Found Deceased AZ - Isabella Grogan-Cannella, 8, Bullhead City, 2 September 2014 - #2

[Camdenres]

i guess my psychological make-up makes it physically impossible for me to feel empathy for a person i am also enraged with on behalf of the child.

I can feel great empathy for a mother who loses a child through no fault of her own. I can feel empathy for a mother who made a simple 'human' mistake (thought the fire was banked for the night, didn't know the curtains were too close, was wrong, house burns down killing children.)

when i find that a mother was knowingly exposing a child to unlawful, dangerous, risky circumstances, criminals and criminal behavior, when i see a parent can't be bothered to get off the couch and go physically look for their 6 year old when they haven't seen them for hours, when i see a mother put her children in the back of a seatless van of a strange man, allow the strange man to escort their little girl to the 'changing room' in exchange for the promise of a wal-mart gift card...when cps has stepped in before, given them a chance to straighten up, and they don't. When they clearly value their drug of choice, their grifter ways, their partying lifestyle, their rotation of boyfriends.....i just can not feel empathy. I can't feel it for the parent who doesn't value their child and empathize with their own child until they are dead.

Not all mothers are created equal. Some are sociopaths, narcissists, addicts. They themselves could not empathize with their own child. When i see that, i can not physiologically/psychologically empathize with that mother. I just can't. And i don't personally believe they automatically deserve compassion because they happened to have brought a human life into this world. That's not what makes a mother with a capital m, due all honors, respect, and compassion, in my opinion. What makes a mother is what you do when the child is here.

this!!

 

[skibaboo]

bbm



What has TG said that would jeopardize a JJR conviction? (serious question, not being contentious).

Maybe saying her 10 yr old daughter is "stressed and doesn't know that she's saying" The 10 yr old could be a key witness, and seems to have given credible details to LE.....? It's coming across like TG doesn't believe her own daughters account of the events.

 

[musicaljoke]

bbm

What has TG said that would jeopardize a JJR conviction? (serious question, not being contentious).

TG is a witness, of sorts, to what happened the night Bella was murdered. So far, although an arrest has been made, we don't really have any evidence that he is the murderer. He probably buried Bella, but did he kill her? TG has already made it very clear that not one word she speaks is credible. She has already given the accused an out, by stating that he wasn't there the night of the murder.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

I think a lot of women, who don't want to admit it, could easily end up in a "situation" like Tania's or any other women whose child is killed by their boyfriend. Not defending her in anyway. I am reading comments about Ray Rice, and there are so many people (including many women) who are blaming his wife for what happened. Saying it was a one-time thing, move on, she aggravated him, etc. They sound very vulnerable to toxic relationships. I don't believe any women who tries to rationalize domestic violence is also the type to kick out the boyfriend the second he lays a hand on her or her child. It just confuses me how in some cases, you will see many women putting an image of being strong and independent forward, while in other cases, you can see how ignorant and insecure many are. Things like "This is what happens when you always need a man!" doesn't seem to match up with "What did she do?" If you are the type to excuse abuse, to defend a complete stranger, then I definitely believe that you will (or have) excuse your own abuse one day. And I bet most of these cases where the child is killed by the boyfriend, there was plenty of warnings before.

 

[skibaboo]

I think a lot of women, who don't want to admit it, could easily end up in a "situation" like Tania's or any other women whose child is killed by their boyfriend. Not defending her in anyway. I am reading comments about Ray Rice, and there are so many people (including many women) who are blaming his wife for what happened. Saying it was a one-time thing, move on, she aggravated him, etc. They sound very vulnerable to toxic relationships. I don't believe any women who tries to rationalize domestic violence is also the type to kick out the boyfriend the second he lays a hand on her or her child. It just confuses me how in some cases, you will see many women putting an image of being strong and independent forward, while in other cases, you can see how ignorant and insecure many are. Things like "This is what happens when you always need a man!" doesn't seem to match up with "What did she do?" If you are the type to excuse abuse, to defend a complete stranger, then I definitely believe that you will (or have) excuse your own abuse one day. And I bet most of these cases where the child is killed by the boyfriend, there was plenty of warnings before.

BBM

JJR, wasn't and has never been (to my knowledge) TG's boyfriend.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

I haven't followed the case too closely. Anyway, there are still plenty of cases a year where the boyfriend does kill the child...why? Why does it happen so often? There are plenty of posts that say the same things that are said anytime we hear about a child killed by the boyfriend, so even if he was just a friend, the circumstances and reaction are similar.

 

[ChuckMaureen]

I'm sure everybody has been just dying to know what I think about this case, but I'm going to tell you anyway!:fence::laughing: I don't necessarily think there have been as many lies and story changes as most people seem to. My thoughts are:

JR told people he was leaving, and walked outside.

He then sneaked back inside and hid in the girl's bedroom.

When the girls saw him there, he told them not to tell anyone because they were playing hide and seek.

The parents came down, told the girls to get ready and go to bed, and then left for WM.

The sister may have gone to the grandmother's room and woke her up to say she couldn't find them, and she may have just said to call her mother and gone back to sleep. Many older people have trouble sleeping and take medication that can help them sleep through a lot.

When the sister told TG she couldn't find Bella or JR, they assumed she just didn't know he had already left before they did.

If they had been partying that night, TG may have been a bit high and/or drunk. When she said "they" took her, she may have thought CPS had taken her because of what they'd done earlier or for leaving her there with only a sleeping grandmother for supervision.

It's possible that all of these statements are true, and it's possible that none of them are. Because I don't know which is the case, I'm once more hung up on this stupid fence. MOO

This speculation is not much different than my own speculation posted earlier. It seems to be logical, as extrapolated from piecing together what we've heard from the various players.

TG's problems (story this, story that) might stem from a possibility she has become so used to taking a defensive stance against LE / courts, as public records reveal that she automatically attempts to deflect and defend.

 

[ChuckMaureen]

I didn't know about that -- that's sad....I really thought a shout out from someone could have been heard incorrectly because poor Bella was sure missing clothes and that would be great if those items had been recovered.
poor baby...

This should be an action packed week .... arraignment for RF 11th and hearing for JR on 12th ....hopefully there will be some results toward resolving some questions this week.

I'm wondering: "missing clothes" could sound like "missing toes" .. someone listening (while in a different room or in a noisy environment) to a news report on the story might have misheard the reporter and hence the incorrect social media comments about "toes were missing"....

 

[ChuckMaureen]

Maybe saying her 10 yr old daughter is "stressed and doesn't know that she's saying" The 10 yr old could be a key witness, and seems to have given credible details to LE.....? It's coming across like TG doesn't believe her own daughters account of the events.

Credible? To a degree. How do we *know* what she told LE is 100%? I am not implying an intent to mislead on the child's part .. just that a child, under undue stress, could misconstrue what s/he thinks they've heard and even what s/he think they've seen and then piece together (based on their life experience and brain-age) what makes sense *to them*.

 

[skibaboo]

I haven't followed the case too closely. Anyway, there are still plenty of cases a year where the boyfriend does kill the child...why? Why does it happen so often? There are plenty of posts that say the same things that are said anytime we hear about a child killed by the boyfriend, so even if he was just a friend, the circumstances and reaction are similar.

Oh I know eileen, I'm in agreement, I don't have an answer for you Just thought you were mistaken about their relationship.

 

[skibaboo]

Credible? To a degree. How do we *know* what she told LE is 100%? I am not implying an intent to mislead on the child's part .. just that a child, under undue stress, could misconstrue what s/he thinks they've heard and even what s/he think they've seen and then piece together (based on their life experience and brain-age) what makes sense *to them*.

I said 'seems' to be credible, as the description of clothing given by the 10yr old during the 911 call was accurate. IMHO

 

[ChuckMaureen]

Is this the first confirmation in news reporting that LE is "investigating possible rape":

Arizona girl, 8, was strangled; police investigating possible rape

http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-arizona-girl-strangled-20140905-story.html

Not that this was not expected .. but it's the first report I've seen on this specific.

 

[3blue1pink]

I guess my psychological make-up makes it physically impossible for me to feel empathy for a person I am also enraged with on behalf of the child.

I can feel great empathy for a mother who loses a child through no fault of her own. I can feel empathy for a mother who made a simple 'human' mistake (thought the fire was banked for the night, didn't know the curtains were too close, was wrong, house burns down killing children.)

When I find that a mother was knowingly exposing a child to unlawful, dangerous, risky circumstances, criminals and criminal behavior, when I see a parent can't be bothered to get off the couch and go physically look for their 6 year old when they haven't seen them for hours, when I see a mother put her children in the back of a seatless van of a strange man, allow the strange man to escort their little girl to the 'changing room' in exchange for the promise of a Wal-Mart gift card...When CPS has stepped in before, given them a chance to straighten up, and they don't. When they clearly value their drug of choice, their grifter ways, their partying lifestyle, their rotation of boyfriends.....I just can not feel empathy. I can't feel it for the parent who doesn't value their child and empathize with their own child until they are dead.

Not all mothers are created equal. Some are sociopaths, narcissists, addicts. They themselves could not empathize with their own child. When I see that, I can not physiologically/psychologically empathize with that mother. I just can't. And I don't personally believe they automatically deserve compassion because they happened to have brought a human life into this world. That's not what makes a Mother with a capital M, due all honors, respect, and compassion, in my opinion. What makes a Mother is what you do when the child is here.

I agree ! However , every time I see her say "I'll never hold her again" and sobs . I put myself in her position and I guess I'm emotional at how I would feel if I lost my child. Now that being said , I would never be in her precise predicament because I would never subject my child to that kind of lifestyle .

 

[tier]

I said 'seems' to be credible, as the description of clothing given by the 10yr old during the 911 call was accurate. IMHO

And it was the 10 year old who told LE about JR so that it was possible for them to know to pick him up on his walk back from walmart and find out about the clothes switch etc. And the shirt description was very detail orientated and complex not general in any way. Plus how and why would she come up with a completely made up statement about communication between JR and the mom? I see getting a detail wrong but not making it up altogether.

 

[gitana1]

I wonder if the 10 year old would be interviewed by LE. The only one who may have the truth, but perhaps will never be interviewed for a statement .. one that could be used for court as she wouldn't be put on the stand :moo:

The 10 year old would absolutely be interviewed.

http://www.mohavedailynews.com/news...cle_2b908420-3660-11e4-a821-0019bb2963f4.html

"Tania Grogan drove to Kingman on Saturday to ask Justin Rector a question. “I wanted to ask him why he did it, what did Bella do,” she said."

Seriously, is she really blaming Bella for getting herself murdered? SMH

To be fair, that's a very common question: "Why'd you hurt my child? What did he or she ever do to you?"

 

[bakerlady]

I'm wondering: "missing clothes" could sound like "missing toes" .. someone listening (while in a different room or in a noisy environment) to a news report on the story might have misheard the reporter and hence the incorrect social media comments about "toes were missing"....

If it was missing toes it was probably from an animal not JJR.

 

[3blue1pink]

amazing thank you!

RF -- 3rd ((if he was claiming himself as head of household etc))

or

TG-4th

but if it was just for the kids -- Bella's surname -- G-C I wonder if hers would be considered 2nd of the month = using C as her surname (hyphenated as it is G-C)

thank you so much

Benefits would've been deposited the prior business day as the 1st was a holiday .

 

[geevee]

Is this the first confirmation in news reporting that LE is "investigating possible rape":

Arizona girl, 8, was strangled; police investigating possible rape

http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-arizona-girl-strangled-20140905-story.html

Not that this was not expected .. but it's the first report I've seen on this specific.

It's been mentioned in other articles before but it's the first one I've seen that focuses on that aspect. If the autopsy is finished I'd think they know one way or the other, but maybe they're waiting for the lab results to come back with JJR's dna before comfirming.

Just moo

 

[3blue1pink]

amazing thank you!

RF -- 3rd ((if he was claiming himself as head of household etc))

or

TG-4th

but if it was just for the kids -- Bella's surname -- G-C I wonder if hers would be considered 2nd of the month = using C as her surname (hyphenated as it is G-C)

thank you so much

Does your friend know if she would've qualified for benefits ? I ask because if you have drug offenses in CA you can't get benefits . ( that may be just for cash aid tho I'm not sure)

 

[3blue1pink]

Does your friend know if she would've qualified for benefits ? I ask because if you have drug offenses in CA you can't get benefits . ( that may be just for cash aid tho I'm not sure)

RF couldn't be head of household . In AZ from what I've heard does not recognize common law marriage .