GUILTY Bali - Sheila von Wiese Mack, 62, found dead in suitcase, 12 Aug 2014 #2

[PrimeSuspect]

I had another thought today. Remember the reports that said that Sheila was seen on CCTV in the lobby in the very early hours of the morning? I was wondering if that was when she took her jewellery and other valuables down to her lock box. She had been ripped off in the past by friends that HM let into their home. I wonder if she was unnerved by TS showing up (her brother said he thinks that she did not expect that) and decided to lock up a bit more of her stuff and request that no-one had access to the lock box but herself.

I imagine that she would have wanted to do this privately, when few people were around. As TS arrived around midnight, a late night trip down to the lobby to secure her valuables may have been a step she took to avoid being ripped off again while she was sleeping or not in her room. And HM did not seem aware that Sheila had requested that no-one else had access to her lock box.

The front desk would have been manned with a night crew member in a nice hotel like that. And police would not necessarily release that kind of info as it would be part of them building their case.

:thinking:

I think that may well be the reason SA, locking up the valuables for safe keeping. :yes:

I wonder, if deep in heart she knew what was coming. Makes me very sad, she was betrayed by the person she loved most in the world, like all victims of intimate partner murder. They think it won't happen to them, that their loved one would never stoop that low.

HM and her sidekick TS need to serve all their youth behind bars, ha! That will destroy that ego of hers. jmo

 

[Kamille]

I had another thought today. Remember the reports that said that Sheila was seen on CCTV in the lobby in the very early hours of the morning? I was wondering if that was when she took her jewellery and other valuables down to her lock box. She had been ripped off in the past by friends that HM let into their home. I wonder if she was unnerved by TS showing up (her brother said he thinks that she did not expect that) and decided to lock up a bit more of her stuff and request that no-one had access to the lock box but herself.

I imagine that she would have wanted to do this privately, when few people were around. As TS arrived around midnight, a late night trip down to the lobby to secure her valuables may have been a step she took to avoid being ripped off again while she was sleeping or not in her room. And HM did not seem aware that Sheila had requested that no-one else had access to her lock box.

The front desk would have been manned with a night crew member in a nice hotel like that. And police would not necessarily release that kind of info as it would be part of them building their case.

:thinking:

If the reports of SWM being seen in the lobby alone at 3:45am are true, I'm guessing she was having a very uneasy night for some reason, especially if she was still awake at 6:45am. You could very well be correct about the trip to the lobby. She was concerned about TS's presence and wanted to make sure her valuables were secure.

I think she may have been asleep when TS showed up at 8:40am also. I can't wait for the trial to find out all their movements between midnight when TS showed up at the resort and 8:40am when he entered SWM's room. I want to know what HM was up to during that time.

MOO

 

[LinasK]

I wouldn't be surprised if they both get murder and lengthy sentences. No pre-meditation. Possibly they may work out an extradition deal so they can serve time for their horrific crimes back in the states. They can send these two back to where they came from and still come out looking like the compassionate entity.

BBM. What would be our motive to extradite them back to the US to serve their sentences? The crime was committed in Bali, our prisons are full. She may think she's Amanda Knox, but she's missing the spin doctors.

 

[LinasK]

I think that may well be the reason SA, locking up the valuables for safe keeping. :yes:

I wonder, if deep in heart she knew what was coming. Makes me very sad, she was betrayed by the person she loved most in the world, like all victims of intimate partner murder. They think it won't happen to them, that their loved one would never stoop that low.

HM and her sidekick TS need to serve all their youth behind bars, ha! That will destroy that ego of hers. jmo

Yeah, let's see if her attitude changes "what it do"!

 

[nightwatch]

I've been looking through thread for exactly how long HM & TS were involved before this Bali trip. Anyone recall?

ciao

 

[SouthAussie]

I don't know if we ever worked out exactly how long HM & TS were together before the murder.

This article speaks of him talking to a friend in May of this year .. saying that he had visited the friend and was distraught over the death of his previous girlfriend and would never find love like that again. Same friend said that TS contacted her again at the start of August saying that he was flying to Bali in a few days.

Can we presume that they started going out together (or at least sleeping together) in May or June? .... seeing as HM is 3 months pregnant, presumably with his child. Though the previous girlfriend was killed in April in South Africa - so who knows how long she had been in South Africa. And who knows if TS is the father of HM's baby.

http://www.oakpark.com/News/Articles/8-19-2014/Complex-portrait-emerges-of-Tommy-Schaefer/

 

[Kamille]

I don't know if we ever worked out exactly how long HM & TS were together before the murder.

This article speaks of him talking to a friend in May of this year .. saying that he had visited the friend and was distraught over the death of his previous girlfriend and would never find love like that again. Same friend said that TS contacted her again at the start of August saying that he was flying to Bali in a few days.

Can we presume that they started going out together (or at least sleeping together) in May or June? .... seeing as HM is 3 months pregnant, presumably with his child. Though the previous girlfriend was killed in April in South Africa - so who knows how long she had been in South Africa. And who knows if TS is the father of HM's baby.

http://www.oakpark.com/News/Articles/8-19-2014/Complex-portrait-emerges-of-Tommy-Schaefer/

I think we determined, based on an Instagram picture of the two of them together on a sidewalk on one of their accounts, that they had at least known each other since sometime in late 2013. I don't think we've ever figured out when they "officially" were a couple although it was fairly recently prior to the murder that TS had acknowledged her on his Facebook. I wonder if anyone has a screen cap of that and can tell us what date that was.

And of course we don't know any of the names of people who were friends of HM that Sheila also suspected of stealing from her because the names are blocked. I wonder if TS was ever one of those people SWM mentioned to the police. I believe they at least went to the same high school, even if they are two years apart in age so they may have known each other for some time through mutual friends even if they weren't dating.

I also believe that TS was not in a relationship with the deceased ex girlfriend since at least Sept of 2013 when she left the country to go to school in SA.

MOO

 

[Orange Tabby]

A story in USA Today has some new information. Some excerpts:

Police say they have considerable evidence tying the suspects to the murder, including security-camera footage from the hallway leading to Sheila Mack's room, bloody fingerprints on the suitcase, the heavy glass ornament believed to be the murder weapon, and DNA from blood on Schaefer's and Heather Mack's clothes. [BBM]

One security-camera video showed Schaefer hiding something under his shirt while entering the Macks' room before the murder, police said.

The question of whether the murder was premeditated will play a key role in sentencing if the suspects are found guilty.

If convicted of a planned murder, each will face execution by firing squad or life in prison with no possibility of parole. If convicted of a heat-of-the-moment killing, they will face 15 years in prison, with the possibility of release in 12 years for good behavior.​

See: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/09/19/bali-suitcase-murder-confessions/15891049/

My notes:

1. The police now list only a single murder weapon (“the heavy glass ornament”) whereas earlier there were multiple references to two glass weapons. I always thought that two murder weapons would help prove both of them participated in the attack. I still believe that Heather’s questioning is far from over and that the police will slowly try to chip away at her story, eventually yielding admissions which will go in the “premeditated” file.

2. This is the first reference I’ve seen to police specifically discussing Heather and Tommy’s bloody clothes. It will be very interesting if there is evidence not only of direct transfer blood stains (from handling the body), but also of spatter or spray or other types of stains which could be linked to the murder itself. This could still link Heather to the murderous attack.

3. This is the first time I’ve seen any reference to how much their sentence could be reduced for good behavior (ha—does that seem likely??) if one or both should be sentenced to murder rather than premeditated murder.

4. The police, in this article, do not list email, text messages, or phone calls between Heather and Tommy. I'm sure we will hear about such things in the weeks ahead. They could provide additional, vital evidence.

 

[nightwatch]

Thanks all for the response on the relationship. I was thinking how could TS be so enraged at Mrs Mack to kill her without some type if encouragement and or action from HM.

I would think TS should have been angry at HM if she lead him to believe his expenses would be paid. The fact Mrs Mack was not happy he was there could not have been a surprise to TS unless there was a plan or HM lied to him. Jmo hopefully all questions will be answered during the trial.



ciao

 

[Orange Tabby]

Some excerpts from another new report:

"Both of them have confessed," Bali Regional Police Chief Colonel Djoko Heru Utomo said. "Tommy was the one who carried out the killing."

"Heather thought that Tommy did not mean to kill her mother," Utomo said.

Mack's attorney declined a request for comment from ABC News.

"In Indonesia, you get credit for admitting and cooperating. So he might think this will save him some time if he is ever sentenced," said defense attorney Janet Johnson, who is not involved in the case. [BBM]​

See: https://gma.yahoo.com/couple-confes...ews-topstories.html?soc_src=mediacontentstory

This story doesn’t say what lawyer ABC contacted, but if it was Elkin, it seems he has learned far too late that his media approach has only made things worse for Heather in Indonesia.

Note that the lawyer quoted at the end says Tommy “might think this will save him some time if he is ever sentenced.” Might think. But not necessarily so. The case against him for premeditated murder appears very strong. Surreptitiously concealing a murder weapon shortly before a murder is strong evidence, and the prosecution will surely argue that what was under his shirt was the item used to repeatedly strike a defenseless Sheila to death.

 

[ezywalker]

BBM. What would be our motive to extradite them back to the US to serve their sentences? The crime was committed in Bali, our prisons are full. She may think she's Amanda Knox, but she's missing the spin doctors.

The baby and Indonesia wishing to get rid of them. I know it's not the norm but I still think there's a moderate chance of it.

 

[east2west]

I'm still confused, did the murder occur on floor 3 or floor 6? TIA

 

[SouthAussie]

The baby and Indonesia wishing to get rid of them. I know it's not the norm but I still think there's a moderate chance of it.

Just curious, ezywalker ... is there some reason that you think Indonesia would want to get rid of them? Above and beyond all of the other foreigners that are in prison there?

Our citizens that are in prison there have had much more huge and ongoing publicity than HM & TS (just google Schapelle Corby or the Bali Nine, and you should see it all). As have had some UK prisoners there (likewise google Lindsay Sandiford).

And the US is not close to Indonesia in any political sense .. they do not even have an extradition treaty with them .. whereas Australia is somewhat close to them and does have an extradition treaty with them. But our prisoners are not shipped back here to serve out their sentences, even when we request it.

I could see the baby being shipped back to the US, but I just can't see HM & TS being shipped back - so am curious as to your thinking on the matter.

Thanks :seeya:

 

[Orange Tabby]

I'm still confused, did the murder occur on floor 3 or floor 6? TIA

According to a CNN article published on Friday, Djoko Hari Utomo not only says room 317, but notes clearly that they continue to investigate Heather. Her "I just saw it happen" story will not be accepted on her say-so alone:

What exactly happened in room 317 of the St. Regis Bali Resort and the exact role Heather Mack has is still under investigation, said Denpasar police Chief Djoko Hari Utomo.​

See: http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/19/world/...lled-suitcase/

 

[LinasK]

Just curious, ezywalker ... is there some reason that you think Indonesia would want to get rid of them? Above and beyond all of the other foreigners that are in prison there?

Our citizens that are in prison there have had much more huge and ongoing publicity than HM & TS (just google Schapelle Corby or the Bali Nine, and you should see it all). As have had some UK prisoners there (likewise google Lindsay Sandiford).

And the US is not close to Indonesia in any political sense .. they do not even have an extradition treaty with them .. whereas Australia is somewhat close to them and does have an extradition treaty with them. But our prisoners are not shipped back here to serve out their sentences, even when we request it.

I could see the baby being shipped back to the US, but I just can't see HM & TS being shipped back - so am curious as to your thinking on the matter.

Thanks :seeya:

She'll for sure lose custody of the baby at least by 2 years if not 6 mo., so maybe it will be placed with her step-siblings or his mother.

 

[ezywalker]

Just curious, ezywalker ... is there some reason that you think Indonesia would want to get rid of them? Above and beyond all of the other foreigners that are in prison there?

Our citizens that are in prison there have had much more huge and ongoing publicity than HM & TS (just google Schapelle Corby or the Bali Nine, and you should see it all). As have had some UK prisoners there (likewise google Lindsay Sandiford).

And the US is not close to Indonesia in any political sense .. they do not even have an extradition treaty with them .. whereas Australia is somewhat close to them and does have an extradition treaty with them. But our prisoners are not shipped back here to serve out their sentences, even when we request it.

I could see the baby being shipped back to the US, but I just can't see HM & TS being shipped back - so am curious as to your thinking on the matter.

Thanks :seeya:

Hi South aussie,
You raise some strong points. I am familiar with all those case's (I'm an Aussie).
I base my assessment on a vague notion of pre-meditative origin.
Pre - existing mental suscipility.
Baby.
I have worked in Indonesia for a few years, I just see them wanting to wash their hands of this.
Of course a deal will depend on the States willingness to have them.

 

[SouthAussie]

Hi South aussie,
You raise some strong points. I am familiar with all those case's (I'm an Aussie).
I base my assessment on a vague notion of pre-meditative origin.
Pre - existing mental suscipility.
Baby.
I have worked in Indonesia for a few years, I just see them wanting to wash their hands of this.
Of course a deal will depend on the States willingness to have them.

Thanks .. and my apologies, I did not realise you were a fellow Aussie.

Will be interesting to see the outcome, though I personally can still see both HM and TS sweating it out in Bali for many, many years.

 

[Confusion]

As usual, I apologize in advance if I'm repeating things that have already been said or asking questions that have already been answered. I've just been wondering about a few things like - How sure are they that it was her that requested the wake up call? Has an autopsy determined a fairly precise time of death? Was the ornament something from her room, or was it something that belonged to one of the 3?

I keep thinking about how HM treated her mother in the past and wondering if she actually committed the murder herself. In my befuddled brain, HM and TS could have planned to leave that morning, picking up the items from the lock box on their way out. After she killed her, she called and asked for a wake-up call for a time later than they planned to leave (so nothing would be discovered anything until they had already gone.) When he got there and found out that she was dead, he stuffed her in the suitcase and they left. She may have said that she'd testify that it happened in the heat of an argument if he would say he did it; otherwise she'd say that he came in with the ornament and just started attacking her.

I keep thinking they're giving them preferential treatment (to some degree) because the US has a reputation for responding violently when a perceived injustice is committed. I'm not saying one way or the other if I believe we deserve the reputation, but I do believe many people from many countries do. MOO

 

[nightwatch]

As usual, I apologize in advance if I'm repeating things that have already been said or asking questions that have already been answered. I've just been wondering about a few things like - How sure are they that it was her that requested the wake up call? Has an autopsy determined a fairly precise time of death? Was the ornament something from her room, or was it something that belonged to one of the 3?

I keep thinking about how HM treated her mother in the past and wondering if she actually committed the murder herself. In my befuddled brain, HM and TS could have planned to leave that morning, picking up the items from the lock box on their way out. After she killed her, she called and asked for a wake-up call for a time later than they planned to leave (so nothing would be discovered anything until they had already gone.) When he got there and found out that she was dead, he stuffed her in the suitcase and they left. She may have said that she'd testify that it happened in the heat of an argument if he would say he did it; otherwise she'd say that he came in with the ornament and just started attacking her.

I keep thinking they're giving them preferential treatment (to some degree) because the US has a reputation for responding violently when a perceived injustice is committed. I'm not saying one way or the other if I believe we deserve the reputation, but I do believe many people from many countries do. MOO

The first story they cooked up was a gang of robbers killed Mrs Mack.

ciao

 

[Orange Tabby]

I've just been wondering about a few things like - How sure are they that it was her that requested the wake up call? Has an autopsy determined a fairly precise time of death? Was the ornament something from her room, or was it something that belonged to one of the 3? [SBM]

Good questions, Confusion. The short answer is: we don't have definitive answers to any of these questions yet.

Wake-up call. I have always thought a 6:45 a.m. wake-up call was strange. Sheila was seen in the lobby of the hotel at 3:45 a.m. so a 6:45 a.m. wake-up call certainly wouldn't allow her much sleep. Why would she want to get up so early while on vacation? I have wondered if the things that happened after Tommy arrived and before that, with Heather, had Sheila concerned enough to want to phone someone in Chicago, maybe her brother. I believe 6:45 a.m. in Denpasar is 5:45 p.m. in Chicago (the previous day) and maybe that's the time her brother got home from work. Pure speculation on my part, including the fact that I don't even know where Sheila's brother lives.

I don't know of any theory which suggests Heather made the wake-up call request. Why would she have done that?

It's possible Sheila had some special day trip planned and that required being up early, in which case the early wake-up call is completely irrelevant to the murder.

TOD. When the autopsy findings were first made public (around Aug. 19, I think), the media reported that the time of death was something like 12 hours before Sheila's body was discovered. This makes no sense, because that would have put the TOD before her lobby walk at 3:45 a.m. Also, the police are now saying they believe the murder happened after 8:40 a.m., when Tommy is seen entering room 317. So we'll have to wait for further info as to what the autopsy actually found.

Murder weapon. The police are implying, but not saying outright, that what was concealed under Tommy's shirt when he entered Sheila's room at 8:40 is the murder weapon. If this is true, then it seems likely that it came from his room. (If you Google the Bali St. Regis, you'll find their website and it has lots of pictures of the accomodations in the resort. They are beautifully furnished and it seems entirely possible that the item used could have come from a St. Regis room.) It doesn't seem like Tommy had enough time to go out and purchase an ornament before the murder. But if he did do such a thing, that's yet another element against him.

The concealed item could be something other than the murder weapon. In that case, it would seem that whatever was used to strike Sheila came from room 317, either a furnishing provided by the hotel or something Sheila had already purchased during this trip. So any of your suggestions remain possible at this point.

Some of my details above could be slightly off or incorrect, so I welcome being corrected by other Web Sleuthers if that's the case.