AZ - Timothy Romans, 39, & Vincent Romero, 29, slain, St Johns, 5 Nov 2008 - #1

[SoobsinMI]

While I agree that both a parent AND a stepparent should have the right to discipline children (my DH and I each had one when we married) I disagree with the action of having one parent discipline, when the one who WANTED the spanking, was available. In other words, you don't send someone else to do a job, that you should be doing.

Also, when I look at the ages of the parents, things become clearer. The mother was 18 when she had him, so 17 when she got pregnant. The father was 21 and 20 respectively. I can see this as a case of immaturity on the mother's part, not only her age, but her behavior, if news reports are to be believed. I also understand why the mother hasn't requested custody of the child....if she doesn't live in the state, are the courts willing to let the child leave? And if not, how would the mother support them, and find a place to live?

There seems to be a bit of dysfunction in this family dynamic.

 

[Bobbisangel]

8-year old gun owners are not common or normal, even in rural areas.

The folks I know who hunt only allow their children access to the weapons under adult supervision. The kids are carefully trained, and the guns stay locked up when they're not hunting.

I was raised in a country community in Washington state and it was the normal thing for young kids to have a gun of some sort. Most had BB guns or pelt guns and shot birds, etc. BB guns can be dangerous too. In the community that I was raised in men hunted and taught their boys to hunt too. They hunted deer and every other animal that a person could eat. The men were loggers and it was a fact of life that hunting was a part of their lives and a part of their sons lives. Something they all looked forward to. I don't remember any of the boys ever abusing the right to carry a gun. No one shot their parents or anyone else. It is all a part of country living. I can remember young boys getting together and taking their guns off to the fields to shoot birds, etc. No one worried about them. This was a normal way of life and I would imagine it still is.

 

[chiperoni]

The gun didn't kill anyone the boy did. Most children who have grown up shooting guns don't kill people.
There is a lot of information i wish we were privy to as to why the boy would do this. Being that he had a hunter background; he knew what death was and that he could cause it.
What would lead him to do such a drastic thing?

No, most children, don't but some do. If he didn't have access to the gun this wouldn't have happened. Obviously it is important that an eight year old child who has a gun, use it under adult supervision. Eight year old children don't have the impulse control or wisdom to use a gun unsupervised and if nothing else he/she could accidently shoot someone. He might have the greatest skill in shooting but at eight years old he does not have the maturity to use his gun unsupervised. We really do not know what his eight year old mind knew about death. He knew when he shot a pesky aqnimal it was a good thing and gome. We don't know if he thought his father would be gone forever and ever. Obviously he didn't think about the consequences.. jail. I want to say I lived in the snow country with my husband (an avid hunter} for five years and our children did not have unsupervised access to rifles or guns at eight years of age. I didn't know anybody who did. We've got to wait and see what happened to cause this sad chain of events.

 

[Bobbisangel]

We only have the mother's story on that...besides she thinks he didn't kill anyone too.
(And she thinks blowing smoke in the kid's ear cures earaches.)

I was thinking the same thing. It doesn't sound like she spent that much time with the boy according to what the father's paperwork said. He has had the boy alone since the boy was 2 yrs old. The father isn't there to stand up for himself and so I will take everything the mother says worth a grain of salt. This dad was only 27 yrs old (?) when he was murdered. He took on the responsibility of his son at a young age which is rare for a male. It sounds like he was very protective of his son.

As far as the spanking goes due to leaving his school papers at school...I would bet that it had happened several times before and dad decided some punishment was in order this last time. Five swats isn't a big deal to me. What did she use....her hand? Spanking with your hand hurts you more then it does the kid! I spanked my kids if they really deserved it. That was in a generation where you could still spank your kids. In raising my grandaughter she got about three spankings in all of her growing up years. By then it was against the law to spank your children.

 

[Bobbisangel]

Another great post, I agree with totally.

I think this is why the town is backing away from this child. They knew how much his father doted on him.......how much fun he had..........how he had so much to be thankful for and they just cant comprehend why he would do such a thing.

I have always felt that fathers who gain full custody of their children are held up to a much higher standard in the courts. I am sure the Judge weighed everything.

imo

I remember another case we had here where the whole town supported the child who murdered his parent or parents. Can't remember who it was though but the town sure came together in support of the murderer. It's interesting that this town has totally backed away from this child. It is pretty darn scary when a kid this young can plan out two murders the way he did though. It's just odd that no one is standing behind this boy while it was the opposite in the other town.

This dad was little more then a kid when he fought for custody and won it. That is unusual in itself. Here he was still a kid himself and the boy was only 2 years old. That is quite a responlibility...one that most young guys don't fight for. For so many years mothers always got custody of the children. I guess people still feel that a woman can do a better job of raising children then men can and so the men have to prove themselves. Now days a lot of men get custody or the wife just hands the kids over because she has to go "find herself" or she needs some space!

One paper said that the mom and dad had joint custody BUT she only saw the boy once a month which must have been one weekend out of the month. That is more like dad had custody and mom had visitation.

I still have the feeling that mom being there that weekend has something to do with the murders. Not that she did it but I just wonder if her and the boy had been talking about the custody case and mom maybe said some things that led this boy to do what he did. LE said that the boy had been planning the murders for quite a while. Maybe mom coming to visit and filling his head with who knows what was what brought it all to a head. If he wanted to live with her that is. He also may not have liked having to share his dad with his new wife of a couple months.

My heart goes out to the family of the other man who was murdered. How sad for the wife and daughters. Just because the dad was trying to earn a living for his family and had to stay away from home during the week. Now he is gone forever.

 

[MeoW333]

We only have the mother's story on that...besides she thinks he didn't kill anyone too.
(And she thinks blowing smoke in the kid's ear cures earaches.)

I had made that comment prior to reading more info upon the mother.

 

[MeoW333]

No, most children, don't but some do. If he didn't have access to the gun this wouldn't have happened. Obviously it is important that an eight year old child who has a gun, use it under adult supervision. Eight year old children don't have the impulse control or wisdom to use a gun unsupervised and if nothing else he/she could accidently shoot someone. He might have the greatest skill in shooting but at eight years old he does not have the maturity to use his gun unsupervised. We really do not know what his eight year old mind knew about death. He knew when he shot a pesky aqnimal it was a good thing and gome. We don't know if he thought his father would be gone forever and ever. Obviously he didn't think about the consequences.. jail. I want to say I lived in the snow country with my husband (an avid hunter} for five years and our children did not have unsupervised access to rifles or guns at eight years of age. I didn't know anybody who did. We've got to wait and see what happened to cause this sad chain of events.

Evidently according to many hunting families on here; it is very common for 8 year olds to .22 rifles. The exception to the amount of them do not kill people with them. A .22 does not have much stopping power; it's known as a great starter gun; unless the person firing it knows the vital spots to hit; which the 8 year old boy did.
If the father didn't know whether or not the boy should have the gun and he had to consult a priest about it rather than go with his own judgement; he should have got the boy a BB gun like the stepmother said. Any doubt in his mind as to whether or not the boy was ready should have been an automatic "no." Some children mature differently from others. This boy was a product of a broken home as well. His birth mother seems highly incompetent from the info others have gathered.

 

[lizzybeth]

This is just my take on the step-mother. I think she was controlling. She wanted to hear everything the little boy said to his mother on the phone. Why? Was she doing something that she didn't think the mother would approve of? When my kids talk with their dad I leave the room. I know for a fact that they won't open up to him if I'm there.

The step-mother was probably more upset that he didn't bring home the papers than the dad. Since she was the one making a big deal out of it the dad told her to spank the little boy.

I've seen it too many times where the step parent is jealous of the child/children from a previous marriage/relationship. They take that anger out on the child.

BTW, I would never ask a step-dad to spank my child for me. No way. Yes, the step-parent should have some say in discipline and the child should know they have to respect the step-parent but no way, no how are they going to dole out punishment on my child. I think it could cause the child to resent the step-parent too.

 

[OkGrace]

This is just my take on the step-mother. I think she was controlling. She wanted to hear everything the little boy said to his mother on the phone. Why? Was she doing something that she didn't think the mother would approve of? When my kids talk with their dad I leave the room. I know for a fact that they won't open up to him if I'm there.

The step-mother was probably more upset that he didn't bring home the papers than the dad. Since she was the one making a big deal out of it the dad told her to spank the little boy.

I've seen it too many times where the step parent is jealous of the child/children from a previous marriage/relationship. They take that anger out on the child.

BTW, I would never ask a step-dad to spank my child for me. No way. Yes, the step-parent should have some say in discipline and the child should know they have to respect the step-parent but no way, no how are they going to dole out punishment on my child. I think it could cause the child to resent the step-parent too.

I do not know enough about the SM to know if this was the case.

I do have a niece who had a SM from hell, who would listen to all conversations and the minute Dad was out the door would put my niece in a room by herself, she called her a *advertiser censored*. Extremely Jealous. My Niece was about 6 years old at the time. Dad and SM divorced thank goodness. If I would have known (she told me years later) I would have tried to do something, it shaped this child forever.

I am not bashing Steps, I had one who was absolute GOLD (who did not discipline us,). Alot of my friends were not so lucky.

I just cannot even wrap my mind around an 8 year old doing this, I just cannot imagine any reason for it . The reports seemed to show he thought it out and just did it. Scary and heartbreaking.

 

[southcitymom]

This story is so haunting. From everything I read, I believe the Father loved his son very much and was trying to do the best thing for him - to give him a good life. My 8-year-old doesn't own a gun (we live in Atlanta and are not hunters), but he knows how to use a B-B gun via Boy Scouts and target practice that we sometimes do in our backyard. I am not judgmental of the fact that this 8 year old knew and could use guns, though I agree this may not have happened had he not had that knowledged and experience - but we can't KNOW that for sure. Had a gun not been available, he may well have stabbed them in their sleep - we just can't know the level of his rage. However, we do know that guns make such actions easier because there is a huge disconnect when a gun is used to kill.

There is nothing to lead me to believe that this boy was being hardcore abused - frankly, the dysfunction of his family doesn't seem that over the top. All families have some type of dysfunction. The bottom line is that most (99.999%) 8 year olds will have feelings and issues surrounding a divorce and a new marriage and being punished, but they will not react to those feelings by planning and carrying out the murder of a parent and a witness.

I'm not impressed with the Mother. She left this child in the hands of strangers after he did this and, frankly, I can't get over that.

I do believe this boy killed these men. I do believe this boy snapped in the most inappropriate way imagineable, and I do believe he is damaged in a way that may not have been at all noticeable to those closest to him. Possibly, he was born this way.

That said, there's no part of me that can give up hope for an 8-year-old child. I trust the legal system to get this boy help and not throw him into a punitive prison-type environment where he is sure to harden into something beyond our reach.

My prayers for everyone touched by this tragedy.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I sure don't think you are overthinking this.

An 8 year old is a very young child and should, under no circumstances, be charged as an adult.

I think rarely....sometimes they just get lucky in catching psychopathic children early.

I am not saying this child is, just that it does indeed happen. When it does, I believe keeping that child in a very secure environment for as long as possible is indeed the way to go.

Regardless....THIS child knew the consequences of murdering two people. He knew right from wrong. Unless someone can prove at least one of these two dead men did something absolutely horrific to this child......he needs to be tried as an adult so he can get at least the next ten years of intense therapy.

 

[twinkiesmom]

When you guys snipped the Mom article, you left out the following:


Ms. Bloomfield said that after her son told her that his father and
stepmother quarreled often, "I called Tiffany about that, and I think I got
my son into trouble."


"The next time I talked to him about it," she added, "he said that Tiffany
told him that 'what happens in this house stays in this house.' "

 

[TGIRecovered]

No, most children, don't but some do. If he didn't have access to the gun this wouldn't have happened. Obviously it is important that an eight year old child who has a gun, use it under adult supervision. Eight year old children don't have the impulse control or wisdom to use a gun unsupervised and if nothing else he/she could accidently shoot someone. He might have the greatest skill in shooting but at eight years old he does not have the maturity to use his gun unsupervised. We really do not know what his eight year old mind knew about death. He knew when he shot a pesky aqnimal it was a good thing and gome. We don't know if he thought his father would be gone forever and ever. Obviously he didn't think about the consequences.. jail. I want to say I lived in the snow country with my husband (an avid hunter} for five years and our children did not have unsupervised access to rifles or guns at eight years of age. I didn't know anybody who did. We've got to wait and see what happened to cause this sad chain of events.

Given the age of his parents, I'd say that the liklihood of prenatal exposure to alcohol is high. I found this:

"Impulse control has NOTHING to do with knowing the rules or understanding the consequences when rules are broken. Impulse control is a neurological function of the frontal lobe, which is damaged by prenatal exposure to alcohol. The frontal lobe, when it functions properly, controls inhibitions and judgment."

http://www.come-over.to/FAS/ImpulseControl.htm

Even if alcohol exposure was not a factor, children's brains do not finish making all of the neurological connections necessary to reliably control impulses until much later than 8 years old. I have read that our brains are still developing these connections until our early twenties.

Susan

 

[Ms Suzanne]

Hi
His mother may not have been able to afford to get to see her son alot.Did dad offer to help?It is his responsibilty to disciline his own son.This is not the step moms son and I feel she has no right to touch this kid.My husband's new wife better not ever touch my son.That is inappropiate and not right.I don't want to start trouble there it's just the way I feel about my son and my children.I feel his Father must have been a very controlling person as the step mom.It is rude to stay in the same room when this little boy is on the phone with his mother and the Father probably isn't as wonderful as every one thought he was.If every one loved him and thought he was so great.Why didn't his own son think so?This kid isn't going to kill someone he loves.What did the father do to him to get this child to feel about him that way?I really would like to hear this childs story.I feel he needs psychological help.Not the juvinile court.I do feel sorry for him and this story makes me very sad to read it.But I also feel he knew exactly what he was doing.what led up to this?

suzanne

 

[Linda7NJ]

I was thinking the same thing. It doesn't sound like she spent that much time with the boy according to what the father's paperwork said. He has had the boy alone since the boy was 2 yrs old. The father isn't there to stand up for himself and so I will take everything the mother says worth a grain of salt. This dad was only 27 yrs old (?) when he was murdered. He took on the responsibility of his son at a young age which is rare for a male. It sounds like he was very protective of his son.

As far as the spanking goes due to leaving his school papers at school...I would bet that it had happened several times before and dad decided some punishment was in order this last time. Five swats isn't a big deal to me. What did she use....her hand? Spanking with your hand hurts you more then it does the kid! I spanked my kids if they really deserved it. That was in a generation where you could still spank your kids. In raising my grandaughter she got about three spankings in all of her growing up years. By then it was against the law to spank your children.

Just wondering where you live that it is illegal to spank your kids?

 

[twinkiesmom]

IMO tv & video games should be used on a VERY limited basis anyway. While I myself would never spank my kid for the above, I don't have a problem with another parent doing so.

This child apparently played video games continuously....

 

[twinkiesmom]

Had a gun not been available, he may well have stabbed them in their sleep - we just can't know the level of his rage.

My prayers for everyone touched by this tragedy.

I think if the gun had not been available, he could have killed one of them but both in rapid succession? This is an 8-year-old and two grown men (not to mention the stepmom sleeping beside the dad). If one had fought back, another could have been alerted.

I wonder if this kid was exposed to violent video games as well as the shooting of the prairie dogs? I wonder if the boy was forced to "man up" at an early age? His dad rejected the BB gun for a 22....why?...not masculine enough? not lethal enough?

 

[southcitymom]

I think rarely....sometimes they just get lucky in catching psychopathic children early.

I am not saying this child is, just that it does indeed happen. When it does, I believe keeping that child in a very secure environment for as long as possible is indeed the way to go.

Regardless....THIS child knew the consequences of murdering two people. He knew right from wrong. Unless someone can prove at least one of these two dead men did something absolutely horrific to this child......he needs to be tried as an adult so he can get at least the next ten years of intense therapy.

I agree with you Linda. Whatever needs to happen to get this child help is what needs to happen. I just don't believe in throwing a child this age into a penal institution which, as I think we all know, just tends to breed more hardened criminals.

What an 8 year old may have known about the adult "real" world consequences of killing two people, I just can't say. My 8 year old would probably tell me that if a person kills someone they will go to jail, but does he really know what that means - I doubt it.

 

[southcitymom]

I think if the gun had not been available, he could have killed one of them but both in rapid succession? This is an 8-year-old and two grown men (not to mention the stepmom sleeping beside the dad). If one had fought back, another could have been alerted.

I wonder if this kid was exposed to violent video games as well as the shooting of the prairie dogs? I wonder if the boy was forced to "man up" at an early age? His dad rejected the BB gun for a 22....why?...not masculine enough? not lethal enough?

I agree with you about the gun making this easier both physically and psychologically.

Twinkies, by all accounts so far, this seemed to be a loving father. I understand that we don't know all the details yet, but I can't make the leap to the worst without more details. That's just me.

As we've learned on this thread, it's not aberrantly unusual for an 8 year old to be able to handle a 22. It's odd to me because I'm a non gun owner who lives in the city, but others have a different way of life which I can respect even if I don't fully understand it.

I also want to say that I too dislike the idea of realistic violent video games (have NO idea if they played an issue in this young boy's life) for a child this age. That said, some of the super hero stuff my 8 year old watches has cartoon violence - as did the Bugs Bunnies that I was weened on.

The Catholic Church says 7 is the age of reason - when a person knows right from wrong. In a very broad general way, I agree with this. However, I also believe that an 8 year old slips in and out of fantasy and reality during the course of a day and that most 8 year olds don't have anything that resembles a full understanding of the legal and spiritual consequences of their behavior.

 

[Trino]

I think if the gun had not been available, he could have killed one of them but both in rapid succession? This is an 8-year-old and two grown men (not to mention the stepmom sleeping beside the dad). If one had fought back, another could have been alerted.

It was not night. No one was sleeping anywhere. The step-mother was not home. The father was killed inside the house. The boarder who was on his cell with his wife was summoned by the boy yelling for him to come inside the house. When he did, he was also killed.

There is no law in AZ that requires a gun be kept locked. IMO there should be one.