[lillygator]

have they every come out and said what she was last wearing?