Bosma Murder Trial 02.29.16 - Day 16

[Sillybilly]

Couple of post have been removed. A bit of levity here and there is fine, but please keep in mind that friends and/or family could be reading here and we should remain sensitive to that possibility.

:tyou:

 

[Sillybilly]

I see what you're saying, but to me it seems hard to imagine one of them being there before, during and after, yet only an being accessory after the fact. I wish we had joint venture liability here.

Example: Let's say MS knew they were going to steal a truck but didn't know about any plan to murder (so no premeditation of murder on his part), and MS was somehow elsewhere when TB was actually murdered (so not involved in the forcible confinement), but found out about it after the fact and helped cover it up, that would not constitute his involvement in 1st degree murder but would qualify as accessory after the fact.

Sorry for the run-on.

 

[iknowhim2]

Couple of post have been removed. A bit of levity here and there is fine, but please keep in mind that friends and/or family could be reading here and we should remain sensitive to that possibility.

:tyou:

Thank you.

 

[sleuther76]

In Canada, murder is classified as either first or second degree:[SUP][5][/SUP]

Type of murder	Nature
First degree	was planned and deliberate
was contracted
was committed against an identified peace officer
while committing or attempting to commit the hijacking of an aircraft
while committing or attempting to commit sexual assault
while committing or attempting to commit sexual assault with a weapon
while committing or attempting to commit aggravated sexual assault
while committing or attempting to commit kidnapping and forcible confinement
during a hostage taking
while committing criminal harassment
was committed during terrorist activity
while using explosives in association with a criminal organization
while committing intimidation.

But MS does not have a forcible confinement charge. That charge has only been bestowed upon Mr. DM

 

[kramkat]

If I'm following its:
- Gloves with DNA from DM, CN, and "unknown male" (MS, SS, or TB..?)
- DMs Satchel/Murse with DNA from DM (and TB?)
- Cigs at the hangar with DNA from MS and MM (but SS uncle said MS came there often; wasnt employees tho)

... no DNA linking murder to MS ... ?
... no charges for MM or SS ...?

From what I read and understand:
-Gloves with DNA - TB, CN and the unknown ended up being DM (because they came BACK to the gloves)
-DM's Satchel/Murse - it was solely his DNA, as they were profiling DM
-Cigarettes at the Hanger - DNA from MS & MM

 

[CJPRINCESS]

I haven't read any theories about why DNA was found on the undercarriage and maybe it's too gruesome for people to imagine but I suspect it may have been to help the body fit into the incinerator better. I apologize if that's too offensive to imagine but it is the most likely conclusion.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The spots were plenty but small, so my guess is was just drips through the seat bolt holes (which was done on the tarp..Hense blood found on it). The drips seem to be consistent with vehicle movement. But that would mean the seats came out (blood dripped through bolt holes) then drove truck somewhere before loading it into the trailer. The blood in the wheelwell and rear tire could be seepage thru the bottom of the door (doors are not air tight) the blood would run down the truck side and into wheelwell.

Maybe the hanger video will explanation more.

 

[Sillybilly]

But MS does not have a forcible confinement charge. That charge has only been bestowed upon Mr. DM

I'm not sure that stands as a separate charge now. DM was originally charged with FC and theft of the truck (holding charges but TB wasn't found at that time). We haven't heard of those charges since the 1st degree murder charge was laid. I think those 2 prior charges now just fall under what are known as 'essential elements' of the 1st degree murder charge.

 

[brightii]

Wow you WSers are so amazing! I have spent time now catching up on all the posts and its overwhelming.

I think today's expert is key to getting convictions for the Crown and I hope I am right in the end. Tomorrow he is expected to return to court to give more information so maybe some of the loose ends hanging in the wind tonight with be tied up nicely. I hope so.

I have no idea obviously what happened in Tim Bosma's last moments, but could it be possible he was shot or otherwise harmed with a box cutter perhaps, and the perpetrators(s) thought he was unconscious or dead, but he wasn't? Perhaps when one of them left the vehicle to go to the waiting Yukon, Tim made a dash for his life and then the driver of his truck, who I believe it is alleged to have been DM, drove over him to finish him off? I just imagine Tim would have fought back with everything in him to escape from such monsters, IMO. That would explain how his blood was found underneath the truck, IMO, as some of you have surmised here.

ALL MOO.

 

[sleuther76]

Example: Let's say MS knew they were going to steal a truck but didn't know about any plan to murder (so no premeditation of murder on his part), and MS was somehow elsewhere when TB was actually murdered (so not involved in the forcible confinement), but found out about it after the fact and helped cover it up, that would not constitute his involvement in 1st degree murder but would qualify as accessory after the fact.

Sorry for the run-on.

So let's say for the sake of argument that MS was caught off guard re: murder and was in the Yukon at the time it happened. That would not constitute 1st degree? Am I correct in that assumption as there is very little evidence to prove that MS know about or was involved in the specific act of murder. I am just trying to make sure we are not looking at both defendants as 1 ... it seems the deck has been stacked against MS given that they are being tried together and that there seems to be some animosity between the two defendants.

 

[Ironworker736]

Example: Let's say MS knew they were going to steal a truck but didn't know about any plan to murder (so no premeditation of murder on his part), and MS was somehow elsewhere when TB was actually murdered (so not involved in the forcible confinement), but found out about it after the fact and helped cover it up, that would not constitute his involvement in 1st degree murder but would qualify as accessory after the fact.

Sorry for the run-on.

Hey, don't apologize...I appreciate the info! I just hope and pray that the jury can see their way through to the proper conclusions. I mean, what happens if they can't collectively agree on who did what? Would that end with an acquittal for both?? A mistrial?? Asking because I really don't know.

 

[swedie]

Seemingly damning odds, but RP can still play the inaccuracy card. Or maybe there will be no DNA accuracy dispute. Maybe the strategy will be that DM was trying to secure evidence the guilty party/ies were trying to destroy, or that he was securing evidence because he realized he was set up to be framed...

Read the link below on widely believed non fallible DNA accuracy and how probability can be wrong.
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/accuracy-dna-matches-definitively-identify-suspects-questioned

There is much more damaging solid evidence over the DNA and blood that put DM centre stage of TB's murder. There's the videos, witness testimonies; MM, SB, IT, CN. Plus all the evidence yet to come. HTH and MOO.

 

[sleuther76]

Hey, don't apologize...I appreciate the info! I just hope and pray that the jury can see their way through to the proper conclusions. I mean, what happens if they can't collectively agree on who did what? Would that end with an acquittal for both?? A mistrial?? Asking because I really don't know.

It would be an acquittal for MS if they couldn't come to a conclusion. But let's be honest ... they are going to come to a conclusion one way or the other. One hopes that they don't judge one man based on another mans evidence ... that's not justice.

 

[Ironworker736]

It would be an acquittal for MS if they couldn't come to a conclusion. But let's be honest ... they are going to come to a conclusion one way or the other. One hopes that they don't judge one man based on another mans evidence ... that's not justice.

I think you're misunderstanding my question...as a hypothetical, what if half the jurors lay it on MS and the other half on DM? What then?

 

[kramkat]

I have no idea obviously what happened in Tim Bosma's last moments, but could it be possible he was shot or otherwise harmed with a box cutter perhaps, and the perpetrators(s) thought he was unconscious or dead, but he wasn't? Perhaps when one of them left the vehicle to go to the waiting Yukon, Tim made a dash for his life and then the driver of his truck, who I believe it is alleged to have been DM, drove over him to finish him off? I just imagine Tim would have fought back with everything in him to escape from such monsters, IMO. That would explain how his blood was found underneath the truck, IMO, as some of you have surmised here.

ALL MOO.

The crown has made it their intention to prove that TB was shot by the two accused. There is no mention about the box cutter, and I believe that it was solely used for the purpose to remove the carpet from the truck. As for the blood underneath the truck, it was said that the splatter resembles a vehicle in motion. I believe it was seepage through the cracks of the doors and bolts. All :moo: of course.

 

[swedie]

But they never said the blood was Tim's, right? Or did they?

Oh I misunderstood your post AE, but there is this HTH:

Court also saw photos of a canvas Diesel shoulder bag that was seized from Millard. A "satchel" or Indiana Jones-style bag has been mentioned several times in testimony and cross-examination, but its significance has not been fully explained.

A blood stain was found on the bag, but a DNA comparison was not possible.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamil...od-dna-evidence-links-bosma-millard-1.3469406

 

[Sillybilly]

So let's say for the sake of argument that MS was caught off guard re: murder and was in the Yukon at the time it happened. That would not constitute 1st degree? Am I correct in that assumption as there is very little evidence to prove that MS know about or was involved in the specific act of murder. I am just trying to make sure we are not looking at both defendants as 1 ... it seems the deck has been stacked against MS given that they are being tried together and that there seems to be some animosity between the two defendants.

That would be my take sleuther ... if MS was not privy to a plan to confine and murder TB AND was in the Yukon at the time of TB being confined and murdered, then he could be found Not Guilty. JMO

 

[LibTech]

I sense that I'm annoying people by being persistent about this, but isn't it odd that they didn't follow up on the satchel bloodstain DNA, or do we think they just didn't have time today?

IMO there could be some evidence that was found in the satchel and the Crown want's to prove that it was DMs satchel. In that case, the blood evidence would make sense. I agree that we might hear more on this tomorrow.

 

[swedie]

I don't think it was clarified if the bloodstain on the bag was tested and what the results were but cansleuther posted on page 16, post 231, that the canvas bag found in the Yukon is not a diesel bag. And both AC and SC said today that the bag in question was a Diesel bag found at 5 Maple Gate, not a Chevignon bag found in the Yukon. So it would be important to establish DM's connection to that bag if that blood stain was TB or if there is something else coming from that bag. Did he switch it out for a reason that week?

MOO

Many women like to change purses to suit their wardrobe and the season, so perhaps DM had a fair size collection of man purses also. MOO.

 

[Yendys]

Does anyone know if the incinerator has an electric igniter or would it require a flame source ie lighter?

 

[Gumshew]

There is much more damaging solid evidence over the DNA and blood that put DM centre stage of TB's murder. There's the videos, witness testimonies; MM, SB, IT, CN. Plus all the evidence yet to come. HTH and MOO.

Yes, of course, sum of all the parts. I'm only speculating what RP's strategy will be... him arguing the accuracy of the DNA tests is valid but I think it would be useless given all the other incriminating evidence already. So, I'm speculating if he's going to suggest his client left his DNA while he was securing evidence other/s wanted to destroy or scrambling around securing evidence because of an attempted framing. Or maybe some different strategy altogether.

My point is I'll be very surprised if RP argues the DNA accuracy thing.