AZ - Timothy Romans, 39, & Vincent Romero, 29, slain, St Johns, 5 Nov 2008 - #1

[Blue_Dolphin308]

I dont agree with that. A child 6 or 7 knows right from wrong.

If he had no reasoning abilities or he could not have set this crime up and LE said it was a planned out murder.

Doesn't mean though, believe, that he cannot be punished in someway for his crimes.

If tried it will be in juvie so he isn't going to get life no matter how many people he may have murdered.

imoo

A child may know right from wrong, but in this case he might have felt that the only hope to get away from abuse was to take desperate measures. I don't condone it, but I certainly do understand it. I strobgly beleive this kid was being abused, and felt he had no other choice but to do this.... you never know what goes on behnd closed doors.

 

[Blue_Dolphin308]

If abuse was happening in the home concerning this boy then CPS would have complaints on it.

None were ever lodged against this father.

imoo

Nope not nessasarily I was abused for 8 years, and only a few people knew I was being abused, and they absolutly refused to do anything. Plus I hid it quite well. Alot of people turn a blind eye, because they would rather not get involved. And sexual abuse does not leave scars, therforw it would not raise suspicion.

 

[Blue_Dolphin308]

If the child kills the dad due to abuse and a wish to live with the mom, what is the reason to kill the boarder?
To cover-up. He most likely came home during or right after the killing and was trying to leave the home, as he was shot on the doorstep.

An 8 year old knows it's wrong to kill his father with a gun, hides the fact, kills a witness and lies to the police.

Unless he was being abused by both of them, and felt he had to do what he did to both. We ahve seen plenty of cases here where victims have sought revenge, for the abuse they have ahd to suffer for multiple years. The mom may not have picked up on it if it was sexual abuse, so therefore she would not have reported it.

 

[Blue_Dolphin308]

He will not be thrown under a bus. If he is tried at all......it will be in juvie.

He could have murdered 40 people and that is still what he would get if he is even tried.

I have never known an physical abuser that did not leave marks.........my ex husband sure left them on me and my father when I was a child. However being abused IF that is even true is no excuse to murder anyone.......no matter how old the killer is. If he was being abused then he could have told his mother and she could have called the police.

And the child does not have to report, although many children are doing so these days, from how it use to be years ago. CPS gets calls all the time from other people.

imoo

Obviously you have not been an abuse survivor, because if you have been, then you would know that the abuser often tends to threaten the victim into not telling. Thats one way they get the victim to keep there dirty little secret. I was threatened with so many things as a child, from haveing a pet killed, to haveing my parents killed, to being thrown in jail, to being watched all the time. All because my damn abuser wanted to do what he wanted with me, and wanted me to keep silent so that he could continue doing what he wanted and as a child I was too afraid to tell.

And we are not nessasarily talking about physical abuse. I am mainly talking about Sexual abuse, and that does NOT leave marks.

I do not condone his behavior, nor do I support it. But if he was truely being abused then he does NOT need jail, he needs mental health treatment to help him get over the horrific abuse he had to go through.

 

[Blue_Dolphin308]

And because there are no complaints doesn't mean there was abuse being done either.

It seemed like this father and his family was extremely well liked by all in his community and his church. He even went to the Priest for guidance whether he should teach his son how to go hunting. He seemed like a very concerned father to me.

imoo

You wanan know how many people are well liked in there communities?? And then you go behind closed doors, and they are actually child abusers, or wife abusers??? I have seen time and time again, where the whole community thinks the man next door is sucha good person, and how he is a role model, etc, only to find him charged with child abuse or another similiar crime. You can be well liked in the community, but once you go behind closed doors you can see who the real person actually is.

 

[Bobbisangel]

This is not your typical 8 year old. His dad "was an avid hunter who taught his son how to use a rifle to kill prairie dogs". He knew those prairie dogs were not getting back up.
Oh I'm sure he didn't foresee all the ramifications, but he did know what death was.

That is just what I was thinking. Children that hunt with their dad or parents see death all of the time. Children who live on farms see animals mate and give birth all of the time. It's no big deal for them where kids who live in the city...young kids...have no idea what it is all about. Kids who go hunting go to kill certain animals. Some they can take home and eat and some they can't but they know those animals aren't living once they are shot.

I don't want to jump in here and condem the father and his friend. We have heard nothing bad about either man and know nothing about them. For all we know the boy....after seeing his mom...just wanted to go live with her and he is old enough to know that dad couldn't allow it. They may have talked about it before and dad explained why he couldn't go live with his mother. Maybe he just figured if dad was dead then he couldn't stop him.

LE know the motive according to the newspapers. They just aren't releasing that information. I think it is interesting that it happened while mom was visiting. So she high tailed it back home right after the murders. She didn't even stay to support her son or to see what was going to happen to him.
That kind of speaks for itself in my opinion.

 

[SuziQ]

An 8-year-old boy is due in court Monday to face two counts of premeditated murder in the shooting death of his father and a friend, a hearing on the same day mourners were to gather for a funeral. (more at link)

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=157&sid=4735047

 

[Bobbisangel]

If the judge decides to send this boy home until he goes to trial...who is going to take him? His dad just got married in September after waiting for two years to get married. Is his wife going to be willing to bring the boy home and take care of him? Personally, I wouldn't. I wouldn't relish laying in bed every night wondering if I was going to be murdered in my sleep. I'll be surprised if the judge even considers sending him home though.

There are kids who are born sociopaths. Mental health won't even bother counseling them now as they can't be helped. There are tests that can be done to tell if a child is a sociopath. I was told this by a wonderful therapist who counseled my granddaughter for years after her mother was murdered.

 

[twinkiesmom]

If the boy was hunting prairie dogs, he was not taught to kill for food but rather for the thrill of it.

It seems obvious that not every 8-year-old would have the mental/emotional capacity to deal with killing for sport even in a hunting friendly family. (And I do know families where hunting is taught in a respect for nature/living off the land sort of way.)

Eight year olds are babies....they should be taken to see Bambi, not shooting Bambi.

If he was taught to kill for the thrill of it, & given the family dysfunction, I'm not surprised he turned the gun on the person who taught him to kill in the first place.

 

[Bobbisangel]

If the boy was hunting prairie dogs, he was not taught to kill for food but rather for the thrill of it.

It seems obvious that not every 8-year-old would have the mental/emotional capacity to deal with killing for sport even in a hunting friendly family. (And I do know families where hunting is taught in a respect for nature/living off the land sort of way.)

Eight year olds are babies....they should be taken to see Bambi, not shooting Bambi.

If he was taught to kill for the thrill of it, & given the family dysfunction, I'm not surprised he turned the gun on the person who taught him to kill in the first place.

What family dysfunction? Because his parents were divorced and dad remarried in Sept? If so, that doesn't make the family dysfunctional in my book.

 

[twinkiesmom]

What family dysfunction? Because his parents were divorced and dad remarried in Sept? If so, that doesn't make the family dysfunctional in my book.

I'm sorry to be un-PC, but a child needs his mother, and his was out of state. But what I was referring to was the following:

http://www.azcentral.com/12news/news/articles/2008/11/08/20081108stjohns-CP.html
Melnick said police had responded to calls of domestic violence at the Romero home in the past, but police were searching records Saturday to determine when those calls were placed.

 

[MeoW333]

If the boy was taught hunting without respect for the animal; sport hunting; raised around domestic violence; he probably was abused. I am curious to see what the reports say when the police get them on when they were called to the house. Calls is plural; so police must have been there more than once on domestic violence. If his father was fighting with his stepmother; surely he'd fight with his son as well.

 

[MeoW333]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/11/10/national/main4587265.shtml?source=mostpop_story

""It's an incredibly unusual case," Murphy told Early Show anchor Maggie Rodriguez. "We hear about 8-year-olds accidentally shooting a gun. This was execution style. So I think it's fair to say there was something pretty awful going on behind closed doors."

 

[gaia227]

There is a difference between taking your son hunting for a game animal like a deer which you kill, then process the meat and sometimes the hide for a practical use and taking your son hunting to shoot prairie dogs for no other reason than to shoot them for fun. What does that teach a child about life? It teaches a child violence for the sake of violence. I am not saying that because he shot prairie dogs with his dad that means he is going to be a murderer. I do think that parents have to take their childs personality into account when making a decision to take them hunting. Some children who are not as mature as others do not fully understand the concept of death. Especially when they are being taught to kill things because they can. What kind of respect for animals and the environment is that kid going to have as an adult.

I completely understand the need to hunt for population control. Overpopulation leads to horrible deaths. I don't think that is a big issue in the prairie dog community.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I am just amazed at how so many already have this boy as being abused. I must have missed that confirmation.

Good grief, the victims in this double homicides don't have a chance to even be recognized as victims. They are just already named as abusers. It just is appalling to me that THIS boy took two people's live and it is all about.....< aww poor kid and well it serves the dad right because he taught him to use a gun and took him hunting.> That is such a slap in the face to the millions and millions of hunters who have hunted since they were a small children and have never pointed a hunting weapon at another living soul in their lives......not even those who were grossly abused by their parents.:furious:

And how in the heck did the sexual abuse get thrown in? It is very interesting how some will rally around the killer in an attempt to bash the homicide victims in a crime.

Never mind that it is standard operating procedure that when a minor murders that abuse is check out no matter if it exist or doesn't! It is always done to further the investigation.

I will respect these two homicide victims who have lost their lives senselessly and tragically. His father did NOT teach him to kill human beings.

And for those of you who are so up in arms about the prairie dogs being shot then I suggest you get Arizona to change their laws because it is legal to hunt what is considered varmints and prairie dogs are listed on the AZ DNR website as a legal animal.

All I know is the Police Chief said the boy confessed why he planned and carried out this and the PC seems to be livid about the reason he gave for these crimes. It speaks volumes to me. It must be so horrendous that they are trying to see that he is charged with double homicides which is a precedence. If it were anything to do with abuse they would not be this outspoken on wanting justice for these two men who were murdered imo.

 

[MeoW333]

Oceanblueeyes; it's not a slap in the face to families of hunters. Those are families; the boy came from a broken home, his parents were divorced.
We already know the police were called to the home in the past at least twice for domestic violence.
It's obviously not a case of a complete loving family; mother & father & son living together happily; as may be the case with those who have come from other hunting families.
My grandfather was an avid hunter (yes he only killed for food and brought the meat/carcass home); and we have no murderers on that side of the family. His parents also remained together until natural deaths and kept all 6 of their children in line.
An 8 year old is a child, children do not just up and kill 2 people for no reason; if they do it's likely we'll see them have some sort of disciplinary record. The boy wasn't a stranger to violence. We have him hunting prarie dogs for sport; possibly witnessing domestic violence. Something inside the little guy snapped in order for him to kill his father and their roomer. The child would have shown previous bad behavior in school otherwise. Children will act out in kindergarten or younger.
Two men lost their lives, and yes, they are victims.
An 8 year old boy is also a victim, in this case. Any child who will pick up a gun (that he was trained to use) and kill 2 adults; most likely has a reason for that and there is more to the story we aren't hearing yet.
Being that he's hunted before and his father was an avid hunter; well then, we know the boy should have respect for the weapon and how to use it.
The question is, why would he murder his own father and their roomer? Normal families of children who hunt don't do that. In this case, there is something else in the equation that led the boy to commit murder.

 

[MeoW333]

Oceanblueeyes; it's not a slap in the face to families of hunters. Those are families; the boy came from a broken home, his parents were divorced.
We already know the police were called to the home in the past at least twice for domestic violence.
It's obviously not a case of a complete loving family; mother & father & son living together happily; as may be the case with those who have come from other hunting families.
My grandfather was an avid hunter (yes he only killed for food and brought the meat/carcass home); and we have no murderers on that side of the family. His parents also remained together until natural deaths and kept all 6 of their children in line.
An 8 year old is a child, children do not just up and kill 2 people for no reason; if they do it's likely we'll see them have some sort of disciplinary record. The boy wasn't a stranger to violence. We have him hunting prarie dogs for sport; possibly witnessing domestic violence. Something inside the little guy snapped in order for him to kill his father and their roomer. The child would have shown previous bad behavior in school otherwise. Children will act out in kindergarten or younger.
Two men lost their lives, and yes, they are victims.
An 8 year old boy is also a victim, in this case. Any child who will pick up a gun (that he was trained to use) and kill 2 adults; most likely has a reason for that and there is more to the story we aren't hearing yet.
Being that he's hunted before and his father was an avid hunter; well then, we know the boy should have respect for the weapon and how to use it.
The question is, why would he murder his own father and their roomer? Normal families of children who hunt don't do that. In this case, there is something else in the equation that led the boy to commit murder; especially being that if taught a "hunter" he knows that when he kills something, it won't get up.
What led him to this point?

 

[twinkiesmom]

I will respect these two homicide victims who have lost their lives senselessly and tragically. His father did NOT teach him to kill human beings.

He's 8 years old, and his dad taught him to kill for fun, not for food. Blasting prairie dogs with a shotgun is a violent act, even if there is an overpopulation.

He was only 8, not 12, and not an appropriate age to be using firearms to kill living things....not enough maturity, not enough judgement at that age...He was taught to solve problems (varmints) with guns....He solved whatever problem he had that day with a gun. He should have been able to judge right from wrong but may not have been able to comprehend the eternal consequences of such an act.

I did not say he was abused....There is obviously something horribly, tragically wrong either in this child's mind or in that home or both.

 

[MeoW333]

Oops i posted twice.. can a mod delete post #116 for me?

 

[oceanblueeyes]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/11/10/national/main4587265.shtml?source=mostpop_story

""It's an incredibly unusual case," Murphy told Early Show anchor Maggie Rodriguez. "We hear about 8-year-olds accidentally shooting a gun. This was execution style. So I think it's fair to say there was something pretty awful going on behind closed doors."

Yep, sure they use the old line of "behind close doors" all the time. Sensationalism sells and it is a favorite for defense attorneys.

It is like trying to prove a negative.

They are right ........no one knows what goes on behind closed doors but they sure do push that something was going on even when it is just as likely that there wasn't.

But sinister titillations boost ratings when they infer without proof to any of it.

imoo