Bosma Murder Trial 02.10.16 - Day 7

[Ontario Mom]

Juballee- I'm no expert in securing evidence, but IMHO, if there was any problem whatsoever with the admissibility or integrity of the trailer evidence, or if there was any question about LE's handling of the trailer, I somehow feel that one of the extremely talented and experienced defence teams would have brought that up on cross examination.

LE obviously have protocol that they follow and the defence did not question anything that Gibson did. They did not question the security at the compound. And, IMO, the officer escorting the trailer did the right thing when the doors swung open. She kept with the important evidence-the truck and trailer. And not only did she keep with the truck, she hit the box (remembering what the box looked like) and must have really put the pedal to the metal and got the tow truck pulled over 2 km up the road. At 110 km hr, 1 minute would cover 1.8 km. It must have seemed like forever for her, but in actuality it wasn't a significant period of time- 70 seconds? And then- she SECURED the trailer again and followed it to it's destination. If anything, the incident was a blow for the Crown because they have absolutely no idea what "could" have been in the box that fell out.

I know that everyone is entitled to their opinion, but IMHO, it seems counterproductive and distracting to continually cast doubt on evidence that has been clearly admissible to the Courts and acceptable by both the Crown and Defence. MOO

Well said. All of it. Thank you.

 

[ArianeEmory]

My current working theory is that Millard is sociopathic. I'm open to changing my mind. In the meantime I'll note that sociopaths often don't feel fear in the same way 'normal' people do. This would be consistent with that: Millard cool as a cuke and Smich in panic mode.

Ditto. While the definition of these types of diagnoses are constantly in flux, my opinion has always been, roughly, that DM is a sociopath but not a psychopath.

MS either fell under the spell of a charismatic sociopath, or is just a garden-variety criminal, or possibly both. I don't think he was in any way running this show, and he obviously had normal human reactions like fear, but I'm not cutting him any slack, either. He knew what they were doing was wrong and did it anyway.

 

[DeepWoodsOff]

Ok...after a night of absorbing informatin, I'm going to belabor a point but I promise this is my last comment on the trailer situation. We're trying to determine the impact of the trailer door flying open and an empty box flying out onto the road. We are trying to figure out the angle the defense is taking with it (so your eyes were not on the trailer for a couple of minutes while driving 110 km/h down a major highway....) and the impact it will have on the jury. Will it result in reasonable doubt? Personally I now think the jury is probably thinking about it the same way we are...not a huge deal. BUT the Crown introduced it to be fully transparent and disclose everything that happened throughout the investigation...even the less than perfect things. If they didn't bring this up, you know damn well the defense would and then how would that look? For the jury to hear about it only AFTER the defense asked about it would have been significantly more detrimental to the prosecution. MOO

 

[redwing7225]

I don't think that was a homemade trailer, it seemed to have made it to Mexico and back with the doors intact.

My question is, were there no hills between Klienburg and Hamilton? Why didn't the door open before?

Again, forgive me if this has already been answered, I am far, far behind tonight, but did the first officer in charge of moving the truck and trailer to Hamilton specify that he padlocked the rear doors and that they were secure before his leg of the trek?

This indeed may be the same trailer that went to Mexico however, if this is the case, modifications to the rear door system have taken place since that adventure.
Trailer that went to Mexico had a ramp with locking bars on each side of the back door. The trailer being towed clearly has "rear doors" which showed in a previous image, 1 locking bar requiring 1 lock to secure.
Not one to dispute, just trying to gather facts.

 

[Canadian4]

I don't understand DMs happy behaviour in the courtroom. He says he is innocent and being set up so where is the anger, where is the rage about this injustice being done to him. If I'm going to react I would want the jurors to see me upset and just overwhelmed about what was being said about me, not grinning like an idiot.

 

[Stratocaster]

...need clarification, after Brantford do they pick up the incinerator at the farm then head to the hangar, or do they head to the hangar after leaving Brantford because the incinerator is stored there??

 

[ArianeEmory]

...need clarification, after Brantford do they pick up the incinerator at the farm then head to the hangar, or do they head to the hangar after leaving Brantford because the incinerator is stored there??

From what I thought I understood, they pick up the incinerator at the farm using Tim's own truck. If new info has come out this week to contradict that, I'm sure someone will be along soon.

 

[DeepWoodsOff]

I don't understand DMs happy behaviour in the courtroom. He says he is innocent and being set up so where is the anger, where is the rage about this injustice being done to him. If I'm going to react I would want the jurors to see me upset and just overwhelmed about what was being said about me, not grinning like an idiot.

And wouldn't you be more sympathetic to the widow and family? Personally if I was in this situation I may not be showing anger but I would certainly be more meek or humble, patiently waiting for the evidence to come out that will clear my name. I certainly wouldn't be pulling the crap that DM is. MOO

Another thought that crossed my mind....the members of the jury are required to be 100% objective and if there is reasonable doubt...no conviction. But these are humans. No different than you or me. Now...if you are sitting on that jury and you are 98% sure that these guys are the ones but there is a smidge of doubt based on an angle the defense took...would DM's behavior in court possible push you that last 2%?

 

[DeepWoodsOff]

From what I thought I understood, they pick up the incinerator at the farm using Tim's own truck. If new info has come out this week to contradict that, I'm sure someone will be along soon.

Yes. What we have heard (I believe in the opening statement from the Crown) is that they have security video from a business close to the airport showing the incinerator arriving at the airport that night being pulled by Tim's truck.

 

[Tamarind]

I don't understand DMs happy behaviour in the courtroom. He says he is innocent and being set up so where is the anger, where is the rage about this injustice being done to him. If I'm going to react I would want the jurors to see me upset and just overwhelmed about what was being said about me, not grinning like an idiot.

It is my opinion that we don't know whether DM is 'grinning like an idiot' or simply smiling or even displaying his natural demeanor. I have friends who naturally have what appears to be a smiley face even when overloaded with a stressful situation. Playing to the jury I would assume is something DM can't be accused of. What would be the consensus if he were sitting there in floods of tears or with a nervous tic, I wonder ! Just my opinion.

 

[MsSherlock]

MsSherlock do you or anyone else know; if the defense has evidence or disclosure, do they have to share that with the Crown? I realize it's up to the Crown to prove their case BUT let's say...I'll give you a couple examples; the defense discovers a unclear, grainy video showing who the defense claims is the accused somewhere, nowhere near the crime scene at the time of the crime, or someone's testimony giving the accused an alibi, do they have to share that information prior to trial? TIA and MOO.

Swedie, the JG trial is a good example of this. In the JG case the D has had all sorts of evidence/information that they've brought forward while the Crowns witnesses are on the stand, not only surprising the Crown but taking the wind out of the Crowns case. What I gathered from the expert on the radio is this is what makes the Canadian system so strong- the Crown must do a very thorough job. He didn't mention any time that the D would be obligated to give disclosure to the Crown. MOO

 

[Tamarind]

And wouldn't you be more sympathetic to the widow and family? Personally if I was in this situation I may not be showing anger but I would certainly be more meek or humble, patiently waiting for the evidence to come out that will clear my name. I certainly wouldn't be pulling the crap that DM is. MOO

Another thought that crossed my mind....the members of the jury are required to be 100% objective and if there is reasonable doubt...no conviction. But these are humans. No different than you or me. Now...if you are sitting on that jury and you are 98% sure that these guys are the ones but there is a smidge of doubt based on an angle the defense took...would DM's behavior in court possible push you that last 2%?

If DM is actually innocent of murder, maybe he is smiling, or more likely in my opinion, displaying a congenial expression towards the widow. It may be his way of silently suggesting he is innocent and at the same time acknowledging her. We have no idea how he feels, but after what will soon be three years in jail, in solitary, I'm sure he feels relieved to be dealing with this situation and having some human interaction. Just the fact that someone has had very little human interaction for this time would make them feel somewhat uneasy in a situation with a large amount of people, including reporters, police and a family that may believe he is guilty. Just my opinion.

The type of demeanor that would irk me as a juror would be someone sneering at the victims family or snickering at evidence. jmo

 

[RandomName479]

A whole lot of cell phone info here in the Affadavit of Patricia McIlveen for those who want to dive into this. Many phone records.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/298928468/Affidavit-of-Patricia-McIlveen

It says the document has been deleted?

 

[SnooperDuper]

If DM is actually innocent of murder, maybe he is smiling, or more likely in my opinion, displaying a congenial expression towards the widow. It may be his way of silently suggesting he is innocent and at the same time acknowledging her. We have no idea how he feels, but after what will soon be three years in jail, in solitary, I'm sure he feels relieved to be dealing with this situation and having some human interaction. Just the fact that someone has had very little human interaction for this time would make them feel somewhat uneasy in a situation with a large amount of people, including reporters, police and a family that may believe he is guilty. Just my opinion.

The type of demeanor that would irk me as a juror would be someone sneering at the victims family or snickering at evidence. jmo

If DM was congenial towards TB's widow, you would expect him to look at her with sober sadness. Instead he smiles, which may as well be a sneer.

I think DM's behaviour horrifies everyone in their right mind.

 

[SnooperDuper]

It says the document has been deleted?

Yes, it was posted on a Spec article and it is gone from there too.

However it was just for the most part a loooong list of cell phone calls to and from TB's phone, with an appendix listing a bunch of cell tower locations, so the information really isn't usable unless like the LE officer we want to put 60 hours into making it make sense graphically!

I think we want to wait and see if the graphical exhibits from the current witness are released.

 

[Tamarind]

I chose the word panic somewhat loosely. Thus far Smich is the one who seems to have the more normal courtroom behaviour given he is being tried for murder. The behaviours are consistent with his circumstances. Fear of detection would be a normal response after killing a man, so we may be able to hypothesize Smich experienced this and acted accordingly. I agree that the evidence suggests he's shady and deliberately criminal.

We aren't likely to hear medical or psychological evidence on Milard in the Crown's case. For me it's the trail of bodies, the relaxed charm and the impression that he believes he can talk and smile his way out of this murder, and the emotionally 'off' courtroom behaviour. It's the gruesome bloody eye avatar given the manner of his father's death, the need for a personal incinerator and the apparent embrace of a fast life of stolen vehicles and criminality and setting his own hours over trying to make something of the business he inherited. It's like Paul Bernardo making a living smuggling cigarettes with his accounting degree. These types are too impulsive and thrill seeking for traditional adult responsibilities.

I see no trail of bodies. An avatar is no indication of someones behaviour IMHO. I see no similarity to Paul Bernardo at all but again that's my opinion. He has no criminal record so I am trying to grasp the suggested life of criminality ! It is my own opinion that I believe the cases of WM and LB were put on DM as a way to strengthen this case and create sensationalism in the press. It appears to have worked according to some public opinion. Again all MOO.

 

[Ontario Mom]

I think DM's courtroom behavior is revolting to most people, considering what he's sitting in court accused of doing.

If he's guilty of what he's being tried for (and I believe he is, 100%) his conduct (smiling, waving, turning in his chair to stare at SB, etc.) is one of no remorse whatsoever.

If he's innocent of what he's being tried for, at best, his conduct is such that he seems to lack any empathy whatsoever for the Bosma family. He's not even trying to fake it.

Either way you look at it, it's not good. I do think he's enjoying the attention, however.

 

[MsSherlock]

It is my opinion that we don't know whether DM is 'grinning like an idiot' or simply smiling or even displaying his natural demeanor. I have friends who naturally have what appears to be a smiley face even when overloaded with a stressful situation. Playing to the jury I would assume is something DM can't be accused of. What would be the consensus if he were sitting there in floods of tears or with a nervous tic, I wonder ! Just my opinion.

Could be Tamarind, but IMHO, his lawyers are not only their to defend DM, IMO, they should be preparing DM on a constant basis for his day in Court. I thought for a bit that maybe it was because he'd been locked up for so long, but then when I thought about it, I realized that DM has spent many hours in transit and in court rooms over the last many months. It's not like this is the first time he's had some time out of the jail. These are Crown witnesses that he's smiling at, waving at and holding his hand up for. This is the wife of the person who the Crown intends to prove was in DM's incinerator that he's locking eyes with and smiling at. There's a steep contrast between MS & DM's behaviour and I think this speaks volumes. At this point, I personally don't care if DM waves and smiles everyday. To me it not only indicates that DM does whatever he wants without consideration to the feelings of others, it also shows that he certainly does not recognize or respect authority. MOO

 

[Tamarind]

If DM was congenial towards TB's widow, you would expect him to look at her with sober sadness. Instead he smiles, which may as well be a sneer.

I think DM's behaviour horrifies everyone in their right mind.

I wouldn't expect him to look at her with sober sadness at all. No more than I would look at her that way three years after her loss. I'm sure she is trying to move forward and glum expressions everywhere she looks would be depressing IMHO. Who is to define who is 'in their right mind'? We all have individual personalities and I for one would not want people displaying glum, sad expressions for years to hopefully make me feel better. It would have the opposite effect. I could touch on personal experience to emphasize this point but expressing miserable faces does not necessarily help the bereaved. I think the truth will likely help her more and maybe thats what DM is hoping for. We will see.

 

[SnooperDuper]

I wouldn't expect him to look at her with sober sadness at all. No more than I would look at her that way three years after her loss. I'm sure she is trying to move forward and glum expressions everywhere she looks would be depressing IMHO. Who is to define who is 'in their right mind'? We all have individual personalities and I for one would not want people displaying glum, sad expressions for years to hopefully make me feel better. It would have the opposite effect. I could touch on personal experience to emphasize this point but expressing miserable faces does not necessarily help the bereaved. I think the truth will likely help her more and maybe thats what DM is hoping for. We will see.

DM grinning at SB is bullying. Maybe you don't know what bullying or bad behaviour is, but DM is it.

As MsSherlock wrote, "To me it not only indicates that DM does whatever he wants without consideration to the feelings of others, it also shows that he certainly does not recognize or respect authority."

ETA: if DM weren't in a courtroom, I am sure that he would be punched in the head for his behaviour. It's instigating.