Babcock Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #5

[Grey-St]

I have an interesting question that I'm hoping to get some feedback on.

Does anyone think that all these players now understand today how truly insignificant they were to DM? SS, AM, MH, CN, his own parents, and then lastly... MS? Oh, Smichy. DM didn't love you. You weren't his brother. Psychopaths lack the ability to form any real attachment. After all, he was going to try and pin every single crime, on you.

Everyone serves a purpose to DM, until essentially, they no longer do. What happens then? Is it fair to speculate that all these players have come to this understanding today? I can appreciate that this may be unsavoury, even scary, to think about, and likely requires a level of awareness, rationality or critical thought that many of them don't possess or don't want to exercise.

Thoughts?

 

[Dion]

I'm really looking forward to the next trial. I don't think there's any way around the fact that WM's death was a calculated, planned and deliberate murder. I can only hope there's enough evidence to prove so.

In one of his jailhouse letters (released during TB trial) he mentioned that he was reading a book by Leslie Abramson, the lawyer who defended the Menendez brothers.

He says he sees "similarities" so you can bet he is going to present himself as a poor little rich boy who was mistreated etc etc. No matter that his father seemed to be overly permissive - quite the opposite of authoritative and demanding.

So, the wheels are already turning for his next case, and the lies will be spewing forth, just like we have come to expect from him.
Like he didn't kill his father, but if he did kill him, it was the father's own fault.

 

[Grey-St]

In one of his jailhouse letters (released during TB trial) he mentioned that he was reading a book by Leslie Abramson, the lawyer who defended the Menendez brothers.

He says he sees "similarities" so you can bet he is going to present himself as a poor little rich boy who was mistreated etc etc. No matter that his father seemed to be overly permissive - quite the opposite of authoritative and demanding.

So, the wheels are already turning for his next case, and the lies will be spewing forth, just like we have come to expect from him.
Like he didn't kill his father, but if he did kill him, it was the father's own fault.

BBM. This, classic.

This is a really interesting bit of information that I hadn't picked up on from the letters. Thank you! I read up on the Menendez case quite thoroughly, and watched the SVU: True Crime special on it. It's fair to speculate that this is DM's next move.

 

[Dion]

I have an interesting question that I'm hoping to get some feedback on.

Does anyone think that all these players now understand today how truly insignificant they were to DM? SS, AM, MH, CN, his own parents, and then lastly... MS? Oh, Smichy. DM didn't love you. You weren't his brother. Psychopaths lack the ability to form any real attachment. After all, he was going to try and pin every single crime, on you.

Everyone serves a purpose to DM, until essentially, they no longer do. What happens then? Is it fair to speculate that all these players have come to this understanding today? I can appreciate that this may be unsavoury, even scary, to think about, and likely requires a level of awareness, rationality or critical thought that many of them don't possess or don't want to exercise.

Thoughts?

When it comes to his "friends" they probably don't care one way or another. They were also using him for what they could. He was the rich guy, who could provide them with free stuff and they could hang out and party at his place, use his pool (or even live there if they liked).

 

[NoodlesMcgee]

I have an interesting question that I'm hoping to get some feedback on.

Does anyone think that all these players now understand today how truly insignificant they were to DM? SS, AM, MH, CN, his own parents, and then lastly... MS? Oh, Smichy. DM didn't love you. You weren't his brother. Psychopaths lack the ability to form any real attachment. After all, he was going to try and pin every single crime, on you.

Everyone serves a purpose to DM, until essentially, they no longer do. What happens then? Is it fair to speculate that all these players have come to this understanding today? I can appreciate that this may be unsavoury, even scary, to think about, and likely requires a level of awareness, rationality or critical thought that many of them don't possess or don't want to exercise.

Thoughts?

MS is aware hence the attempt to pin it on him. If those letters hadn't come out - who knows if he had done the same.

I also think there is a question if anyone besides CN, AM and MS somewhat cared that much about him to begin with. He was a guy paying for everything and taking them places. Even MS - there was a part of him using DM for money and the alleged rap studio. Even the lying to police - I was suspect was more of 'no snitching', bro code and don't talk to the cops that a fair amount of people talk about today.

 

[Sossi]

I fix commercial airplanes for a living and after every job before I sign the aircraft out to fly I ask myself would I put my loved ones on this aircraft right now? That is the standard I have always held.

That to me defines reasonable doubt. I have no way of knowing everything about that aircraft’s condition, how good of a repair the guy across the country did four months ago, or what might happen on that flight.. But, I can and do determine that based on my limited knowledge of the situation that it is safe to put my kids and grandkids on that flight. It is imo safe beyond a reasonable doubt

For those that are having a hard time with MS’s guilt beyond a reasonable doubt I ask would you release him as “not guilty” of this crime and free to the public based on the massive amount of evidence provided if it was your personal call?

The only remotley plausible alternatives to the totality of evidence of planned M1 for MS I have heard are:

That he was only planning a human corpse incineration business and never planned on a murder but was happily surprised to incinerate for practice when a murdered girl just happened to turn up right under his nose. Then wrote and preformed a rap about it all to multiple audiences

Or,

That despite helping procure a commercial incerator and an illegal hand gun he had no clue what was going to go down.. total shock but luckily for DM he just so happened to be down with disposing of the body and happy to take and use many of the personal belongings of the victim. Then wrote a rap song because the whole experience was just to damn cool not to

Again.. Guilty beyond a Reasonable doubt is the bar

What if you knew that on release he would be living close to and potentially interacting with some of your unaware loved ones?

Thanks Stumper, I think you nailed it. Although I do not think MS is at the same level of clinical and malignant narcissist psychopath as DM, and I do believe he was manipulated and duped and was used as a disposable, lacky, alibi (someone to solely pin his crimes on) by DM, you have outlined clearly based on the evidence presented the criminal activity he participated in. Reasonable doubt - I do believe a guilty verdict could be obtained with the case presented by the Crown. IMO

 

[Sossi]

I have an interesting question that I'm hoping to get some feedback on.

Does anyone think that all these players now understand today how truly insignificant they were to DM? SS, AM, MH, CN, his own parents, and then lastly... MS? Oh, Smichy. DM didn't love you. You weren't his brother. Psychopaths lack the ability to form any real attachment. After all, he was going to try and pin every single crime, on you.

Everyone serves a purpose to DM, until essentially, they no longer do. What happens then? Is it fair to speculate that all these players have come to this understanding today? I can appreciate that this may be unsavoury, even scary, to think about, and likely requires a level of awareness, rationality or critical thought that many of them don't possess or don't want to exercise.

Thoughts?

One of the reasons why victims of psychopaths are reluctant to report abuse is the embarrassment of being duped. I think some of these folks do realize the fact that they didn't mean anything to DM but the need to save face, not having the strength of character to admit they've been had and the media attention on them could have the effect of keeping them in denial and/or pushing it under the rug. This is in alignment with your last sentence. IMO

 

[Oreck]

I'm really looking forward to the next trial. I don't think there's any way around the fact that WM's death was a calculated, planned and deliberate murder. I can only hope there's enough evidence to prove so.

Can they use evidence from this trial at the next?

 

[Inspector_North]

In one of his jailhouse letters (released during TB trial) he mentioned that he was reading a book by Leslie Abramson, the lawyer who defended the Menendez brothers.

He says he sees "similarities" so you can bet he is going to present himself as a poor little rich boy who was mistreated etc etc. No matter that his father seemed to be overly permissive - quite the opposite of authoritative and demanding.

So, the wheels are already turning for his next case, and the lies will be spewing forth, just like we have come to expect from him.
Like he didn't kill his father, but if he did kill him, it was the father's own fault.

That may hold true for WM's murder, but their LB murder may have more similarities to Richard Loeb and Nathan Leopold. MOO

 

[Inspector_North]

Can they use evidence from this trial at the next?

Only if it's directly related to the case. We have seen evidence from the TB trial used in this trial. The Eliminator, gun dealer, texts, and letters. But only presented as they directly relate to this case. MOO

 

[gremlingrrl]

Her parents are both chiropractors and own their own business, so even though their home is small. They probably have a fair amount of money saved because of their professions? MOO


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Yes, and maybe ​they have money put away *because* their house is small. Not everyone wants to spend 25 years paying off a mortgage, and owning a giant home isn't everyone's priority.

 

[XFP]

I noticed something a little jarring in the text messages. 8 days before SS noticed the rotting smell he attributed to an “incomplete burn”, DM and MS had a clearly articulated plan to pursue a Dodge 3500 the next day. I wonder if we’ll ever really know the extent of the destruction these two actually wrought.

How sadly true. Their "titty bar" meetings surely wreaked of destruction.

 

[Stumper]

For those that feels MS’s confession was merely bragging to look tough to some kids..

When someone helps procure an illegal handgun, helps obtain and test “with bones” a commercial incinerator with no defendable legit purpose, is in same location of the victim at her last trackable mouments, helps test the incinerator (with what is believed to be female human bones by a top expert), gleefully documents the whole experience in pic and videos, writes a detailed rap song that corresponds with every piece of available evidence, has possession of the last known items to be on the victims person..

My opinion is that when that same person brags in detail about that exact crime to look bad *advertiser censored* to a group of high school kids it becomes pretty hard for him or his supporters to complain about unfair process and unfair assumptions. It gets to the point that even if in the 1 in a million chance he wasn’t involved in the plan and he just bragged to look cool then.. CHARGES, TRIAL AND A M1 CONVICTION.. Sorry buddy, guess that’s just part of the occupational hazard of the illegal gun buying, girl body incinerating, murder rap writing, brag confessing, badass gangsta lifestyle I suppose. Unfortunately choices do have consequences

Again “beyond reasonable doubt on the totality of the evidence” is the standard. Not “is there any far flung but remotley possible explaination that might explain away a particular piece of the key evidence”

It’s designed that way to strike a balance between the threat of wrongful convictions to innocent people and the threat of releasing dangerous criminals to prey upon more unsuspecting victims

 

[Georgeo]

For those that feels MS’s confession was merely bragging to look tough to some kids..

When someone helps procure an illegal handgun, helps obtain and test “with bones” a commercial incinerator with no defendable legit purpose, is in same location of the victim at her last trackable mouments, helps test the incinerator (with what is believed to be human bones by a top expert), gleefully documents the whole experience in pic and videos, writes a detailed rap song that corresponds with every piece of available evidence, has possession of the last known items to be on the victims person..

My opinion is that when that same person brags in detail about that exact crime to look bad *advertiser censored* to a group of high school kids it becomes pretty hard for him or his supporters to complain about unfair process and unfair assumptions. It gets to the point that even if in the 1 in a million chance he wasn’t involved in the plan and he just bragged to look cool then.. CHARGES, TRIAL AND A M1 CONVICTION.. Sorry buddy, guess that’s just part of the occupational hazard of the illegal gun buying, girl body incinerating, murder rap writing, brag confessing, badass gangsta lifestyle I suppose. Unfortunately choices do have consequences

Again “beyond reasonable doubt on the totality of the evidence” is the standard. Not “is there any far flung but remotley possible explaination that might explain away a few pieces of the key evidence”

It’s designed that way to strike a balance between the threat of wrongful convictions to innocent people and the threat of releasing dangerous criminals to prey upon more unsuspecting victims

I completely and totally agree! MS is not an innocent dupe. No way.

 

[Satchie]

For those that feels MS’s confession was merely bragging to look tough to some kids..

When someone helps procure an illegal handgun, helps obtain and test “with bones” a commercial incinerator with no defendable legit purpose, is in same location of the victim at her last trackable mouments, helps test the incinerator (with what is believed to be human bones by a top expert), gleefully documents the whole experience in pic and videos, writes a detailed rap song that corresponds with every piece of available evidence, has possession of the last known items to be on the victims person..

My opinion is that when that same person brags in detail about that exact crime to look bad *advertiser censored* to a group of high school kids it becomes pretty hard for him or his supporters to complain about unfair process and unfair assumptions. It gets to the point that even if in the 1 in a million chance he wasn’t involved in the plan and he just bragged to look cool then.. CHARGES, TRIAL AND A M1 CONVICTION.. Sorry buddy, guess that’s just part of the occupational hazard of the illegal gun buying, girl body incinerating, murder rap writing, brag confessing, badass gangsta lifestyle I suppose. Unfortunately choices do have consequences

Again “beyond reasonable doubt on the totality of the evidence” is the standard. Not “is there any far flung but remotley possible explaination that might explain away a few pieces of the key evidence”

It’s designed that way to strike a balance between the threat of wrongful convictions to innocent people and the threat of releasing dangerous criminals to prey upon more unsuspecting victims

From a legal text: https://en.m.wikibooks.org/wiki/Canadian_Criminal_Evidence/Print_version#/editor/T-7

belief that the accused is "probably guilty" is not sufficient and must acquit.

The standard as the ultimate burden of proof is "inextricably intertwined with that principle fundamental to all criminal trials, the presumption of innocence". The burden should never shift to the accused.

I don't think several hundred years of progress in justice (taking, for example, the witch trials of the 1700s as a starting point), should be thrown away just to express how we feel towards MS.

 

[mojatato]

I just had a thought.....perhaps DM kept the letters CN sent him and they made it back to his mom MB at some point. If CN wrote incriminating responses, would DM be able to use them in his defence? !! He could have instructed MB to save them

 

[Stumper]

From a legal text: https://en.m.wikibooks.org/wiki/Canadian_Criminal_Evidence/Print_version#/editor/T-7



I don't think several hundred years of progress in justice (taking, for example, the witch trials of the 1700s as a starting point), should be thrown away just to express how we feel towards MS.

I agree 100% with your link

20 years ago right back to way beyond 200 years before that, it would have been absolutely impossible to have near the amount and variety of evidence against an accused killer that we have against MS in this trail.

Yet convictions still happened.

Please show me in your links where they advocate for “wild unprovable possible theory’s for each specific piece of key evidence” over “guilty beyond a reasonable doubt based on the totality of available evidence”

Thanks in advance

 

[NoodlesMcgee]

I just had a thought.....perhaps DM kept the letters CN sent him and they made it back to his mom MB at some point. If CN wrote incriminating responses, would DM be able to use them in his defence? !! He could have instructed MB to save them

Unless they say that CN killed LB they aren't going to help much.

Throwing CN under the bus by saying she knew or something isn't going to help DM.

 

[Obes99]

I know I saw the location of the court listed in a post before but can someone remind me? I'm considering going tomorrow. Any tips from those who have been?

 

[jash]

Get rid of:
A) calculating gf that lives with parents
Or
B) mentally unstable acquaintance that is homeless, and comes with cash.

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Just like DM wondering if he should steal from "the *advertiser censored**hole or the nice guy".