GUILTY Bali - Sheila von Wiese Mack, 62, found dead in suitcase, 12 Aug 2014 #3

[Orange Tabby]

[SBM] Did you follow the Teleka Patrick case? Marvin Sapp was cleared early on in that case, despite LE saying he had co-operated, many people refused to believe it but during the time she was missing you never heard a peep, not a single person from his sizable congregation made any public comment, that's what I mean by "closed ranks". ...

I didn’t follow that case, so I can’t comment on it in any useful way.

To me, closing ranks implies that the people being silent are doing so as a method of support for someone or something. In the Mack murder, I reject this suggestion because:

1. If these people are cooperating with police and providing information about Heather’s violence or attitude toward her mother or her seething desire to get her hands on the family money, they are not supporting Heather but are, quite the contrary, working against her.

2. If these people are silent publicly, that may be frustrating to you and me, but it could be a choice borne entirely of motives having nothing to do with supporting Heather.

Since we don’t know who they are talking to or what they are saying and since there are tremendously good reasons to remain silent, I can’t support the idea that they are closing ranks without actual evidence of same. And, as far as we know, they are innocent bystanders, so I’m particularly uncomfortable with attributing to them an implied motive of protecting Heather.

I am not trying to start a fight with you and I apologize in advance if I seem combative. I enjoy your posts very much and have learned from you. I just feel strongly that people who we know to be innocent of this crime shouldn't be maligned simply because they don't want to speak publicly. Notice how few of Sheila's friends have spoken out against Heather. I don't think it is because they support that murderer. They have their reasons, even if we don't know them.

 

[SouthAussie]

Interesting point about the cessation of SSI benefits (and the consequent timing of Sheila’s demise). HM would then only have had whatever funds her mother gave her, or whatever money she earned for herself .

May be a reason for desperately wanting ‘her’ money … the money she may have felt that her father left to her. Even though I think that the terminology of the will was such that intended his money be used to raise her – which could have cost kabillions - not as a gift to her.

Within a family, a child may receive up to one-half of the parent’s full retirement or disability benefit, or 75 percent of the deceased parent’s basic Social Security benefit. However, there is a limit to the amount of money that can be paid to a family. The family maximum payment is determined as part of every Social Security benefit computation and can be from 150 to 180 percent of the parent’s full benefit amount.

If you are receiving benefits because you have a child in your care, the date your benefits will stop may be different than the child’s. If the child is not disabled, your benefits will end when he or she turns 16.

Benefits stop when your child reaches age 18 unless your child is a student or disabled.

The benefits then will usually continue until he or she graduates, or until two months after reaching age 19, whichever comes first.

http://www.ssa.gov/pubs/EN-05-10085.pdf

 

[Quester]

Interesting SouthAussie!

So should we assume HM will continue receiving the SSI checks for 2 more months only, since her 19th birthday is this Saturday, and she hasn't yet been charged with a crime?

Or, due to having been suspected of having murdered her mother, have/will those checks (Sept, Oct, Nov, Dec) cease or be put aside pending outcome of this case?

In any case, HM was looking at being pregnant, having dropped out of school so SSI checks would most likely end effective ?Jan? 2015, having no other income, TS in the picture with ?unkown-income?, not married, and probably saw mom as money bags and she-who-holds-the-purse-strings, and SWM may very well have said "N. O." to any request.

The plot thickens!

ETA: Actually, did SWM have the backbone to say N.O. to HM and follow through with it? Sounds like HM (& TS) no longer wanted to wait around to find out.

 

[Kamille]

I don’t think you can claim that folks have closed ranks even in a social sense, since none of us can have any idea of what these people are openly, perhaps even loudly, saying about Heather at parties, between classes (wherever they might be) at nightclubs, at fashion shows, in phone calls, in text messages, in emails, at the mall, at tailgate barbecues, and so forth. That is, in a true social milieu.

These people may not want their interviews for jobs, scholarships, university admission, internships, entrance to art conservatories, parts in a play and the like – for years or even decades to come – marred by the fact that before the interview is convened they have been Googled and found to have a link to notorious mother murderer Heather Mack. It seems we may agree at least partially on this aspect of the matter.

I expect no one here will judge your FB creeping, but I also expect those who see themselves as potentially to be creeped will have another view. They may have taken measures to protect their privacy, not to protect Heather. They may have merely chosen to keep their remarks from the prying eyes and ears of strangers who have no right and no good reason to be apprised of what they know and how they feel.

If they talk openly to law enforcement but not to the media or the public (including in public spaces like FB), I don’t see that as closing ranks. I see it as invoking their right to privacy. I can respect that.

BBM

Based on the vine videos of girls traipsing down the street with HM and the king of the "SQUAD...put em in a coffin" youtube videos, jumping on a hotel bed with HM, TS and the same "squad" dude, all having a rip roaring good time on SWM's dime while trashing said hotel room with all the alcohol and drug paraphernalia...I'd say you're giving some of these "kids" a huge benefit of the doubt as to their reasons for not commenting publicly regarding their friends, particularly HM who seems to be taking the brunt of the criticism.

But you're right, they probably likely are doing it amongst themselves on private facebook, instagram and other SM accounts. And I'm sure every time a new story comes out they discuss it amongst themselves when they are together. They just aren't doing it in public comments on news articles or other SM accounts that are ripping their friends apart. So perhaps it's a conscious decision on their part not to get involved. Maybe they don't have anything nice to say so why say anything at all and they know it would be a losing battle anyway since so many people are so against this pair for what they've done. Or perhaps they just don't care/can't be bothered. Out of sight, out of mind and all that.

In any case, you've raised another interesting question pertaining to the possible interrogation of friends by the FBI. Since MSM claims that they are the only LE agency involved with the Bali police in helping with the investigation, do you think they'd actually interview the friends to get some idea of what the mindset of this couple may have been with regards to their future?

MOO

 

[gracehatter]

I didn’t follow that case, so I can’t comment on it in any useful way.

To me, closing ranks implies that the people being silent are doing so as a method of support for someone or something. In the Mack murder, I reject this suggestion because:

1. If these people are cooperating with police and providing information about Heather’s violence or attitude toward her mother or her seething desire to get her hands on the family money, they are not supporting Heather but are, quite the contrary, working against her.

2. If these people are silent publicly, that may be frustrating to you and me, but it could be a choice borne entirely of motives having nothing to do with supporting Heather.

Since we don’t know who they are talking to or what they are saying and since there are tremendously good reasons to remain silent, I can’t support the idea that they are closing ranks without actual evidence of same. And, as far as we know, they are innocent bystanders, so I’m particularly uncomfortable with attributing to them an implied motive of protecting Heather.

I am not trying to start a fight with you and I apologize in advance if I seem combative. I enjoy your posts very much and have learned from you. I just feel strongly that people who we know to be innocent of this crime shouldn't be maligned simply because they don't want to speak publicly. Notice how few of Sheila's friends have spoken out against Heather. I don't think it is because they support that murderer. They have their reasons, even if we don't know them.

No need to apologize, again I believe as well that it may very well be springing from a desire to protect themselves and I respect those reasons as well. I did not use the phrase with a negative connotation, but that is one of the dangers of the internet, it is subject to interpretation and again no problem, I understand your point of view. At no time was I maligning anyone nor did I intend to, but when and if I do malign anyone on line, it will be intentional and very clear as to my intent, lol, trust me! Likewise, I was not indicating that any silence meant or should be interpreted as supportive of Heather, in fact I personally think it is indicative of just the opposite, however that is purely speculative on my part.

I am positive that anyone that is contemplating their feelings about being "creeped upon" on the Internet should feel at the very least anxious, that is why I tell my clients there is no right to any expectation of privacy in cyber space and one should proceed accordingly! Postings on social media sites have been used as evidence in legal cases for a number of years now and in fact I just read this week that the courts in New York have deemed that "summons" and notification on your Facebook pages in certain types of cases are indeed a valid form of service! :fence: I foresee issues with that. At any rate I enjoy your posts greatly and find them very enlightening.

Interesting SouthAussie!

So should we assume HM will continue receiving the SSI checks for 2 more months only, since her 19th birthday is this Saturday, and she hasn't yet been charged with a crime?

Or, due to having been suspected of having murdered her mother, have/will those checks (Sept, Oct, Nov, Dec) cease or be put aside pending outcome of this case?

I'm not even sure we can assume she was/is still receiving benefits only because we have Shelia making a statement earlier in the year indicating she was attempting to get Heather reengaged with "homebound schooling" which I take to mean home schooling. The SSA is well known for coming back and demanding repayment of funds received under false pretenses and since it's clear she is currently not in school I'd bet the checks have stopped.

 

[Kamille]

Interesting SouthAussie!

So should we assume HM will continue receiving the SSI checks for 2 more months only, since her 19th birthday is this Saturday, and she hasn't yet been charged with a crime?

Or, due to having been suspected of having murdered her mother, have/will those checks (Sept, Oct, Nov, Dec) cease or be put aside pending outcome of this case?

In any case, HM was looking at being pregnant, having dropped out of school so SSI checks would most likely end effective ?Jan? 2015, having no other income, TS in the picture with ?unkown-income?, not married, and probably saw mom as money bags and she-who-holds-the-purse-strings, and SWM may very well have said "N. O." to any request.

The plot thickens!

ETA: Actually, did SWM have the backbone to say N.O. to HM and follow through with it? Sounds like HM (& TS) no longer wanted to wait around to find out.

Looks like those benefits should have ended last October 11th when she turned 18 since she is not a student. What on earth did she do with her time after dropping out of school? :waitasec:

MOO

 

[sourgrapes]

So by "parent's basic Social Security benefit" are they referring to the parent's monthly benefit amount? As in, the amount the parent would have received once they reach 65, or their predetermined retirement age? So, if a parent would have been eligible to receive $1850 per month at the age of retirement, them their surviving minority children would be eligible to receive a monthly amount that is between $950 and $1387.50 (or, 50% to 75% of the parent's eligible monthly benefit)?

I read the pamphlet at the link, but the benefit amount wasn't clear to me. If it is, then that is quite a lot of money for a minor child to receive; especially a dropout do-nothing'er like HM. Then, that 'squad' comment would make perfect sense. It would also point to motive on the murder, as her benefit may be due to end this weekend. right?

ETA: As the poster above me pointed out, her benefit would have most likely ended last October and not this October. That is, unless she were to provide SSI with evidence of attendance in a primary or secondary school, then it would end three months after her 19th birthday.)

 

[Orange Tabby]

Based on the vine videos of girls traipsing down the street with HM and the king of the "SQUAD...put em in a coffin" youtube videos, jumping on a hotel bed with HM, TS and the same "squad" dude, all having a rip roaring good time on SWM's dime while trashing said hotel room with all the alcohol and drug paraphernalia...I'd say you're giving some of these "kids" a huge benefit of the doubt as to their reasons for not commenting publicly regarding their friends, particularly HM who seems to be taking the brunt of the criticism.

But you're right, they probably likely are doing it amongst themselves on private facebook, instagram and other SM accounts. And I'm sure every time a new story comes out they discuss it amongst themselves when they are together. They just aren't doing it in public comments on news articles or other SM accounts that are ripping their friends apart. So perhaps it's a conscious decision on their part not to get involved. Maybe they don't have anything nice to say so why say anything at all and they know it would be a losing battle anyway since so many people are so against this pair for what they've done. Or perhaps they just don't care/can't be bothered. Out of sight, out of mind and all that. [SBM]

I may have misunderstood gracehatter’s post, and if so, the fault is entirely mine. I thought she was talking about friends from Heather’s past, people she knew when she was a student at OPRF High School. I then assumed we were talking about different folks from the Conrad escapade. You make me think I could have been wildly wrong to make that assumption.

I said things like acting jobs and conservatory applications because OPRF HS has a history of graduates in the arts. And Heather reportedly took a class at Second City and apparently expressed an interest in acting. Among the OPRF students preceding her were artsy types Ted Levine (Leland Stottlemeyer in “Monk”), Amy Morton (a well-respected actress here in Chicago), Mary Elizabeth Mastrantonio (who has always struggled to get herself a good role in a good film), Kathy Griffin (an occasionally funny comedienne), and John LaMontaine (a Pulitzer-prize-winning composer).

Ernest Hemingway is the most famous graduate of OPRF, and artsy type extraordinaire.

But I should probably invoke OPRF graduate Dan Castellaneta, and quote his most famous line, “Duh!” Because if gracehatter was talking about the others in the vids you mention, then there’s a clear and obvious explanation which I should have advanced:

If you’ve recently been fraternizing with someone now a murder suspect, and your previous cavorting with said murder suspect included such illegal activities as underage drinking and drug-taking, then nothing could possibly be a better strategy than to shut up tight and do nothing to draw attention to it. It’s still an invocation of privacy, but one done to draw cover over one’s own behavior which does not bear scrutiny.

It still does not follow that such silence represents an implied support of Heather, so I stand by my main point.

Thanks, Kamille, for focusing attention on some people who may know interesting things.

 

[Orange Tabby]

No need to apologize, again I believe as well that it may very well be springing from a desire to protect themselves and I respect those reasons as well. [SBM]

Thank you for your kind reaction. Warm and rummbly purrs to you ...

From Orange Tabby

 

[RR0004]

So by "parent's basic Social Security benefit" are they referring to the parent's monthly benefit amount? As in, the amount the parent would have received once they reach 65, or their predetermined retirement age? So, if a parent would have been eligible to receive $1850 per month at the age of retirement, them their surviving minority children would be eligible to receive a monthly amount that is between $950 and $1387.50 (or, 50% to 75% of the parent's eligible monthly benefit)?

I read the pamphlet at the link, but the benefit amount wasn't clear to me. If it is, then that is quite a lot of money for a minor child to receive; especially a dropout do-nothing'er like HM. Then, that 'squad' comment would make perfect sense. It would also point to motive on the murder, as her benefit may be due to end this weekend. right?

ETA: As the poster above me pointed out, her benefit would have most likely ended last October and not this October. That is, unless she were to provide SSI with evidence of attendance in a primary or secondary school, then it would end three months after her 19th birthday.)

And can't that benefit be used to take care of the child? I don't think it went directly to HM- she was the minor child. Maybe that p*ssed off HM to no end.

 

[Orange Tabby]

BTW, there are many interesting people who have graduated from OPRF High School.

In addition to the people I mentioned in a previous post, here are a few more: Wallace S. Broecker (the geologist who coined the term “global warming”), James B. Herrick (the doctor who identified sickle cell anemia), Otto Kerner, Jr. (governor of Illinois in the 1960s), Charles Simic (former Poet Laureate of the U.S.), Bruce Morton (CBS News), Ray Kroc (founder of McDonalds, a OPRF student but not a graduate), and for our esteemed Australian colleagues, I mention last (but not least) Walter Burley Griffin (who Wikipedia claims was the city planner who “designed” Canberra).

Assuming Wikipedia can be trusted! See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oak_Park_and_River_Forest_High_School#Notable_alumni

 

[Kamille]

BTW, there are many interesting people who have graduated from OPRF High School.

In addition to the people I mentioned in a previous post, here are a few more: Wallace S. Broecker (the geologist who coined the term “global warming”), James B. Herrick (the doctor who identified sickle cell anemia), Otto Kerner, Jr. (governor of Illinois in the 1960s), Charles Simic (former Poet Laureate of the U.S.), Bruce Morton (CBS News), Ray Kroc (founder of McDonalds, a OPRF student but not a graduate), and for our esteemed Australian colleagues, I mention last (but not least) Walter Burley Griffin (who Wikipedia claims was the city planner who “designed” Canberra).

Assuming Wikipedia can be trusted! See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oak_Park_and_River_Forest_High_School#Notable_alumni

Sounds like a distinguished list. Lets hope no one adds the entry Tommy Shaefer (murdered Chicago resident Sheila Von Wiese Mack in Bali and stuffed her in a suitcase)

 

[Kamille]

I may have misunderstood gracehatter’s post, and if so, the fault is entirely mine. I thought she was talking about friends from Heather’s past, people she knew when she was a student at OPRF High School. I then assumed we were talking about different folks from the Conrad escapade. You make me think I could have been wildly wrong to make that assumption.

I said things like acting jobs and conservatory applications because OPRF HS has a history of graduates in the arts. And Heather reportedly took a class at Second City and apparently expressed an interest in acting. Among the OPRF students preceding her were artsy types Ted Levine (Leland Stottlemeyer in “Monk&#8221, Amy Morton (a well-respected actress here in Chicago), Mary Elizabeth Mastrantonio (who has always struggled to get herself a good role in a good film), Kathy Griffin (an occasionally funny comedienne), and John LaMontaine (a Pulitzer-prize-winning composer).

Ernest Hemingway is the most famous graduate of OPRF, and artsy type extraordinaire.

But I should probably invoke OPRF graduate Dan Castellaneta, and quote his most famous line, “Duh!” Because if gracehatter was talking about the others in the vids you mention, then there’s a clear and obvious explanation which I should have advanced:

If you’ve recently been fraternizing with someone now a murder suspect, and your previous cavorting with said murder suspect included such illegal activities as underage drinking and drug-taking, then nothing could possibly be a better strategy than to shut up tight and do nothing to draw attention to it. It’s still an invocation of privacy, but one done to draw cover over one’s own behavior which does not bear scrutiny.

It still does not follow that such silence represents an implied support of Heather, so I stand by my main point.

Thanks, Kamille, for focusing attention on some people who may know interesting things.

So do we think the FBI had an interest in speaking with this group? Just what do we think the FBI is helping with? We know they did a second autopsy on behalf of Sheila's family. Did they provide cell records? Computer forensics? Criminal records?

 

[Orange Tabby]

So do we think the FBI had an interest in speaking with this group? Just what do we think the FBI is helping with? We know they did a second autopsy on behalf of Sheila's family. Did they provide cell records? Computer forensics? Criminal records?

Sorry, I should have said the first time you brought this up: I am thinking about your question. I'm not sure if I can add anything to the discussion, but I am reflecting on what you have asked.

 

[Kamille]

So by "parent's basic Social Security benefit" are they referring to the parent's monthly benefit amount? As in, the amount the parent would have received once they reach 65, or their predetermined retirement age? So, if a parent would have been eligible to receive $1850 per month at the age of retirement, them their surviving minority children would be eligible to receive a monthly amount that is between $950 and $1387.50 (or, 50% to 75% of the parent's eligible monthly benefit)?

I read the pamphlet at the link, but the benefit amount wasn't clear to me. If it is, then that is quite a lot of money for a minor child to receive; especially a dropout do-nothing'er like HM. Then, that 'squad' comment would make perfect sense. It would also point to motive on the murder, as her benefit may be due to end this weekend. right?

ETA: As the poster above me pointed out, her benefit would have most likely ended last October and not this October. That is, unless she were to provide SSI with evidence of attendance in a primary or secondary school, then it would end three months after her 19th birthday.)

Wouldn't that amount be prorated to what the parent had put into it up until the time of death? Then again, JM was already at the age to collect SS for himself at the time of his death and had likely been paying into it for a very long time so I guess HM would have received a substantial amount monthly from SS death benefits as his minor child? But like RR0004 questioned, wouldn't that have gone to her caregiver for her care? And yeah...I can imagine that would have really irked her if and when she found out about this SS death benefit afforded to her and if SWM wasn't handing it over to her monthly. Would SWM have also received a portion of the SS death benefit on her own behalf as well?

MOO

 

[Orange Tabby]

Sounds like a distinguished list. Lets hope no one adds the entry Tommy Shaefer (murdered Chicago resident Sheila Von Wiese Mack in Bali and stuffed her in a suitcase)

It is an unfortunate possibility. The Wikipedia page for prominent people associated with the University of Washington lists Ted Bundy!

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_University_of_Washington_people

 

[Orange Tabby]

In any case, you've raised another interesting question pertaining to the possible interrogation of friends by the FBI. Since MSM claims that they are the only LE agency involved with the Bali police in helping with the investigation, do you think they'd actually interview the friends to get some idea of what the mindset of this couple may have been with regards to their future?

I definitely recall one of the Bali cops being quoted some time ago as saying that they had to “look backward” or something very much like that, to determine the motive. This would suggest that there should be interviews in Chicago. I have no special knowledge here and am only guessing: but I would think Bali LE would have to ask for things to be done before the FBI or local Chicago PD would proceed. (The fact that Bali LE hasn’t mentioned the Chicago PD or the Oak Park PD doesn’t mean anything to me. Bali authorities have proven themselves to be less than even averagely adept at communication.)

So what have they asked for? I would hope they requested cell records, computer forensics and criminal records, as you mentioned in a subsequent post. Financial records would make sense too: Sheila’s finances, Heather’s finances, a copy of the will, details on the trust, life insurance information, etc. would be important, I would think. Interviews with people who knew the suspects also makes good sense, particularly the ones involved in the Conrad incident.

But what they have actually asked for is a big unknown. If Bali authorities think they have enough evidence without “American interference” then many interesting aspects of this case could go unexamined. I think this is a genuine possibility, because I think the evidence they have may well be sufficient to prove premeditated murder against both of them.

I just don’t know and really have no good guesses.

 

[east2west]

Has it been reported how many suitcases were left behind at the hotel by the fleeing Duo? That would include the ones strewn in hotel garden as well the one hoisted into taxi cab boot.

 

[RR0004]

Wouldn't that amount be prorated to what the parent had put into it up until the time of death? Then again, JM was already at the age to collect SS for himself at the time of his death and had likely been paying into it for a very long time so I guess HM would have received a substantial amount monthly from SS death benefits as his minor child? But like RR0004 questioned, wouldn't that have gone to her caregiver for her care? And yeah...I can imagine that would have really irked her if and when she found out about this SS death benefit afforded to her and if SWM wasn't handing it over to her monthly. Would SWM have also received a portion of the SS death benefit on her own behalf as well?

MOO

Yes, I believe Sheila would have received the amount as well, but not sure if she had to reach a cerain age to do so. Her husband may have been on full-time disability...do we know?

ETA: I think she did qualify at age 60. (??) There is also a lump sum death benefit which is a silly amount.

 

[Kamille]

Has it been reported how many suitcases were left behind at the hotel by the fleeing Duo? That would include the ones strewn in hotel garden as well the one hoisted into taxi cab boot.

Great question. With some of the more recent claims, it is getting very confusing as to how many suitcases they all had between them and where they all were eventually found. We've heard there were two smaller ones placed in the back seat of the taxi as well as the offending larger one containing SWM's body placed in the trunk. We've also heard there were suitcases found in the gardens at the hotel, and that HM and TS fled through the back of the hotel and along the beach. I believe we've heard that they did not have any luggage with them when they checked into the hotel near the airport which made them look suspicious. So did they take luggage out the back with them when they were fleeing and decide to ditch it in the gardens because it was slowing them down? Did they drop it off the balcony during the clean up? I'm pretty sure that they had very basic suites at that hotel. The cheapest available and probably neither with oceanview. So they likely would have had some type of garden view, meaning that their balcony overlooked a garden area. I'm thinking that's how the suitcases got there and probably most likely from the 3rd floor room.

So did they each have a small suitcase of the belongings they wanted to take with them and the suitcase containing SWM's body on the trolley to take to the taxi? And they put all the bloody sheets and towels in other suitcases belonging to either SWM or HM and pitched them over the balcony while leaving all of SWM's clothing and belongings in the room?

If they had just gotten access to the passport(s) in the safety deposit box and they had been able to leave with the hotel front desk staff assuming SWM would be taking care of the bill for both rooms and no suspicion on their part, they probably would have figured out a place to ditch the suitcase with SWM in it on the way to the airport and got the heck out of the country ASAP IMO.

Then they would have made up a whole different story about why they left and flew home before SWM and said they had no idea what had happened to her after they left. The hotel would have found her belongings in her room, the gardener eventually would have found bloody sheets and towels in the garden and SWM would be a missing and presumed dead person (because of all the blood on the linens). The murdering duo would already be in the US and HM would be able to play the part of the grieving daughter and TS her supporting baby daddy.

Of course they didn't count on that hotel CCTV system catching the whole sordid ordeal on camera. Or that the front desk staff of a high end hotel like that are very good at their jobs and they don't bend the rules for anyone when it comes to their customer's requests regarding security boxes. Nor do they just let someone check out of the hotel without paying their tab on the assumption that another member of their party will cover it. It's likely that when a taxi is commissioned by the hotel for a customer, and the customer has luggage with them, that the taxi cannot leave without authorization from the security guard that the person has checked out. Some hotels actually give you a check out slip that you must show to a taxi or bus driver before you can leave the hotel with luggage.




MOO