Bosma Murder Trial 03.08.16 - Day 21

[Kamille]

It's been proven by circumstantial evidence. They loaded the gun: they intended to kill, not intimidate.

Glad DM has at least one fervent supporter.

That is to suggest that every armed robber intends to kill the person(s) they are robbing. I believe that every one of them will if a situation presents itself in which they deem it neccessary, but I don't believe that is always the intent when they take a loaded gun to commit a robbery.

MOO

 

[Ontario Mom]

The other thing I found curious from today's testimony is the time stamp on the video from Super Sucker showing the vehicle thought to be the Yukon traveling south at 8:46pm.

From the Super Sucker to the intersection of Book & Trinity it is a 1 minute drive. So let's be generous and assume they arrive there at 8:47, pull into the lane way and park the Yukon.

From Book and Trinity to Tim and Sharlene's driveway it's a 6 minute walk. If they just got out and walked up the road that would have placed them coming down the Bosma driveway at 8:52.

According to earlier testimony, it was 9:05 the Bate phone called Tim's phone and both Tim and DM were on their phones, presumably talking to each other, as DM and MS came walking up the driveway.

So they had plenty of time find a place to stash the Yukon, get out and walk up to the Bosma place. Nineteen minutes between the time the Yukon (presumably) was seen at Super Sucker and the time they actually arrived at the Bosmas.

The cell phone ping data lines up with this quite neatly. Red dots are Rogers towers and orange is Wind Mobile

 

[JuneBug67]

The other thing I found curious from today's testimony is the time stamp on the video from Super Sucker showing the vehicle thought to be the Yukon traveling south at 8:46pm.

From the Super Sucker to the intersection of Book & Trinity it is a 1 minute drive. So let's be generous and assume they arrive there at 8:47, pull into the lane way and park the Yukon.

From Book and Trinity to Tim and Sharlene's driveway it's a 6 minute walk. If they just got out and walked up the road that would have placed them coming down the Bosma driveway at 8:52.

According to earlier testimony, it was 9:05 the Bate phone called Tim's phone and both Tim and DM were on their phones, presumably talking to each other, as DM and MS came walking up the driveway.

So they had plenty of time find a place to stash the Yukon, get out and walk up to the Bosma place. Nineteen minutes between the time the Yukon (presumably) was seen at Super Sucker and the time they actually arrived at the Bosmas.

The cell phone ping data lines up with this quite neatly. Red dots are Rogers towers and orange is Wind Mobile

View attachment 90313

Lots of explanations I think. Searching around for the best place to pull in. Finalizing and rehearsing the plan now that they have the lay of the land. Having a cigarette to calm the nerves. Waiting for a bit more darkness. Etc.

 

[brightii]

<BBM>
Exactly...those allegations have not been presented in court, let alone proven. And I don't find it unfortunate at all that they won't hear about them, quite the contrary. Condemning a person based on unproven allegations is not justice, for the accused or for the victim.

ETA - do not read this as support for either of the accused. I am simply trying to look at the evidence objectively, not based on assumption and emotion.

I respect what you're saying, but for me it is impossible to ignore these allegations as I weigh everything that happened to TB. Fortunately, I am not a juror, and had that been a possibility I would not have been chosen due to my admitted prejudice.

The bell rang loudly in MSM about the accused and allegations of murder re WM and LB, and I would be lying to say I can no longer hear it and therefore, I do draw my own conclusions with that constant sound of ringing in my ears. The influence of these allegations cannot be escaped by me although I do understand how prejudicial they would be for the jury to hear. I know it is fundamentally wrong to wish for, but I do wonder why the victim is not afforded more rights when the accused has their rights protected above all else?

I am not able to be completely impartial about this trial. I am glad you can be and I sincerely hope the jury will be as well.

I think that Tim could have been my son, my husband, my brother, and what happened to TB affects my sense of safety in the world for myself and my loved ones, so yes, emotion does colour my opinions. If DM and MS can somehow prove their innocence in spite of all the evidence we have heard to date, and all the evidence yet to come, I am open to being convinced, but I must be honest and say that I think such a scenario is unlikely.

You may think I am not interested in justice, but I am. I want it for TB and for his family and I wish only for that outcome. FWIW, I know that my opinions will have no impact on the verdict and therefore I trust it's OK to express them here.

All MOO.

 

[SnooperDuper]

That is to suggest that every armed robber intends to kill the person(s) they are robbing. I believe that every one of them will if a situation presents itself in which they deem it neccessary, but I don't believe that is always the intent when they take a loaded gun to commit a robbery.

MOO

But not every robber has an incinerator handy. DM had an end-to-end solution: loaded gun, incinerator.

 

[JuneBug67]

The murder charges for WM and LB are MASSIVELY prejudicial. They totally colour the conclusions I've come to about DM - namely that he is a sociopathic killer. If it turns out that those charges are not supported by evidence and can't reasonably result in convictions I would have to acknowledge an injustice.

 

[Kamille]

But not every robber has an incinerator handy. DM had an end-to-end solution: loaded gun, incinerator.

Yes...he certainly armed himself with a state of the art solution to that pesky problem of how to get rid of a body once you feel the need to eliminate someone that has become a problem or an obstacle. And we are assuming, that it was purchased for just that purpose when he found himself with a body that needed disposing of. But that doesn't mean that he absolutely intended to kill the owner of the truck that he was planning on stealing. However that would certainly have been his immediate go to plan once he did find himself, yet again, with a body that needed disposing of.

MOO

 

[paris_paris]

There are many towers around Colborne St., but there is a Bell and Rogers tower much closer to Oak Park Rd. Telus has one closer and another tower labelled "all others".

Tower info at http://www.ertyu.org/steven_nikkel/cancellsites.html

I've never looked there before, but it explains why my cell signal is gawdawful at home.

 

[voominvava]

I thought it might be from across the road but I didn't see any legible street numbers. That was why I asked. I'm not familiar with that area.

Fire number is 2263.

 

[paris_paris]

View attachment 90315

Fire number is 2263.

The railway tracks right before there are atrocious. They would have had to slow right done and crawled past that camera.

 

[Ironworker736]

I respect what you're saying, but for me it is impossible to ignore these allegations as I weigh everything that happened to TB. Fortunately, I am not a juror, and had that been a possibility I would not have been chosen due to my admitted prejudice.

The bell rang loudly in MSM about the accused and allegations of murder re WM and LB, and I would be lying to say I can no longer hear it and therefore, I do draw my own conclusions with that constant sound of ringing in my ears. The influence of these allegations cannot be escaped by me although I do understand how prejudicial they would be for the jury to hear. I know it is fundamentally wrong to wish for, but I do wonder why the victim is not afforded more rights when the accused has their rights protected above all else?

I am not able to be completely impartial about this trial. I am glad you can be and I sincerely hope the jury will be as well.

I think that Tim could have been my son, my husband, my brother, and what happened to TB affects my sense of safety in the world for myself and my loved ones, so yes, emotion does colour my opinions. If DM and MS can somehow prove their innocence in spite of all the evidence we have heard to date, and all the evidence yet to come, I am open to being convinced, but I must be honest and say that I think such a scenario is unlikely.

You may think I am not interested in justice, but I am. I want it for TB and for his family and I wish only for that outcome. FWIW, I know that my opinions will have no impact on the verdict and therefore I trust it's OK to express them here.

All MOO.

I can appreciate everything you have stated, but what if the actual truth of the matter turns out to be that one (or both) of the accused really didn't have any knowledge that this was going to be the final outcome? Not saying I do or don't believe that, just asking what if. So far, the evidence shows that a theft was a very likely objective for both and that both were involved in a despicable attempt to cover up the eventual killing of an innocent man, but do we really have definitive proof that they actually set out to kill? I don't think we do. Not yet. We surely do have a ton of opinion and speculation.
I think some people here are underestimating just how grand the reasonable doubt burden really is. I do have faith in the Crown, they are a highly capable team. If DM and MS truly did intend to kill, I hope they pay dearly for it. But what if one or both never had that intention? It's fine to have the opinion that they did, but that is all it is at this point.
One part of me really wants both to be locked away forever because they were both involved in this, no doubt about that. But does it really serve justice to mete out this punishment if one was, let's say, just along for the ride. Again, don't crucify me for saying this, I just want to see all reasonable doubt eliminated. Ultimately, it will come down to what the jury believes, as this case is almost entirely circumstantial evidence.
We all want justice for the Bosmas. Don't ever think that I don't believe that.

I'll just shut up now...sorry if I've offended anyone.

 

[Kamille]

The murder charges for WM and LB are MASSIVELY prejudicial. They totally colour the conclusions I've come to about DM - namely that he is a sociopathic killer. If it turns out that those charges are not supported by evidence and can't reasonably result in convictions I would have to acknowledge an injustice.

I think for me, just as an observer and knowing that those charges are pending, it means the difference between a situation that got out of control and an "accidental" shooting, and a person who would not think twice about eliminating an obstacle and may have decided to take the path of least resistance because there is no moral code in his thought process.

MOO

 

[JuneBug67]

I think for me, just as an observer and knowing that those charges are pending, it means the difference between a situation that got out of control and an "accidental" shooting, and a person who would not think twice about eliminating an obstacle and may have decided to take the path of least resistance because there is no moral code in his thought process.

MOO

Yes. It also puts qualities that some find appealing in DM <modsnip> in a sinister light for me. If I didn't have the alleged other history I might be perplexed about an adventurous man of some privilege who has an easygoing nature, a reasonable intelligence and an expressed moral distance from the crimes. Instead I just see sociopathic manipulation, superficial charm, entitlement and a lack of any realistic long term goals or plans.

 

[brightii]

I can appreciate everything you have stated, but what if the actual truth of the matter turns out to be that one (or both) of the accused really didn't have any knowledge that this was going to be the final outcome? Not saying I do or don't believe that, just asking what if. So far, the evidence shows that a theft was a very likely objective for both and that both were involved in a despicable attempt to cover up the eventual killing of an innocent man, but do we really have definitive proof that they actually set out to kill? I don't think we do. Not yet. We surely do have a ton of opinion and speculation.
I think some people here are underestimating just how grand the reasonable doubt burden really is. I do have faith in the Crown, they are a highly capable team. If DM and MS truly did intend to kill, I hope they pay dearly for it. But what if one or both never had that intention? It's fine to have the opinion that they did, but that is all it is at this point.
One part of me really wants both to be locked away forever because they were both involved in this, no doubt about that. But does it really serve justice to mete out this punishment if one was, let's say, just along for the ride. Again, don't crucify me for saying this, I just want to see all reasonable doubt eliminated. Ultimately, it will come down to what the jury believes, as this case is almost entirely circumstantial evidence.
We all want justice for the Bosmas. Don't ever think that I don't believe that.

I agree that there is a lot of speculation about whether or not the killing of TB was premeditated or planned by one or both of the accused, but as I understand it, that is a moot point anyway in terms of a finding of guilt in this case.

I don't know how to include Kamille's quote here when replying to you, but I agree with her take on things in her post # 358.

Kamille's post # 358: "I think for me, just as an observer and knowing that those charges are pending, it means the difference between a situation that got out of control and an "accidental" shooting, and a person who would not think twice about eliminating an obstacle and may have decided to take the path of least resistance because there is no moral code in his thought process.

MOO"

I hope it is OK to copy and paste here.

There is no doubt in my mind that everyone contributing here on this site wants justice for TB, and that includes you too, IMO. Some may think justice will be an acquittal for DM or MS or both. While I don't see that as likely given the evidence presented by the Crown, (and though not relevant to the jury, in context of the other murder charges which I can't erase from my mind), I do believe that in the end, whatever the jury decides, will be just.

All MOO.

 

[JuneBug67]

I can appreciate everything you have stated, but what if the actual truth of the matter turns out to be that one (or both) of the accused really didn't have any knowledge that this was going to be the final outcome? Not saying I do or don't believe that, just asking what if. So far, the evidence shows that a theft was a very likely objective for both and that both were involved in a despicable attempt to cover up the eventual killing of an innocent man, but do we really have definitive proof that they actually set out to kill? I don't think we do. Not yet. We surely do have a ton of opinion and speculation.
I think some people here are underestimating just how grand the reasonable doubt burden really is. I do have faith in the Crown, they are a highly capable team. If DM and MS truly did intend to kill, I hope they pay dearly for it. But what if one or both never had that intention? It's fine to have the opinion that they did, but that is all it is at this point.
One part of me really wants both to be locked away forever because they were both involved in this, no doubt about that. But does it really serve justice to mete out this punishment if one was, let's say, just along for the ride. Again, don't crucify me for saying this, I just want to see all reasonable doubt eliminated. Ultimately, it will come down to what the jury believes, as this case is almost entirely circumstantial evidence.
We all want justice for the Bosmas. Don't ever think that I don't believe that.

I'll just shut up now...sorry if I've offended anyone.

Of course it's not offensive. All very reasonable. I think the difference for me is that it's a reasonable assumption that it was not a surprise to either man that a gun was brought to the test drive in what I think was a pretty clearly premeditated theft. It's not reasonable to me that one or both expected to relieve Tim of his truck and his phone just by overpowering him manually with fists or force. Given that I think it's fair to assume that the weapon was intended to threaten and control Tim at a minimum it was an inherently dangerous situation. They both signed on to a situation where the potential for deadly violence was so foreseeable that you couldn't really be just 'along for the ride'. It might have been a tragically stupid decision by a person much less culpable in some ways, but I understand why the law does not, cannot and should not see it as such.

 

[Ontario Mom]

There are many towers around Colborne St., but there is a Bell and Rogers tower much closer to Oak Park Rd. Telus has one closer and another tower labelled "all others".

Tower info at http://www.ertyu.org/steven_nikkel/cancellsites.html

I've never looked there before, but it explains why my cell signal is gawdawful at home.

Those cell tower maps are VERY handy in many cases. Thankfully, most criminals don't study how LE solves crimes, so they don't know how to cover their tracks. In our digital age, between cell phones and video surveillance, this gives LE a lot more tools that are much better and far more reliable than "eyewitnesses" have ever been.

 

[canali]

will be most interesting to see how the lawyers of Dellen and Mark
take the gloves off against one another in the coming weeks...and even
if either or both of their clients will take the stand to offer up their 'versions' of what went down.
:slapfight:
....that I can't wait to read about, along with seeing SS and CN take the stand
for the crown (since if they didn't comply then it was to be 'bye bye' to jail for a much longer time).

 

[brightii]

Ironworker736: FWIW, I have not found anything you've expressed in your posts to be offensive. Please don't interpret my opinions of the case to be any reason for you to not feel free to express yours.

Sometimes I get the sense that what I post here may not be accepted or agreed with and that's fine with me. You can trust that whatever I do post it is an honest expression of how I view things about this case in that moment. I would not want to feel inhibited about being able to share what I'm thinking. Often, due to being influenced here by the opinions and speculations of others, I change or adjust my thinking.

Thanks for your feedback. It is appreciated.

All MOO.

 

[Ontario Mom]

Premeditated, accidental, spontaneous? I admit I waffle back and forth based on all the evidence, testimony and my pre-conceived ideas about the character of both DM and MS. Much the same way I've waffled back and forth between which one actually pulled the trigger.

I'm not sure we'll ever have the answers to either of those questions. I just hope that what the Crown intends to prove, is actually proven to the jury beyond a reasonable doubt and they find them both guilty, as I believe they both are, 100%.

The Crown intends to prove that on this date in the late evening hours, Tim Bosma was killed in his truck, shot by the two accused at close range, while on a test drive with his truck; his body then incinerated hours later by the two accused.

 

[jash]

Adam Carter
Mar 8 2016 12:10 PM
In the meantime, here's my recap from this morning:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/news/gun-likely-fired-inside-tim-bosma-s-truck-1.3481024

***Since it appears to me that the gun may be sitting on the table in the office of the Millard house, I'd love to know what was considered too prejudicial to be shown that has been blocked out in that picture.


MOO

Good question. My first thought is drugs, but not sure if they'd redact something like that.